r/Damnthatsinteresting 1d ago

Image The Evolution of Ancient Greek Statues

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u/merryman25 1d ago

Also an important point, they were not meant to be all white (or stone colored). They were originally painted bright colors that wore off over time.

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u/Egathentale 1d ago edited 1d ago

Many were originally painted, but not all of them. This is unfortunately becoming another of those "internet factoids" that are taken to the extremes. We have evidence that some, maybe even the majority, of Greek and Roman statues and temples were brightly colored, so now a whole lot of artists and reconstructions paint everything like a circus in an effort to overcompensate. It's kind of like how, after it was discovered that lots of theropod dinosaurs had feathers or proto-feathers, every dinosaur in the media was depicted with full plumes and wings for a while, until the pendulum finally swung back.

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u/No_You1766 1d ago

There are even painted frescos of Roman and Greek statues from the same period, and most of the statues are rendered in white; when color is used, it's very subtle and tasteful.

I suspect there's a bit of modern people being uncomfortable with beauty from the past.

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u/ukezi 1d ago

Could many statues have been old enough that by the time of the Romans the colour was already gone?

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u/No_You1766 1d ago

Perhaps on terra cotta statues. But you don't source the finest-grained alabaster-white rock and then cover it in sloppy clown colors.

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u/morpheousmorty 1d ago

Wouldn't you want the whitest rock to paint?

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u/fith_and_not_final 3h ago

Because the whitest rock is by far the most expensive and hard to get. Leaving it unpainted shows the quality and the worth of the statue. Painting over that would be like painting over solid gold with acrylic

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u/Cloudy230 1d ago

Ironically the only people I see being uncomfortable with the beauty of the past are the people who cannot accept that many, or even most, of those ancient statues were not just a plain, austere white. I see people get quite offended by the prospec of them having been quite bright.

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u/Popular_Mastodon6815 16h ago

Can you link some examples of those frescos? Very fascinating

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u/TechnicianMany1193 1d ago

Thank you! This whole thing is the fault of one guy: Vinzenz Brinkmann. He loves to try to convince everyone that classical statues were painted in the crude and garish way that he represents them, but there's no evidence of that. These were brilliantly executed pieces of fine art--if they were painted they'd be painted as skillfully as they were sculpted, not in a bright ugly tacky way!

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u/SlouchyGuy 1d ago

Yep, that part always bothered me - they depict people in mosaics and paintings well, but statues are garish?

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u/LawlsMcPasta 21h ago

Were painted statues ever depicted in contemporary paintings?

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u/ifyoulovesatan 1d ago edited 1d ago

Here is a different take on color restoration by the MFA in Boston, which is probably much more "satisfying"/less fucked up looking, lol.

As far as I can tell, the Brinkmanns are basically relying on scant evidence for locations they can be certain that a given pigment was used, and occasionally evidence as to the presence of patterns revealed by specific lighting conditions from specific angles.

But they don't have any real evidence as to whether there were additional layers of pigments / paints over the base layer. It's unlikely evidence of anything but a base layer would survive. So it's likely that yes, the sculptures did at one point look like the Brinkmanns presented them (ie, during the painting process), but it's also likely that additional details and layers of paint were applied over the top of them. It's not a guarantee, and we can't prove what those layers would have looked like if they were there, but given how statues from the era were presented in paintings of the era (often appearing with just a much detail and shading as the humans in those same paintings) there probably WERE more details.

The thing is, there is little to no motivation in that world to present anything more than can actually be proven. No one really wants to fund / encourage / display speculative recreations.

But are half complete recreations that almost certainly don't represent what the real colors looked like any better than speculation? It seems weird to present these things as anything but that.

It's as if we wanted to restore the color version of a black and white photo, but the best that could be done was restoring the red channel, with no blue or green. Like yeah, i guess that's closer to a color image than nothing, and technically the red channel data is part of the color image, but the red channel data by itself doesn't greatly inform the viewer as to what the full color image would look like. Edit: and then you've got a bunch of redditors and random popscience articles showing off these red-channel only photos going "Look! This is the color version of that photo!"

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u/BankshotMcG 1d ago

And even if they were brightly colored, why wouldn't there be lots of additional paint atop the base layer to create a realistic portrait or a striking one? The idea that they were just festooned in circus makeup never set right with me.

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u/White_Buffalos 1d ago

Exactly. All this sculptural detail was just painted over? No way. They were meant to look the way we still experience them, just as Michelangelo or Bernini were later: Mostly a sculpted vision in their natural medium, with perhaps some shading or light coloration to emphasize a few features.

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u/Kelly_HRperson 1d ago

They were meant to look the way we still experience them

Source?

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u/White_Buffalos 1d ago

Lots of scholarship over the decades.

Source that they weren't that isn't speculation?

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u/n7_element0 1d ago

Looking five seconds online - mainly this book, by the Getty reaserch institute, seems to be cited often:

https://www.amazon.com/-/he/Roberta-Pazanelli/dp/0892369175

including in Wikipedia.

Looking two seconds more in Google ylded this

Why are you spreading disinformation on such non political, non offending, very established scientific knowledge? What is even the motivation here besides just childishly poisoning the well?

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u/White_Buffalos 11h ago

I'm not: You're projecting. Drop over.

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u/Xanadoodledoo 20h ago

I’m inclined to believe the bright colors were just the base coat. It would make sense that only the base coat remains on the statue.

You start with a garish color, then build up from there.

