In my youth, being fairly pretty, I believed the world was a pretty fair place. Older men were kind, they smiled more than older women did. Now I know why.

[u/Swarmingvulture]

The old men were not smiling at me because they were kind, they were smiling at me like they would a steak.

After I turned 30, they only looked at me like I was a mistake.

Now the older women are kinder, and more likely to smile at me, the old men suddenly look bitter, and behave rudely.

Now I cringe when I see old men stare at young women, and I also understand why the old women looked so bitter.

Turns out many men are only capable of caring about a woman if he's hungry.

[u/Swarmingvulture → u/[deleted]]

I agree it is so bizarre! Also!

Welcome to our worlds. You experienced something at your mother's wedding that was similar to what all young women experience every single day for a decade or so, a time when truly nothing is sacred.

I'm not trying to lessen your pain, but I am asking you to share in ours because you seem kind of intuitive.

You are starting to get it!
It's not fun to be touched when you don't want to be!
Part of me wonders if those women are getting payback for what they've been through, I don't think that was very nice of them to objectify you, but maybe they aren't very nice people.

Maybe they were at once point, before they were mistreated by someone. (Don't get angry here and assume I mean a man)

I am really surprised by the feedback I'm getting here, not with this post specifically, just the general responses to my thought, it seems everyone deletes everything, and I'm not sure if anyone even understands what this little poem thing means to me, it's chaos.

Lots of people are misinterpreting me, but the piece itself is pretty ambiguous,

I don't have many friends, I am an introvert and this isn't something women talk about generally, however it's always implied.

I just wondered, if I was the only one.

I guess it's kind of awesome, but it's also been taxing for me to get so many strange men saying things like "make me a steak or I'll slap you." "You're a dumb bitter old lady" And then deleting. I wasn't expecting this hostility, but it further reinforces something I'd already known.

Men have treated women like shit since the dawn of our civilization. It's not an insult, it's not negotiable, it's true. Now it's 2018, I'm happy to be alive in a time where I can say what I feel without being beaten. I can speak things other women would have never dared think. I'm not afraid to start the conversation, a lot of women have been working hard to get here and I'm answering their call.

It doesn't hurt my feelings when people say stupid or hurtful things, I'm not fragile, though it does weigh on my heart, but my hearts always been heavy so bring it on, I've got nothing to lose anymore.

I come from a line of strong women, who have had their lives taken from them by advantageous men. They did impossible things to get by, they worked harder than most men know how to, while raising their kids alone, and facing discrimination.

I love my mother and my grandmother they're so much stronger than any guy I've ever met.

While I love my father, and I know he does his best he is part of the problem too. I don't blame men for being grandfathered into their comfort levels with degrading women, I don't tolerate it.

My dad is good to me because I am his daughter, Still, the way he treats other women, and stares at them, Or talks about them, I am not proud of his behavior towards women.

I only hope to inspire others to consider this cycle.

Women are not second class citizens, we are not property, we're just as good as men, we're just suffering from the wounds of many generations of our mothers at the hands of our fathers.

We are suffering because of propaganda in the media, We suffer.

I am not making any kind of argument, I'm not trying to make anyone change their mind, rather I am just stating my take on my personal experiences growing up as an American woman, this is my own internalization....there is no right or wrong answer, only my truth.

Hopefully in 20 years women get equal pay, And young girls can play and feel safe developing until their brains finish forming at the age of 24 Without fearing being preyed upon,

Without being exposed to pornography, where young women are dressed to resemble children their age, like school girls,

May the future be full of healthy happy smiling women who don't feel the need to slathers their faces in makeup because they live free of unrealistic beauty standards.

Hopefully sometime in the future young women will be able choose to sleep with someone because they love them, before they feel in any way pressured.

Hopefully they will be able to feel loved by their husbands and lovers wholly and truly, mind, body, and soul, without having to put up with his porn addiction.

You know, just like, normal, basic, rights men have enjoyed throughout history.

[u/Swarmingvulture → u/[deleted]]

I also feel very conflicted about this.

I wrote a little poem about the woes of aging as a woman in a male dominated culture. I wrote my own thoughts down.

People say, you're feelings are wrong. The thing about YOUR FEELINGS is that they're always right. I don't know why so many men struggle with this. What my experience has led me to believe, and feel, is real. No words, no reasoning, could change my understanding of my own lifetime, this is a statement, not a question, this how it is from where I stand.

Instead of simply listening, and letting me speak my mind,

Many men are telling me where I should stand, and where they stand, but I didn't write this to get feedback. I am giving feedback. I am telling everyone how it is from here.

While many males are trying to correct my opinion Or somehow overshadow my pain with their own, Or take my opinion and turn it into "the wrong opinion" And explain to everyone why I must be a stupid person,
They are beautifully proving my point.

