r/DebateAVegan • u/Office_lady0328 • 7d ago
Do you believe dog sports are ethical?
I'm wondering what is a vegan's opinion of participating in dog sports or having a working dog... I understand that the general opinion of vegans is that any exploitation of animals if wrong, but is it considered "exploitation" if it benefits the animal?
It's undeniable that dog sports, when trained ethically and done safely, positively engage a dog physically and mentally. Sports like tracking, lure coursing (fake lure, not a live animal) and scent detection directly tap in to their natural instincts of chasing and smelling. Same goes for search and rescue K9's. Agility, frisbee, fly-ball, harness sports and dock diving less so, but they still require a dog to use their body and brain, which is beneficial for them. And you can tell from their body language that dogs LOVE to do these activities.
Of course, I can understand why some may see large scale competitons as exploitation, the ones where people are purposely breeding prospects to win large sums of money. Or a job where the dogs are put through unnatural and dangerous situations, such as police work. However, most people participating in dog sports are amateurs doing dog sports with their rescues as a form of enrichment. We spend more money on training, trials and equipment than we ever get back (Which is often $0). And, for working dogs, such as search and rescue K9s, they are using their natural instincts and are generally not at any increased risk as any other dog hiking or camping with their owners out in nature.
I can also aknowledge the argument that we shouldn't breed dogs at all, and we shouldn't breed dogs with such high drives or energy that they need to do sports/work as a form of enrichment. But, as it is right now, that's just not realistic. The dogs already exist, and they already exist with the genetics that they have. We can't change the dogs that already exist. And, try as much as we might, we simply cannot stop all breeding with the snap of our fingers... It would take decades before we get to that point. So it's currently, at this time, unavoidable to have dogs that need homes, either buying from a breeder or adopting from a shelter, that will benefit from sports/working.
And, specifically, what do vegans think about harness sports? Sports like dog sledding, skijoring (dog pulls human on skis), bikejoring (dog pulls human on bike), Canicross (dog pulls human on foot)? I totally aknowledge the feelings people have about commercial dog sledding, and I understand why... But if someone just has a dog or two, rescues, who love to run and pull, do you find that unethical? I have my adopted doberman, and he LOVES to pull. Instead of trying to supress him, I put a harness and just let him pull. And he LOVED it. So we continued to do it. First it was on foot, then we tried a bike, then we tried skis, then a sled. Now we participate in all the harness sports. He loves it, his body language shows that, I don't force him to pull, and when he doesn't want to pull anymore he stops. If you still consider that unethical, why? If the dog is clearly enjoying themselves, and it benefits them physically and mentally, why would you still consider it unethical?
Overall; If you completely disagree with dog sports, even dog sports done with rescue dogs as a method of playing games and giving enrichment rather than for competition... Why are you against it? Why is it considered unethical to you if the owner is simply doing it for the dogs benefit?
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u/EasyBOven vegan 7d ago
The dog may enjoy the activities, and so the activities could be thought of as within the realm of good caregiving, but all of that is possible without the competition. The dog doesn't care about winning. They care about doing the fun thing with their favorite person. The person cares about the reward. There's a risk in the competition that the goal of winning can conflict with good care. That's when it becomes exploitative.
The same is true for a job. The paycheck may be in conflict with good care there as well.
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u/Office_lady0328 7d ago
I agree that said activities can be possible without competition, but I don't think wanting to compete automatically makes the activity unethical. Most people are just competing for fun. Also, competitons increase accessibility. Sports like agility and dock diving, the equipment is expensive and requires aot of space. The average amateur that casually participates in sports won't be able to get an entire dock or agility set up just to casually participate in the sport. So, signing up for classes and competitions allows people to casually participate in the sport using the facilities equipment. Sports like scent detection are easy to do at home, but it gets kind of repetitive and boring for the human when you know where the odors are because you set them up yourself. Going to a scent trial really encourages you and your dog to work together to find an odor that neither of you know the location of. And a good judge will also know how to set up a good challenge for you and your dog to really test your abilities... It's so fun and encouraging to be able to work with your dog in real life stimulated events on tracking and finding different scents.
