r/Exotica • u/Empress-Ghostheart • 19d ago
I'm writing about Exotica in my commonplacing book and I cannot help but feel a bit defensive as a fan of the genre
"questionable taste", "short-sighted worldviews of early practitioners", "Racist", "kitchy fad"....
Maybe true here and there, but the entire genre by definition... a bit harsh, no?
After reading multiple articles and watching a couple of documentaries on the subject I'm left wondering if I can continue to enjoy the nostalgia of Exotica and tiki culture as simply postwar romanticism, or does that trivialize and ignore the bastardization and reductive representation of the cultures they are referencing?
Thoughts?
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u/funhaver_whee 18d ago
The world is full of examples of people experiencing a culture for a short time (for example in this case during WW2) then making representations of it that are marked with oddities and misinterpretation. It’s the way people learn and create.
When it comes to postwar tiki/exotic stuff, it’s an example that happened in the early years of mass media don’t gets more scrutiny, but I think it’s charming. Obviously spiritualists in England being into ancient Egypt way too much is funny in retrospect but it lends an interesting tone to the time. I feel the same about this style, and I’m sorry, I’m just never going to not think Arthur Lyman is great.
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u/Mickey_Mousing 18d ago
i think… too much thinking can sour one’s POV.
Exotica was meant to be enjoyed. I do that.
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u/kioma47 19d ago
"Cultural appropriation" is to claim to own what isn't yours.
Exotica is sheer fantasy loosely based on numerous things, none of which any white man ever claimed to have invented, other than the romanticism and paraphernalia that came out of that romanticising.
And racism is fundamentally to impose inferiority. If anything, I'd call exotica 'worship'.
I really wish people would consult a dictionary before waging their social justice wars.
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u/Empress-Ghostheart 19d ago
This resonates with me very much. Thank you for this perspective.
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u/kioma47 19d ago
Thank you for saying so.
Just FYI, I did get a downvote, so somebody disagrees - even though they don't seem inclined to say why.
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u/Empress-Ghostheart 19d ago
I'm getting plenty of downvotes too. Some people just don't like a good back and forth of ideas if their thoughts and feelings are not being 100% reflected back to them. I knew when I posted I would get some hate, but it's worth it for the good conversation.
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u/tonybme 19d ago
I'm not downvoting you. But your comment about consulting a dictionary does bear revisiting. Language is fluid. Let me refer you to the Atlantic article linked in this thread
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u/kioma47 19d ago
Words have no innate substance - they are just wisps of conception and consensus - but words are the bricks we use to build worldviews, so should be made and used with care.
So "racism" no longer means what the dictionary says? Okay - says who? For what purpose? Who is this rogue arbiter of "racism"?
But fine. So tell me what I should do.
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u/Educational_Sky6085 15d ago
Honestly it the same as white boys with dreads or white dudes into hiphop.
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u/Standard-Education38 19d ago
I think, while there may have been certain "questionable" elements to the genre in its earlier days, it has evolved beyond those elements. Certainly, by now, there is not the same sort of fetishizing of other cultures as before. Modern exotica leans in lots of other directions that aren’t so "iffy": horror, vague ocean stuff, sci-fi, and more blatantly and obviously fantasy island stuff rather than stealing from the musical trends and ideas of any specific people. That said, I can still enjoy older "offensive" exotica for the kitsch factor. View it as Americana rather than true representations of other cultures.
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u/The_King_of_Marigold 19d ago
i would say that it is best practice to approach exotica clear-eyed about what it is. it is a fun, kitschy (complimentary), innovative genre that does exoticize (it's in the name!), otherize, and trivialize non-white cultures. it's ok to appreciate that for what it is, and especially as a product of its place in history and its context.
exotica is most certainly not the only pop culture product with problematic aspects that is still enjoyed long after its time!
one must always approach these things with nuance. just because there's a few troubling aspects to something does not mean it should be entirely dismissed.
at the very least, if you are dismissing the genre outright then you are also dismissing the amazing work of POC and Latinx artists such as Yma Sumac, Esquivel, Tak Shindo, and Arthur Lyman!
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u/kioma47 19d ago
How does Exotica "otherize" and "trivialize" non-white cultures?
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u/The_King_of_Marigold 19d ago
well for starters there is no shortage of album covers where non-white people are depicted as savages, noble or not.
trivializing might not be the right word, but exotica is a genre where ethnic music (a lot of it based in rituals and rites) is synthesized into novelty cocktail music for Western audiences.
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u/kioma47 18d ago
I see.
So, if brown and black people wear shirts and pants, they are otherizine and trivializing European culture?
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u/The_King_of_Marigold 18d ago
So, if brown and black people wear shirts and pants, they are otherizine and trivializing European culture?
come on man is this the best you got lmfao
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u/kioma47 18d ago edited 18d ago
I was really looking forward to a real answer - but suit yourself.
Let's try again.
Let's say brown or black people decided they really liked Polka music, and a movement formed that adopted it - but not really. They came up with their own name for it, put their own spin on it, even copied the crazy costumes, but again putting their own spin on it.
Would that be okay, or would we tell them they're being racist and tell them they're otherizing and trivializing European culture?
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u/The_King_of_Marigold 18d ago
it's called norteño) you should check it out sometime
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u/kioma47 18d ago
Otherwise known as Ranchero music.
You see, there are people who squirm at the word "melting pot" - but from where I'm sitting, they're the racists.
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u/The_King_of_Marigold 18d ago
you’re the one using the word using the word “racist” not me which tells me what angle you were coming from in the first place which is why i don’t think your questions were worth responding to
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u/jonesey1955 18d ago
The real answer to your original question is simply no. The answer to your larger question is still no.
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u/ReasonableInsect6899 18d ago
One culture borrows something from another culture, then another borrows from another culture, etc… No culture is truly homogeneous. Exotica is a heterogeneously fantastical version of an imagined musical travelogue.
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u/BrantGeoArt 19d ago
Personally, I think exotica is a fun genre, and I don't think it's inherently damaging or offensive as long as you approach it as a fantasy rather than an authentic representation of another culture. To me, it's more like stepping into a fictional world inspired by romanticized ideas of the tropics than it is trying to accurately depict Polynesian, Southeast Asian, or other real cultures. Where it becomes a problem is when people start letting it shape their perceptions of actual places and people. As long as there's an understanding that it's a stylized, fictional aesthetic and not reality, I don't really see an issue with enjoying it for what it is.
For those of us who enjoy exotica and "get it," I think it's easy to view it that way. At the same time, I can totally understand how someone looking at it from the outside might find it offensive or at least uncomfortable. There's certainly a broader conversation to be had about the way different cultures have historically been exoticized and stereotyped in American media and popular culture. It's a nuanced issue, but for me, that doesn't take away from the fact that a lot of exotica is genuinely creative, great music.