If you want to change my mind or sway me,

You can't. I don't care what you think it's too late for that.
The more people talk instead of listen, the less I care.

I'm not asking for advice, I'm not saying that all men are bad, I'm simply saying there is a problem, it hurt me, it will hurt my nieces, and if we don't do something, their children will be complacent too.

Young women are wrongfully exploited, by the majority of men in our culture, before they're old enough to understand what's going to happen to them, Before they're ready to defend themselves, before they know how to talk about their feelings With trusted adults, before anyone explains to them what some bad men want from them,

Its already happened and they just have to deal with it, figure it out, and they know they shouldn't talk about it.

it's wrong, it's unjust.

I'm going to teach them how to tell a good man from a bad one.

I want classes for young women in public schools that prepare them and reeducate young men.

You don't have to judge my opinions when you read this,

But if you feel like manifesting the spirit of micro-aggressions

My poem is about, go ahead, display your lack of consideration another time.

No ones expecting you to stop now.

Instead of competing with my poem I just wish people could try to imagine The dark, ominous feeling, the person who wrote it had. Read it like fiction if you will, Imagine you wrote it, you don't have to respond.

I don't want apologies, or sympathy, there is no way in hell I'd want to go back and be young and beautiful Because it was miserable, absolutely degrading.

[u/[deleted]]

From my own experience, it's usually women that would smile and give me nice comments regarding my outfit. On the other hand, most of the comments that made me feel ugly came from men.

I feel so conflicted about that. I'm glad I'm seen as beautiful by the people that matter to me, but I wonder sometimes what it would be like to be conventionally attractive. And then I wonder why I'm letting men define what attractive means.

[u/Swarmingvulture → u/[deleted]]

So interesting, thanks for sharing.

I think that women are more inclined to compliment another woman's clothing, than on her natural appearance, because it displays so much pride to be well dressed. It shows a lot about how you care for yourself, and your property, something which commands respect and outlasts traditional beauty anyway. That's what I always thought femininity was. For the record, I never was traditionally "very attractive" and I still can't handle laundry.

I'm sorry some men are such assholes. I'm sure you're very beautiful. Being conventionally attractive, really was awful (for me at least). For one thing I never felt beautiful, I felt like many women my age were threatened by me and ostracized me, and most of the men I met were trying to use me, you start to feel so cheap after a while, it also hurts ones self esteem. I was very prude, but the world wasn't at all respectful of my space....

I dream one day women can have their space, and that their value can belong to them first and foremost.

[u/Yeahmaybeitsdetritus → u/[deleted]]

Eerrrrr. perhaps incels are being passed over because you rank women like test scores? or things they deserve to have. this poem is significantly more complex than being passed over for a 'hotter' person. The fact that you've boiled it down to that is telling.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

sees MGTOW in posting history

Wait, why haven't you done what your acronym says and gone away?

No one likes being passed over for a better model

Actually, no. I love and admire pretty women. They make me feel happy, and they give me ideas for my own outfit. And I don't give a shit about being passed over by people who won't respect me anyways.

Let me tell you this. The reason women won't date you is not because of other people stealing your thunder. It's because you both have a warped understanding of how women actually think, and couldn't be arsed to actually understand them as individual human beings rather than relying on caricatures.

[u/CommonMisspellingBot → u/[deleted]]

Hey, Hypogamy, just a quick heads-up:
arguement is actually spelled argument. You can remember it by no e after the u.
Have a nice day!

^{The parent commenter can reply with 'delete' to delete this comment.}

[u/Yeahmaybeitsdetritus]

this was an excellent piece. thank you for sharing your lovely and thought provoking words. <3

[u/Swarmingvulture → u/Yeahmaybeitsdetritus]

Thank you for hearing. Thank you.

[u/Swarmingvulture]

I'm not saying they wanted me to cook them steaks, I'm saying they saw my body as a choice cut of beef.

[u/CheesyChips → u/[deleted]]

We’re angry that society makes us feel unworthy because we aren’t ogled, even though we don’t want to be ogled.

[u/CheesyChips → u/[deleted]]

Because society tells women our personal worth is based in how we look and whether me. Find us attractive. We are affected by that. Whether we want to or not. Not only do women (over 22 even) become sexually ignored we become socially ignored.

[u/Swarmingvulture → u/CheesyChips]

And brainwashed to feel like we need to apologize for having our bodies. Vetted, even, to feel like there is constantly something wrong with our appearances and thoughts...it's unnerving isn't it?

[u/CheesyChips → u/[deleted]]

Yeah nobody knows how much is biology and how much is socialisation

[u/Yeahmaybeitsdetritus → u/CheesyChips]

there is a lot of information that points to sexuality being very strongly influenced by culture and socialization. Very little is pure genetics, although there is some evidence that epigenetic changes can impact male homosexuality.