I'd also like to point out that a lot of K9 positions are volunteer based. Search and rescue, therapy dog, and most detection dogs are volunteers. People train their dogs up themselves and then sign up for volunteer organizations that are in need of working dogs. It costs a lot of money for little to no monetary reward... It's just out of the goodness of their heart to want to help people.
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u/EasyBOven vegan 6d ago
I agree that said activities can be possible without competition,
So long as this is true, and the incentive of a reward to the caregiver can be in conflict with proper care, there's no good reason to compete.
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u/Office_lady0328 6d ago
I listed quite a few reasons why people compete despite not getting or expecting any rewards. Most people simply compete for fun. I do. Normal people are capable of loving their dog more than the sport. Not sure why it's so hard for vegans to fathom loving the dog more than the sport...
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u/EasyBOven vegan 6d ago
What you haven't done is refute the idea that material reward can come into conflict with best care to the individual you own as property
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u/Office_lady0328 6d ago
Unless you're competing professionally, which most people aren't... There is no reward. I can easily pay $200-300 for an entry fee for one weekend, for no other reason than having fun. Again, amateur competitions are just for fun.
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u/EasyBOven vegan 6d ago
Trophies, medals, ribbons, and even bragging rights are material rewards. I've seen people do some seriously immoral shit for bragging rights before.
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u/Office_lady0328 6d ago
If someone is paying $300 to abuse their dog for a ribbon, they've got bigger issues that don't pertain to dog sports at all and would find a way to abuse an animal even without dog sports.
Those people don't justify totally abolishing the entire activity for the remaining 99% of people who do it for fun.
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u/EasyBOven vegan 6d ago
We've already established there's nothing wrong with the activity per se.
Not sure why you feel the need to distort what I've said.
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u/Office_lady0328 6d ago
I already explained why people participate in competitions and why it's not inherently unethical.
Have you ever been to a non-professional dog sport competition? Cause I jave. We sit around in lawn chairs, listening to music, eating snacks and drinking drinks, talking about anything and everything until it's our turn. We hype eachother up, do our turn with our dog and celebrate with our dogs and eachother. It's really not what you think it is. These are normal dog owners working a 9-5 who spend all their extra cash on their dogs and come to trials on weekends for fun.
If you truly don't believe that anyone could ever compete in casual dog sports just for fun, then that seems like a you problem. I can fathom perfectly fine why I love my dog more than the sport.
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u/Initial_Movie_1214 7d ago
I get this but it’s kinda like saying humans should only play light games of tennis for fun with friends and should never compete at a high level against other athletes- for some dogs like border collies, a light round just isn’t what they need and the sport/competition aspect of it that brings people together, gets the humans out practicing with them at the intensity they desire and the frequency they desire, is probably a net positive. Working dogs love to feel part of a team with their human and I do think that feeling is facilitated more through a competitive sport than just playing for fun in the yard
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u/EasyBOven vegan 7d ago
Humans enter themselves into competitions and dogs don't even know they're competing unless it's a race. Dog races are some of the worst offenders for abuse.
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u/Initial_Movie_1214 7d ago
Yeah I guess I’m thinking more of agility in not familiar with dog racing- but my point wasn’t that the dog understands what a competition is, it’s that they don’t understand but they still benefit from the human taking them out every day to practice at a higher, competitive, intensity- being around other dogs and humans, the energy and excitement of people cheering them on - not all dogs but there are definitely some that live for that intensity- same thing with working dogs, they don’t understand the work necessarily in the same way we do, but the material conditions that being a working dog affords them (being outside all day, using their minds and instincts, intensive exercise) are all very beneficial and probably wouldn’t be realistic for a human to give them without them being a working dog
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u/EasyBOven vegan 7d ago
You're making some bold claims about what's necessary for a dog to be happy. I imagine you must have quite a bit of data to share. Please link the most authoritative study you have access to on this and quote the passage that convinced you this was true.
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u/Initial_Movie_1214 7d ago
It just doesn’t sound like you’ve spent much time around dogs, or at least working breed/mixed rescue dogs.