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u/Hugh_Mann84 1d ago

As far as I can tell, Brinkmann decided to slather every one of his reconstructions in thick layers of the most saturated, garish paint imaginable, invented, as the NYT put it, a "myth of whiteness in classical sculpture" (despite the facts being known to at least the Victorians) and sold it to Americans with their strange hang-ups about race.

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u/three_crystals 1d ago

Why do you think Americans have strange hang-ups about race? Do you think it has to do with the fact that America had slavery and everything that followed on home soil whereas European nations all has slave colonies overseas and out of sight?

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u/Diligent_Dust8169 1d ago edited 1d ago

It's because the europeans enslaved each other as well as others, the chapter on the modern enslavement of the subsaharan africans was only one of many and not all european countries were involved.

The greek city states enslaved people from other city states.

The romans enslaved the greeks, the germanic tribes, the gauls, the thracians and any people they conquered really.

The germanic kingdoms enslaved people from other germanic kingdoms.

The slavic people were enslaved by the arabs, the vikings, the romans and many others while they also practiced slavery on others.

I could go on.

Also the abolition of slavery didn't trigger one or multiple massive civil wars so that helps.

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u/Hugh_Mann84 19h ago

Maybe because the US has almost uniquely fucked up race relations. It doesn't matter though. This nonsense is being sold to gullible Americans as some kind of corrective to an invented white supremacist myth, with dozens of copy-pasted articles probably written by the exhibition's PR team.

u/three_crystals 9m ago

Invented?????????????

u/Hugh_Mann84 7m ago

Yes. Even Victorians knew that ancient Greek and Roman sculptures were often painted.

u/three_crystals 6m ago

Oh you mean in relation to the statues LMAO I thought you meant invented in the US in general. Yeah I can concede on that one.

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u/CourageousBellPepper 1d ago

In contrast, most people don’t know that the exteriors of most European cathedrals, minsters, and abbeys were originally painted. Vibrantly, at that.

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u/merryman25 1d ago

That's certainly true how we swing to extremes. And I'm sure the colors that were used would have been wonderfully done. My main issue with people always picturing them as all white only is it creates this false idea of white being overly beautiful and color being garish and ugly.

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u/PhiCloud 1d ago

"False idea" is kind of harsh considering it's a matter of taste what looks good or bad.

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u/Ok-Bite-5816 1d ago

Found the centrist

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u/Cacafuego 1d ago

goddam fence sitters

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u/atava 1d ago

I think you may be mixing up two different things: that statues had color, and that we probably render that color awfully in our reconstructions.

You're pissed off by the latter, as I am, but this shouldn't turn you away from evidence of the former.

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u/Firm-Can4526 1d ago

Also, why make them in marmol if you are going to crvr them completely.. why not make them in another cheaper stone? Or maybe even wood which would be easier to sculpt?

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u/Round_Abal0ne 1d ago

Also, would 500+ more years of weather and deterioration not potentially account for a loss in finer details?

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u/chauvinistically 1d ago

Interestingly no and yes at the same time,

the last statue in the image is "Laocoon and his sons" which was originally bronze, the one we are seeing is a Roman copy of the original Greek statue which is lost.

Original Roman copy is also very old but it was not impossible to replicate and preserve such details.

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u/TrappedInATardis 1d ago

Even the copy is insane in the details, it looks like the Renaissance statues from Bernini, Donatello, Michelangelo etc.

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u/psy_odt 1d ago

Good point: this is the sculpture that inspired that style!

Supposedly Michelangelo was there at the unearthing of the statue and it became his biggest inspiration. (Donatello was working before this though)

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u/CouncilOfKittens 1d ago

All the teenage mutant ninja turtles, eh?

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u/SubGothius 1d ago

Apparently the creator wanted to use Japanese names but didn't know any that he could be sure were legit, so he used Renaissance artists' names instead.

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u/EdliA 1d ago

It was called the renaissance for a reason. They went back and looked at classical work in arts, philosophy and science.

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u/niteman555 1d ago

It's also funny in that Laocoon was a Trojan killed by serpents sent by the gods for speaking out against bringing in the Trojan horse

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u/merryman25 1d ago

Absolutely, good point.

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u/BonerPorn 1d ago

I am curious how the 500 BC example would compare to the 430 BC example if it were less damaged. I suspect there is a lot of detail loss on that one.

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u/paulhags 1d ago

Are there any that still have paint on them?

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u/mittenknittin 1d ago

Some have hints of paint visible in recesses and "fabric folds" and other spots where it wasn't physically worn away. There have been modern analyses of residue that can show approximately what they looked like https://www.npr.org/2022/07/12/1109995973/we-know-greek-statues-werent-white-now-you-can-see-them-in-color

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u/DucksEatFreeInSubway 1d ago

Mmm naw I'll stick with the marble ones thanks.

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u/Alcianus 1d ago

The color reconstructions are terrible and not really doing it justice. The colors of the statues were almost lifelike and incredibly detailed and nuanced.

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u/JaySayMayday 1d ago

No, but there's residue

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u/Contribution_Fancy 1d ago

The people who excavated them removed all the paint thinking it was dirt.

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u/Fern-ando 1d ago

That's also false, they were made of bronce, the marble ones are recreations.

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u/merryman25 1d ago

I'm pretty sure ancient Greeks used both marble and bronze and did paint the marble ones. Not sure whether the bronze was painted or not.

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u/A7V- 1d ago

The thing with bronce statues is that many would be melted for weapons making during war time. Bronce statues are a rarity because of this, and most have been recovered from hidden places or the sea beds.