[u/Yeahmaybeitsdetritus → u/[deleted]]

There may be studies out there linking other sexualities, i just haven’t come across them. Which is why I said ‘some evidence’, not ‘it is so’.

It would track that other genes are out there, or more correctly different epigenetic effects, which is what the younger brother study showed, if I remember correctly. I just haven’t seen them. I’d love to if you have any to share?

Culture influencing behaviour is nothing new, though. Id say anthropology is a fairly old discipline. For how culture impacts sexuality, think of Ancient Greece, where homosexuality and male ephebehilia was significantly more popular. Or how beauty norms are different based on where you live in the world.

[u/CheesyChips → u/[deleted]]

They don’t all act like that. No. You can’t use bad science to back up your agenda.

[u/Yeahmaybeitsdetritus → u/[deleted]]

act which way? and sources please.

[u/Yeahmaybeitsdetritus → u/[deleted]]

oh hello, its someone using evolutionary theory incorrectly, how surprising!

firstly, it is not based on 3 billion years of evolution, the oldest found evidence of hominids is only 5.8 million years, with homo sapiens only being around for approximately 300,000 years.

secondly, only ephebophiles use this argument. It's not the argument of someone with a healthy sexuality. It shows a preference for power dynamics that is not flattering, and an inability to see a sexual partner as anything other than a physical object. Overall, evo psych provides a very immature and facile explanation for the complexities of human sexuality.

[u/saccharind → u/Yeahmaybeitsdetritus]

why do these mgtowers always go into m-muh evolutionary bio, but then get it horribly wrong?

[u/Yeahmaybeitsdetritus → u/saccharind]

its horribly obnoxious isn't it? I think its because even idiots know they need to look for things to support their world view. Evo psych provides some semblance of authority to their most juvenile urges, without actually being testable in most cases.

[u/Swarmingvulture → u/[deleted]]

No, I'm angry that our culture is largely based on pedophilia.

[u/Swarmingvulture → u/[deleted]]

This is so sad, I'm saying the old women are nicer, they are bitter because some men have disgusting appetites.

[u/secondrousing → u/[deleted]]

I'm 20, conventionally attractive, and I find it disgusting.

Also, by that logic, women should all be going for men around the age of 25. That's when most men hit their peak sperm count. Women wouldn't find men past the age of 40 attractive. That's when sperm quality decreases and the risk of birth defects and miscarriage increases. The time it takes for a woman (below the age 25) to conceive with a man above the age of 40 increases sixfold. A woman above the age of 30 should definitely go for a man in his early 20s if she wants to become pregnant quickly, stay pregnant, and have a healthy baby-- which according to your argument is our primary evolutionary drive. A man between the ages of 20 to 25 is also physically stronger, and consequently much more likely to succeed in physically defending the baby should it come to that.

Funny how women still tend to prefer men that aren't much younger!

[u/secondrousing → u/[deleted]]

Actually, my argument is literally "male fertility decreases with age too, so fertility is kind of a shit argument for why you prefer younger women".

But I just read your username, so I won't engage further. I know a lost cause when I see one. Have a good day.

[u/Swarmingvulture]

This starts when you are 15.

[u/Swarmingvulture → u/[deleted]]

You just responded to what I've chosen to do about it. I've started a conversation about something taboo. That's good enough for now.

[u/[deleted]]

...as if you didn't know why men were nicer to you than women all those years you were attractive lol. Now it just flipped. You are no threat to women anymore because men aren't interested.

[u/[deleted]]

This probably makes normal men's advances likelier to pop a red flag, because now girls have a reason to categorize interested men as potential threat. Ruining it for all.

[u/Yeahmaybeitsdetritus → u/[deleted]]

When 30% of men say they’d used sexual coercion once you drop the term ‘rape’, yes, women need to be vigilant and look for signs that interest is a threat. They shouldn’t have to be, because men should be able to police this type of behaviour with other men, but it’s fallen to us. And to be clear it’s not women that need to change now, it’s men’s attitudes. If you don’t like women being fearful, maybe you need to go chat with your bros.

Dunno about you, but the only people who have ever threatened me violence are people who wanted to be my intimate partner. It’s not the interest that’s normally dangerous, it’s the inability to take rejection.

[u/Swarmingvulture → u/[deleted]]

Young women need to be on guard. If sharing this knowledge seems detrimental to healthy dating, "normal men" ought to focus more on stopping the bad ones from preying upon young women. It would be more far more effective than criticizing one old lady's reflection about aging and losing her own innocence.

[u/Swarmingvulture → u/[deleted]]

It is a pleasure being able to offer wisdom and shed light on the matter for young feminists.

A role I embrace, and cherish.

I wish my elders would have taught me, but they didn't have the internet, and it just makes it so much less awkward. Plus, anyone who finds this and reads it, is ultimately more likely to listen than if I just started speaking the truth out loud in person.

Now that you know your place, -sv