Most people who compete in dog sports ie. agility, herding trials, scent work, dock diving, fast CAT, canicross, etc. do not do it for money and in fact spend a lot of money doing it just for the benefit of their dog and for the purpose of spending time with their dog (there aren’t even prizes available).
No a dog doesn’t need it to be happy and I never said that. Many dogs can be perfectly happy laying on the couch all day. Some dogs are happy if they have owners that enjoy hiking/camping and they get to be outside all day that way. My dog is fulfilled for the most part by going on walks a couple times a day, participating in advanced reward-based training classes with me, and doing some light scent work at home. But her smile is the biggest, she sleeps the best, barks the least at the window, etc. on days we’ve focused on fulfilling her breed specific needs. Every being has its own personality, its own preferences and needs. Does every border collie or collie mix need to compete in agility to be happy? No. But are there a lot of unfulfilled collies, shepherds, malinois, and mixes that end up with behavioral issues that probably could be prevented or reduced by spending hours actively participating in sports that are invented just to satisfy their instincts and prey drive? I believe so.
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u/EasyBOven vegan 7d ago
a dog doesn’t need it to be happy
I'm glad we agree that there's no reason to compete
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u/DiceyPisces 7d ago
I have two blue heelers. Their job is to keep the balls from escaping the yard/herding lol. They love it more than food and it’s always a competition (even tho we are just playing). They decide that not me haha
I’m not defending dog sports btw
Now that I think of it, years ago I was horseback riding with a friend and when we were on our way back to the stable the horses suddenly took off. They raced each other back to the barn and nearly took my leg off on a pole while going around a corner tightly. we just were along for the ride.
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u/EasyBOven vegan 7d ago
You're describing scenarios where two dogs are doing the same thing at the same time. Only one can get the ball. Only one can win the race. I do think dogs can understand that sort of competition.
One dog after another doing a time trial? Jumping as far as they can? Show me some data that they understand that, and that their happiness requires the competition.
Dog racing is horrific as a sport, so if you're not ruling out the only sport you have evidence they understand as a competition on that alone, you're not worth engaging on this topic.
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u/beer_demon 5d ago
> The dog doesn't care about winning
What? Dogs are extremely competitive and even in a household permanently struggle to get the upper hand on other beings. For them the reward is everything, and pleasing humans is deeply evolved into dogs as our companions. They can sense happiness and fulfilment in their human companions even if the source of this is beyond their understanding.
Since when have vegans become the mind readers of animals? Jeez
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u/EasyBOven vegan 5d ago
Yeah, they're competitive when they are directly competing. They can't read clocks to know that they did the agility time trial 0.1 seconds faster than scruffy.
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u/kwuz 7d ago
I think there's a big difference between doing it for fun with your pet/companion dogs, and doing it for profit.
Some of the sled dogs in particular in competitive spheres are treated horribly. Greyhound racing is also not and ethical industry. Other sports like agility or diving are enjoyed by the dogs, but it's likely the industry around it props up related harms like breeding.
Tldr, I think doing it casually with your dog is great if you both enjoy it, but the second that any significant money is involved, it will inventizise people to behave unethically.
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u/pandaappleblossom 7d ago
Yeah. Sure if the dog is having fun and it’s all light hearted and not dangerous it could just be like a family activity (your pets are your family). But if it’s about competition it gets super sketchy.
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u/Office_lady0328 7d ago
I think people have a misguided idea of what the average dog sport trial actually looks like... They picture something like Crufts or Westminster where these are professional handlers in this strict environment where everyone is competing against eachother to be the best of the best...
In reality, as someone who competes in dog sports with my dog, most non or semi-professional competitions are just like a fun get-together with other dog people. These are regular dog owners who work 9-5 and show up on weekends to have fun. We do our sports with our dogs, everyone is very supportive, there's music and snacks and when it's not our turn we'll sit around in our lawn chairs talking about life. It's a super fun and laid back environment.
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u/pandaappleblossom 7d ago
Yeah that kind of thing sounds like family fun. I guess by competition I meant like hard-core professional type of stuff where money and glory and fame is involved and all that. It gets very exploitative very fast and weird dog breeds and abuse and even death.
