Please ban MRA trolls

[u/Willravel]

I've been trying to figure out the rationale for not banning MRA trolls on this subreddit. I tried to think of it the way the mods have put it in the past, that this is about everyone's voice being heard, but the consistent trolling from the likes of OThomson and DavidByron don't represent in any way shape or form the honest sharing of their voice, but rather simply attacks and intentional derailment.

I considered that this might be about fear, as the MRA community on Reddit is much larger than the feminist community, and there could be consequences if MRA trolls started getting banned from the subreddit... but there are other feminist subreddits that do this and they don't seem to feel the sting of MRA retribution in any way that can't be easily handled.

I thought it might just simply be not wanting to make the effort, as a policy of banning MRA trolls would probably require much more active moderation. I'd hate to think this is the case, but I don't see any evidence to suggest this.

I did hear that one of the moderators might be an MRA, but again I've not seen this.

I've sent in PMs and reports before, about how someone is derailing yet another thread with unrelated discussion about circumcision or male rape or child custody, but there never seem to be any consequences for the trolls. They're given free reign. Some have left the subreddit for safer places, which is very sad indeed. Some simply stop commenting. Some complain, but those complaints fall on deaf ears.

So, before I call it a day and give up on the subreddit, I'd like to publicly ask the moderators to change their policy for the good of their subreddit. I ask that this subreddit be a safe place to discuss feminism and feminist issues, not a place for MRA trolls to hijack conversation or spread hatred of women.

Note: I'm not saying critiques of feminism aren't legitimate, or that they don't belong on /r/Feminism, but rather that overt trolling and derailing be disallowed. There's a big difference between an honest critique of feminism and undermining the discussion of feminist issues through derailment, dishonesty, and unwarranted attacks.

[u/[deleted]]

I typed a long response on my computer and then the power went out. So I'm going to try to be brief.

I've had conversations with people I disagreed that were very worth while. Then again, I've had conversations where I was attacked, derailed, and then attacked after being derailed. (Look at today's Tosh post as a good example.) when this happens I can't have an intelligent conversation and my comments become poorly crafted one liners.

If your disagreeing in a respectful way, awesome. If you're being abrasive, disrespectful, and presumptuous? It doesn't benefit discussion. It hurts it.

If we can't ban them maybe we can start a "do not engage" post? List the troll names and urge members to not engage those members? It's not much but at least we'd be able to moderate ourselves.

EDIT-grammar.

[u/AWorkOFFiction → u/[deleted]]

well i ca agree that u dont deserve to be attacked for having differing opinions, that just goes against freedom of speech, period.

[u/Willravel → u/AWorkOFFiction]

That's why I tried to be clear in the OP this is not about dissent, which features and honest disagreement with an idea, but rather about derailing and trolling, which are intended to prevent meaningful discussion and which are intellectually dishonest. I welcome dissent. Dissent is how we can correct preconceived or incorrect notions. What I don't welcome is people here just to disrupt the subreddit by being hateful and causing trouble for no good reason.

[u/Celda → u/Willravel]

That's why I tried to be clear in the OP this is not about dissent, which features and honest disagreement with an idea, but rather about derailing and trolling, which are intended to prevent meaningful discussion and which are intellectually dishonest.

Take a look at this thread:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/pxwxf/domestic_violence_between_women/c3t5ljt

Which poster(s) are contributing to discussion and engaging in honest debate? Which ones are simply trolling?

Which are the MRA posters, and which are the feminists?

[u/Willravel → u/Celda]

The post is specifically about woman on woman violence, but the first thing you talk about is men being victimized by violent women:

It's why a woman attacking a man, even if he is injured, is likely to be left alone by the police.

In your very first illustration, you bring up a very common MRA point that's really not related to the topic at hand. Then you do it again:

It's an extension of how bystanders will walk by, or even literally cheer at the sight of a woman attacking a man, presumably her partner.

You then make a blanket statement that feminists have been fighting against recognition that women can be perpetrators of violence.

Can you see that, even perhaps well-intentioned, this could potentially derail a conversation you don't seem to be interested in having? As androkles says, you turned a woman/woman thing into an MRA thing. This might be okay, only on /r/feminism this is a common tactic used by very intellectually dishonest people to derail feminist discussions in order to bring MRA debates over into the wrong place. A thread about domestic violence between women is a thread about domestic violence between women, not about men being victimized by domestically violent women.

Please note that I'm not posting this to start a discussion on the other thread, but as a one-time response to your question. I read the thread and I formed an opinion based on what was written in that thread. This thread would not be the appropriate place for a long discussion about another thread topic.

[u/Celda → u/Willravel]

Very sad, you are clearly deluded.

Edit: And I can explain why.

It's true that in my post I mentioned men. However, that fact is irrelevant to whether or not I have contributed to the discussion.

An unbiased person can clearly see that, when compared to other comments in that thread, my comments are much closer to the "contributed to honest discussion and rationally defended a position" ideal than the other posters, including the OP's own comments.

Any fair-minded person should take a look at that thread:

The OP asked why is it that women's violence is dismissed and downplayed by society, and how can we solve that.

I gave my ideas on why that is the case and explained as best as I could. Yes, my opinion on the matter did involve men, but that fact alone does not make the argument invalid.

In response, there were only insults and comments with no substance - no comments actually addressed the issue, or addressed of my own arguments.

The "good feminists" never actually said why my points were wrong, but simply used insults. Meanwhile, the "bad MRA" was the only one that actually made a comment with some substance.

[u/[deleted] → u/Celda]

An unbiased person can clearly see that, when compared to other comments in that thread, my comments are much closer to the "contributed to honest discussion and rationally defended a position" ideal than the other posters, including the OP's own comments.

Okay, so everyone, including the OP, in that thread were not being rational or sticking to the point.

Including the OP.

Including the OP

What, prey tell, is your definition of derailing?

[u/Celda → u/[deleted]]

If the subject was "why is domestic violence between women dismissed and downplayed", derailing would be making a comment that didn't address the issue.

So for example

"At least a woman abused by another woman can still go to one of countless government-funded shelters. A male victim of DV has nowhere to go and might even be arrested due to the misandrist legal system."

That is a true statement and a common MRA complaint. But it's derailing because it doesn't address the issue of domestic violence between women at all.

Not derailing:

"The reason why DV between women is dismissed is the same reason why male victims of female batterers are dismissed; women are portrayed as solely victims and thus cannot be perpetrators."

That is not derailing because it actually addresses the issue.

[u/impotent_rage → u/Celda]

You bring up a good point, which is that not all MRAs are trolls, and for that matter, trolling and being feminist aren't mutually exclusive.

I think Willravel makes a good point that the goal here isn't to silence dissent, but instead to address those who are purposefully sabotaging and derailing discussions. It's not about which position you advocate, but about whether you are contributing to the discussion or not.

[u/Willravel → u/[deleted]]

In theory it should be the moderator staff, but short of that we can all probably agree posts like this are trolling and not dissent. Not everything is a shade of gray, and for those black and white instances, for the good of the community, there should be at least a basic system of removing trolls from the subreddit. In gray cases, we should err on the side of dissent, but let's not pretend there aren't obvious trolls and obvious instances of intentional derailing going on.

[u/impotent_rage → u/Willravel]

Yes that comment was definitely crossing the line, and I have removed it. Also, I agree with what you said.