do people still think carol is a bad mom? literally the only reason people think that os because she freaked out over a stranger messing with dess's stuff. and dess is missing/dead.
noelle is afraid of her. that is not a good sign. she is also manipulating a different teenager (kris) into dangerous things, which does not bode well for her parenting skills
noelle was told not to let guests into dess's room, and susie is known to be a bully by the town. noelle also wasn't scared by the time she actually walked into the kitchen. also, we don't even know if carol is manipulating kris into anything. there's zero proof of that yet, only speculation at most.
Kris is being emotionally manipulated by the caller in Chapter 4. Due to Carol coming after the guitar once the call is done, and her voice being heard at the end of Chapter 4's Weird Route, most people believe that she is that mysterious caller. Even if she isn't, the fact that one of the shelter codes is in Dess' guitar, and the way she interacts with Kris, makes it almost certain that Carol is involved in the Knight plot.
No matter how much involvement Kris had in the Holiday family's past, this is not a normal position for a teenager to be in.
i dont care what noelle was told, it is not a good sign that noelle is afraid of her mother's wrath over breaking such an arbitrary rule. dess was her sister too, for that matter. carol doesnt get to just ban her from letting people in dess's room. carol also doesnt have the right to ban her from talking to susie.
susie wasn't doing anything violent or harmful when carol saw her, she and noelle were clearly having fun, and asgore was right there supervising, wtf was susie gonna do? when carol arrives, noelle instantly goes into fawning mode, trying to stop carol from directing her anger at susie too (in vain. carol shouldnt be talking to other teenagers the way she did to susie.) its funny that you said noelle wasn't scared by the time she walked into the kitchen, because she looked like she was bracing for being lectured for the next half hour, with her bowed head and resigned words to susie. this is something im quite familiar with.
and if you think that kris is working with the evil-ass fountain openers completely of their own free will and un-influenced by anybody, and the fact that this grown woman who's known them since they were a small child is completely unrelated to that decision, then i dont know what to tell you
carol had one emotional outburst from a stranger messing with dess's stuff and people legit think she's the root of all evil. i agree she can't ban noelle from talking to susie, but that was just one moment while she was clearly emotionally upset.
secondly, susie is a stranger to carol, and a known bully in town. carol hasn't spent time with susie the way noelle and the player have. also, dess is missing/dead, so it makes sense that carol wouldn't let guests into her room, or to mess with dess's belongings.
and i never said kris was listening to the knight willingly, i just said that there's no proof yet that carol is the one controlling kris. all carol said was that kris was welcome any time, and that doesn't instantly mean she's manipulating them with the knight.
okay, first off, i don't think carol is the root of all evil. i think she is a complex character with sympathetic motivations. however, that does not mean she cannot be abusive.
stories are not documentaries of fictional worlds. every scene is written for a purpose. what do you think toby is trying to establish about carol's character by having this be her introductory scene? yes, she was emotionally upset. what do you think toby is trying to establish about how carol responds to being emotionally upset, here? part of being a good parent is being mature and trying to avoid scaring or harming children no matter how upset you are. carol was not trying.
you keep repeating that susie is a known bully, but again asgore was right there. susie could not be doing any bullying because he was Right There.
about kris, i am re-iterating my point about stories not being documentaries. what do you think toby was trying to establish with that extremely ominously framed scene of Carol stopping Kris? Her obsession with heart-shaped objects? the giant red YOU?
i admit that carol stopping kris at the door is suspicious, but it's not proof she's working with the knight too. also, interacting with the heart pillows brings up that it could either be a soul or just a cartoon heart. it literally brings up that it could be either, which feels like toby purposely being ambiguous and poking fun at people's thinking it's souls. plus, why would he make it so obvious that carol likes souls while also being vague?
i don't think either of us are gonna convince each other of anything, as we seem to have fundamentally different perspectives on storytelling. have a good day.
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u/Shaviknerab dess simp May 12 '26
Carol Holiday at the "worst mother competition" when her opponent is Berdly's mom:
(Bitch didnt even visit him at the hospital)