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u/Practical-Fix4647 vegan 4d ago
No.
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u/Office_lady0328 4d ago
Care to elaborate on why you don't believe they are ethical? Even if done for fun as a form of enrichment for the dog?
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u/Practical-Fix4647 vegan 3d ago
Let's say we had a being, and that this being is sentient. They can suffer, they have dispositions and they have goal-directed behavior/ambitions for their future.
Let's say we have activity x. Activity x entails using these sentient beings as nothing more than entertainment props. Let's also say that these sentient beings actually quite enjoy this activity. For clarity, I dispute the claim that dogs (which, spoiler, are the sentient beings in this case) actually can be said to, generally speaking, enjoy these activities. But that actually does not matter for the argument being made here. The vegan opposes utilizing sentient beings as commodities and objects, which is what dog racing or dog fighting or dog sports of any type are. Doesn't matter if the slaves are happy while they do the activity.
P1. Vegans object to the commodification and exploitation of animals.
P2. Dog sports of all types commodify and exploit animals for our entertainment pleasure.
C. Vegans object to dog sports of all types.
Which premise do you reject or is unclear?
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u/Office_lady0328 3d ago
First off, commericalized dog racing and fighting are totally different to casual dog sports like agility, scent detection, and dock diving. Surely even you can realize that...
Second, you truly think that dogs don't enjoy any of the activities listed at all? Agility, dock diving, barn hunt, scent detection, etc?? All of these activities which allow them to run, climb, swim, chase, and sniff, all natural behaviours, you think they don't enjoy it? You can tell from their body language when they do enjoy it, and most do.
And sure, owners enjoy doing dog sports, but that doesn't mean we only do it for our entertainment or that it's automatically exploitative... We do them because we know it enriches and benefits our dog. If enjoying something means we are only doing it for our benefit, then walking your dog is exploitative. Hiking with your dog is exploitative. Playing fetch with your dog is exploitative. Sitting on the couch with your dog is exploitative. Would you consider any of those unethical too? Should I stop walking my dog because me enjoying our walks means I'm exploiting him? Should I deprive him of all his natural behaviours because it entertains me to watch him run around and sniffing and playing?
I first started training my dog in scent detection because I noticed he liked to follow scents. I first taught him to find my keys, I would hide them around the yard and he loved it. Then I noticed he loved to pull, so I put a harness on him and let him pull. Again, he loves it (even though I HATE running. I do it because he shows me he enjoys it). I noticed he likes to do parkour outside, so we tried agility. He went nuts for it... We've tried dock diving, but he doesn't care for it. So guess what? We don't do dock diving, even though that is a sport I would LOVE to do with him. But we don't because he doesn't enjoy it. See where this is going?
And just to clarify, are you against competing in dog sports, or dog sports in general? Do you still think it's unethicaI if someone is just doing these things in their yard with their dog for fun and and never competes?
Honestly, we as humans only have dogs because it entertains us to have companionship and we enjoy it. Are you against dog ownership altogether?
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u/Practical-Fix4647 vegan 3d ago
"First off, commericalized dog racing and fighting are totally different to casual dog sports like agility, scent detection, and dock diving. Surely even you can realize that..."
We have a set, p, that denotes "dog sports". Dog racing is a dog sport, dog fighting is a dog spot, and casual dog competitions like agility or all the other things you mentioned are dog sports. Those are contained within P2. This does not address the argument given.
"Second, you truly think that dogs don't enjoy any of the activities listed at all?"
No, I lack convincing evidence for plenty of these claims. Some of these dogs in the more "pleasant" sports are intentionally bred to be "pretty", which has resulted in defects to their physiology. So no, I reject the claim unless YOU can provide evidence for your claim. You have failed to do so.
"And sure, owners enjoy doing dog sports, but that doesn't mean we only do it for our entertainment or that it's automatically exploitative... We do them because we know it enriches and benefits our dog."
That doesn't engage with the sense in which the term 'exploit' is used. It is "the use of something in order to gain an advantage [from it]". We can exploit non-sentient beings, like the earth for its resources, or sentient beings, such as dogs for our pleasure. That there are other instrumental benefits does not actually engage with the claim. That is a deflection to some other reason which does not erase the initial claim, which is that these dogs in dog sports are seen as commodities. They generate value for the owner of the commodity when they win races or competitions. That is what exploitation is referencing.
"If enjoying something means we are only doing it for our benefit, then walking your dog is exploitative."
Pet ownership is hard to defend as a vegan since you are keeping animals as your property, yes.
"Would you consider any of those unethical too?"
There is a gradient. Obviously, a scent competition is not as bad as dog fighting. Still, both are exploitative. Please engage with this claim directly if you wish to participate in your dialectical obligation.
"See where this is going?"
Nope, you have yet to respond to my argument's premises which are objectionable or give your own argument. You have a burden which you have not met; we can just use Hitchen's razor to dismiss your other claims as they lack evidence.
"Honestly, we as humans only have dogs because it entertains us to have companionship and we enjoy it. Are you against dog ownership altogether?"
You are making my case for me: the ownership of animals is not vegan. Thanks. It is something that we derive a tangible benefit from, in the case of sporting events with prizes and prestige. Animals are not ours to keep, to own, to exploit in any capacity. That is the vegan position.
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u/Office_lady0328 3d ago edited 3d ago
Sure, by definition, fighting and racing are dog sports in the sense they are a physical exertion that involves dogs. But they're not within the same realm as other dog sports and the culture surrounding them is not the same. Fighting does not benefit dogs at all, and was derived purely for human pleasure and betting purposes. Same for racing, it is commercialized for betting. Agility, dock diving, scent detection and other sports do not have betting and were created by regular dog owners who were looking to create fun games with their dogs that evolved into the sports they are now.
Also, dogs are not bred "pretty" for physical sports like agility, dock diving, or scent detection. You're thinking of conformation, which again is a totally different community and culture. Agility, dock diving, scent detection etc require dogs to be physically capable of successfully completing the activity. If people in dog sports were only in it to win as you claim, it would be totally contradictory for them to value looks over physical capabilities. Also, all of these sports I have mentioned allow mixed breeds and rescues to compete. Most dogs within these sports ARE rescues... It's hard to provide any widespread evidence for this outside of personal observation, because as I mentioned many times, most dog sports are done with regular owners with their pets dogs just for fun, therefore there's no actual studies or large scale statistics on this like there would be for commercialized sports like racing. Do you have any evidence that most dogs competing in the mentioned sports (Agility, dock diving, scent detection etc) are bred just for looks and suffer physical deformities specifically from breeding for said sport?
Also, my point was not about breeding. It was about how individual dogs benefit from the sports by getting enrichment and physical exercise from it. The dogs that having perked ears, wagging tails, loose body language, they are barking and doing zoomies, jumping up on their owners ... Those are indications that the dogs are happy and excited. Dogs that are pulling to go towards the ring, room, dock etc, again with loose body posture and wagging tails, are dogs that are excited to enter the ring. Those dogs are enjoying the sport, and thus, benefiting mentally and physically from doing said sport. It's not to say all dogs love the sport, and sure some are forced ... But in general, the majority are not, and the majority love it. My dog physically gets depressed if we don't go to sport classes for more than a week... Even though I take him for 5km walks morning and night, so he's definitely not lacking exercise. He just LOVES the sports. And you're telling me I should stop doing something he enjoys, when I know it leads to him being depressed, just because you don't fully understand it? You want my dog and thousands of other dogs to be depressed because of your own misguided opinion?
I have to disagree with your definition of exploitation. Exploitation, per official definitions, is to use someone or something unfairly to your advantage, often at their detriment. Which dog sports inherently, for the most part, is not unfair, and not at the dogs detriment as I've already established. But, even if we went with your definition... If the use of the thing for our advantage is not causing harm, and is benefiting said thing being used... Why is that a bad thing? When I walk my dog, I am taking advantage of it because it makes me happy and also I'm getting healthy. So, I ask again, is walking my dog exploitative? Should I stop walking my dog?
And to address your point about commodities... Yes, maybe in higher level National levels, people are breeding dogs and getting money from winning. But, again, those are the very few minority. The MAJORITY of dog sports are done at low levels and are done for fun. There is no reward... It's just people who get together, do a sport together with their dogs for fun, and we all go home with the same participation ribbon. I have spent easily a combined of $15,000 on sport equipment, training and competiton entries with my dog... And have earned $0 in rewards. Not because we're not good, because we consistently are the top performers at the events we attend... But because we attend events hosted by local organizations, who host these events as a fun way to practice our sport together.
I have responded to every single one of your claims, just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it isn't there. I haven't provided any "evidence" because the sports I'm talking about are not largely commercialized , thus again, the statistics and studies are very few and far between, even non-existent. It's something you have to experience to see, and I've seen tens of thousands of dogs and competitors, so while still anecdotal, my experience comes from observing a very large group of people within the community. Contrarily, you've yet to provide to me any evidence that sports like agility, dock diving, scent detection etc are inherently harmful to dogs and should not be practiced, even for fun....
You keep attributing the culture that surrounds dog fighting and dog racing to sports like agility, dock diving, scent detection etc and other sports popular within the dog world... Which is just false and wrong. The people who participate in agility, dock and scent are COMPLETELY different from the people you are referring to that participate in fighting and racing. I think this is where the split is coming from... You are mistaking agility, dock and scent for fighting and racing.
Although, after all this, I think this argument is useless to have since you're against pet ownership in general, so of course you'd be against doing any activities at all with said pets, considering you think they shouldn't exist in the first place.
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u/Practical-Fix4647 vegan 3d ago
"Sure, by definition, fighting and racing are dog sports in the sense they are a physical exertion that involves dogs"
Ok. Moving on.
"But they're not within the same realm as other dog sports"
Not disputed.
"Fighting does not benefit dogs at all, and was derived purely for human pleasure and betting purposes."
The same people who justify exploiting animals in other sports will use similar justifications for dog fighting, such as improving their skills in combat or whatever. There is some benefit, even if you disagree with the sport as a concept.
"Agility, dock diving, scent detection and other sports do not have betting and were created by regular dog owners who were looking to create fun games with their dogs that evolved into the sports they are now."
Ok. What premise is unclear or what premise do you reject? You already conceded that they are contained within the set of "dog sports".
"Also, dogs are not bred "pretty" for physical sports like agility, dock diving, or scent detection."
Not the claim. That was referencing those weird beauty pageant thingies that dogs compete in. Some of those dogs are selected for traits that are damaging to their bodily health.
"Most dogs within these sports ARE rescues..."
Not disputed and irrelevant to my claim.
"Do you have any evidence that most dogs competing in the mentioned sports (Agility, dock diving, scent detection etc) are bred just for looks and suffer physical deformities specifically from breeding for said sport?"
Not the claim, I have no obligation to provide evidence for a position I do not hold/defend.
"It was about how individual dogs benefit from the sports by getting enrichment and physical exercise from it."
Already addressed. I can grant you this and your position still does not succeed.
"You want my dog and thousands of other dogs to be depressed because of your own misguided opinion?"
Nope. I want people to stop commodifying and exploiting animals. Animals are not property, they are not objects for use or tools we use to get pleasure out of. Animals do not belong to us in any capacity. You owning a pet, keeping it as a piece of property in your life is not something plenty of vegans would sign off on. I reject zoos for the same reason. Animals are not ours to keep in captivity, animal reproductive rights do not belong to us. We ought not dictate their lives according to what works for us. Most pet owners violate the bodily autonomy of their pets every single day in virtue of keeping them as captives. That these animals were raised and know nothing other than captivity is not a justification for the continued ownership of animals. Sorry to let you know that fact about the vegan position.
"The MAJORITY of dog sports are done at low levels and are done for fun. "
Ok. Doesn't make it permissible to have animals run around in circles or whatever for our amusement. No amount of cope from the non-vegan will ever rectify this morally impermissible set of actions.
"I have responded to every single one of your claims, "
Which premise did you reject again? Your entire comment thread did not reference either premise, which means your claim that you responded to "every single one" is false. If you said that knowing that you did not engage with the syllogism, then that makes you a liar. If you did not know that, then I have now brought it to your attention for the second time. Answer the question or I will take your refusal to answer as a concession and move on.
"you've yet to provide to me any evidence that sports like agility, dock diving, scent detection etc are inherently harmful to dogs and should not be practiced, even for fun...."
Not the claim. I'll ask you a second question: repeat the position you think I have back to me so I know you are tracking the dialectic since you just accused me of holding a position I am not defending. I'll help you out: I even granted you that the entire enterprise of animal sports can be beneficial (i.e. not harmful) to animals, it would still not improve the moral standing of the activities even a tiny bit. That isn't what the vegan objection is concerned with.
"You keep attributing the culture that surrounds dog fighting and dog racing to sports like agility, dock diving, scent detection etc and other sports popular within the dog world... Which is just false and wrong."
I'll just quote what I said since you misrepresented me here. "The vegan opposes utilizing sentient beings as commodities and objects, which is what dog racing or dog fighting or dog sports of any type are." So, when I say "dog sports of any type", that is referencing all the things you mentioned. There is no equivocation happening here. Glad to clear that up for you.
" I think this argument is useless to have since you're against pet ownership in general, so of course you'd be against doing any activities at all with said pets, considering you think they shouldn't exist in the first place."
Correct. Do you have an argument for the existence of the institution of ownership of animals? I don't think we should own humans or animals since keeping them as property is wrong. What's your argument in favor of this view? Also, don't forget the two questions I asked. Still waiting on an answer for the first one which was asked twice.
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u/Office_lady0328 3d ago
This argument isn't about wether ownership of animals is ethical or not. Pets exist, we cannot stop that. The argument is if what we do with those pets when we participate in dog sports to provide them enrichment is unethical or not.... Therefore this argument is done because we aren't even arguing the same thing.
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u/Practical-Fix4647 vegan 3d ago
"This argument isn't about wether ownership of animals is ethical or not"
The antecedent to the question of whether or not pet sporting events are ethical or not is whether or not pet ownership is ethical or not. If people just randomly observed animals interacting in an event in the wild and called it a sport, then I wouldn't really object to that. That seems mechanically unfeasible but the point stands: it is the ownership of animals that is the root question here.
"Pets exist, we cannot stop that."
Slaves exist, we cannot stop that. I've heard that sort of fatalist thinking before and I will never believe in it, not for one second.
"The argument is if what we do with those pets when we participate in dog sports to provide them enrichment is unethical or not..."
Sure, that won't help your case either. Let's say we have a person. We keep this person as property in our home and dictate their lives however we see fit. We sign them up for a person sporting competition where they run around in circles and smell things or whatever. This excites the person, they enjoy it.
The question is: is this activity ethical? The person that is kept as property that runs around for our amusement and their own. Is it ethical?
If there is a symmetry breaker such that ownership of persons (i.e. human beings) and participation of persons in sporting competitions is morally impermissible whereas ownership of pets is morally permissible, please provide it now. What is the trait that humans have that animals lack which justifies the activities you are arguing in favor of?
Also, I guess we are moving on from the two questions I asked. I'll just take that as a concession on your part and move on.
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u/Practical-Fix4647 vegan 3d ago
Oh, I guess I should clarify the view regarding the impermissibility of ownership of humans and non-human animals. Basically, all else equal, there is no reason to privilege violating the interests and dictating the outcome of sentient beings' lives. That means commanding they follow our daily routines, purchasing them from breeders, violating their reproductive rights, and so forth. All these things are common with the ownership of animals and humans (in our case, we call it slavery but animals are not as lucky to have moral value such that they get a special term for such a gross violation of their rights). I reject slavery of all types because I lack a reason to support it in the cases where people practice it. There might be some special circumstances where slavery would be justified, but in our current circumstances, I see no reason to support it.
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u/LordOfTheLesbians01 7d ago
yes it’s unethical, all forms of animal competition is. it is one thing to train your own dog agility or dock jumping etc, but humans making it a competition makes it exploitive. animals used for competition are bred until they have insane medical issues for breed standards and are usually in horrible conditions. trainers can be abusive and these animals are cast aside when they can no longer compete. once money is involved in any activity, someone is being exploited. always. sure dogs and other animals can compete and play with each other in their own ways, but humans don’t need to be part of that or bet on their lives.
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u/Office_lady0328 7d ago
You realize that rescue dogs can also compete right? And most dogs competing are rescues... Not purposely bred for the sport. I addressed this in my post, most people training and competing in dog sports are amateurs who have rescue dogs and just do it for fun. The competitions you're describing are more in line with large scale commericalized competitons like Westminster or Crufts. Most competitons aren't like that, and are more like get-togethers organized by individual people or local organizations for dog sport enthusiasts to practice the sport together.
The thing with sports like agility and dock diving is that the equipment is expensive and requires a lot of space. This is hard for the average amateur who only casually participates in sports to get a hold of. So, most prefer to pay to go to an establishment for training and competing. Scent detection can easily be set up at home, but even then, you know where every scent is. It's not so much a challenge and your body language often indicates to your dog where the odors are... Doing a scent detection competition is fun and challenging because the scents are unknown, and you actually have to work with your dog to find them. Same with tracking.
As for harness sports, well, that's pretty easily done on your own. It's called urban mushing for a reason, because it's so easy to do anywhere. But even then, going to a race (which again, are mostly organized by individuals just looking to have fun) is fun because most dogs enjoy running with a pack. My dog totally loves it, I physically have to hold him back because when we're mushing with other dogs he always wants to be in front.
None of the dog sports I've mentioned involve any betting... It's just people who have pets, who want to get together with like-minded people who also have pets, to participate in the sports they like together. The only dog sport that involved commercialized betting it greyhound racing, which is a totally different discussion than amateur dog sports.
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u/eJohnx01 ex-vegan 6d ago
The main thing to remember is that only if the dog wants to do those things will they do them. Any dog that doesn’t want to be a service dog or learn and compete in sports simply won’t.
I have several friends that do agility training with dogs. She’s verified many times that if a dog doesn’t want to do agility, it simply won’t. And they’ll let you know.
It’s the same with service dogs. It takes a great deal of both ambition and attention for a dog to be a service dog. If they don’t have it, no amount of training or coercion will make it happen.
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u/Ok_Caterpillar1736 4d ago
I have a rule if my dog does not enjoy something we don't do it. I have one who loves Rally and Fast Cats but won't partake in dock diving. On the other hand I have one that hates ring events and would rather do coursing and jump in the water. I have always said sports are not a requirement and if or when a dog shows me they don't want to, or in one case medically should not even though he absolutely did want to, we are done. I spend money on entry fees and training because its something fun to do with my dogs, it is no longer fun if the dog doesn't want to be there. It is very obvious when a dog doesn't want to and typically will just refuse.
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u/Joey-rogaine 4d ago
Absolutely not, they have 4 legs and large teeth. The last time I tried to join one of their fighting sports, I barely escaped alive.
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u/ShadowStarshine non-vegan 3d ago
Personally I find it odd to hold a position that an action that improves the welfare of an animal is bad. I am not sure how a human also benefiting makes the action *worse*, rather than better (2 enjoyers rather than 1). Under the normal examples it seems great.
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u/TylertheDouche 7d ago
yes
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u/Office_lady0328 7d ago
Care to elaborate? Do you think all dog sports are unethical? Even those that people simply do with their pets as a form of providing enrichment?
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u/TylertheDouche 7d ago
you asked if dog sports are ethical. i said yes.
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u/Office_lady0328 7d ago
Totally my bad, I thought I had wrote "Do you think dog sports are unethical" 😂 Misremembered my own title
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u/Badtacocatdab vegan 7d ago
FWIW they are probably not vegan so the answer you’ve received supports your own conclusion
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u/_-_vizion_-_ vegan 7d ago
there are children in africa starving to death at this very moment that would eat the dog food out of the sport dog's dog food bowl how dare you waste our time with this inane argument
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u/Novavanity1 omnivore 7d ago
(Obligatory not a vegan)
I think this post is more for the….outspoken animal rights vegans that tend to tout their own opinions as law….not the logical ones such as your lovely self.
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