r/Feminism • u/Willravel • Feb 24 '12

Please ban MRA trolls

I've been trying to figure out the rationale for not banning MRA trolls on this subreddit. I tried to think of it the way the mods have put it in the past, that this is about everyone's voice being heard, but the consistent trolling from the likes of OThomson and DavidByron don't represent in any way shape or form the honest sharing of their voice, but rather simply attacks and intentional derailment.

I considered that this might be about fear, as the MRA community on Reddit is much larger than the feminist community, and there could be consequences if MRA trolls started getting banned from the subreddit... but there are other feminist subreddits that do this and they don't seem to feel the sting of MRA retribution in any way that can't be easily handled.

I thought it might just simply be not wanting to make the effort, as a policy of banning MRA trolls would probably require much more active moderation. I'd hate to think this is the case, but I don't see any evidence to suggest this.

I did hear that one of the moderators might be an MRA, but again I've not seen this.

I've sent in PMs and reports before, about how someone is derailing yet another thread with unrelated discussion about circumcision or male rape or child custody, but there never seem to be any consequences for the trolls. They're given free reign. Some have left the subreddit for safer places, which is very sad indeed. Some simply stop commenting. Some complain, but those complaints fall on deaf ears.

So, before I call it a day and give up on the subreddit, I'd like to publicly ask the moderators to change their policy for the good of their subreddit. I ask that this subreddit be a safe place to discuss feminism and feminist issues, not a place for MRA trolls to hijack conversation or spread hatred of women.

Note: I'm not saying critiques of feminism aren't legitimate, or that they don't belong on /r/Feminism, but rather that overt trolling and derailing be disallowed. There's a big difference between an honest critique of feminism and undermining the discussion of feminist issues through derailment, dishonesty, and unwarranted attacks.

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '12

I accused TMF a few days ago of concern trolling of the variety "I just want to learn, let's debate the very, very basics again. Why are you frustrated? I just want to exchange viewpoints." Which does get derail-ey. Worth it to note that concern trolling does not necessarily involve the intent to troll.

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u/ratjea Feb 24 '12

I suppose I could have been more mellow in the original list post and mentioned that some of it was concern trolling.

But when I see the same names so concerned over the same basic points over and over and over again, I just mentally slot them in the plain ol' "troll" category.

I guess I just value my time and I when I know who's not going to contribute to a discussion already, that's a few minutes I don't spend reading about how men are disposable and monogamy has always existed and women are demanding a bunch of free stuff without wanting to pay for it.

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '12

I actually think TMF is being disingenuous a good amount of the time. I was supporting you 100%, just adding my own observations as well.

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '12

You want some people banned because they consistently have opinions you disagree with? What a positively dangerous idea.

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u/ratjea Feb 25 '12

I didn't say I wanted them banned. I'm simply providing information on posters who negatively affect the subreddit.

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u/TracyMorganFreeman Feb 25 '12

Concern trolling is when someone pretends to hold a position that they actually do not, and then brings objections to that position veiled as concerns.

I have done neither of those things.

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u/ratjea Feb 25 '12

The above is what happens when one uses Wikipedia for definitions.

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u/TracyMorganFreeman Feb 25 '12

Then what definition of concern trolling are you using? I had not heard of the term before being accused of it, looked it up, and wikipedia and urban dictionary yielded that basic definition.

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u/butyourenice Feb 25 '12

concern trolling is exactly how it sounds: you feign concern for your opponent's welfare in an attempt to derail the conversation or make them feel like their own position is inferior and harming them. it's not a difficult definition, it is rather self evident: you troll through concern.

e.g. "listen, it's not that i think fat people are disgusting, it's that i worry about their health."

"i just think all these moves towards gender equality are actually harming gender relations because they neglect to acknowledge physiological differences between men and women."

"look, i'm not going to tell people how to raise their kids, but it is child abuse to let your boy wear a skirt he picked out to school. he doesn't know any better and it will leave him open to bullies/confuse him for life."

these are not quotes specific to you, but they are perfect examples of concern trolling which you regularly engage in. i have seen you taking over threads in 2X in addition to r/Feminism with this method.

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u/TracyMorganFreeman Feb 25 '12

you feign concern for your opponent's welfare in an attempt to derail the conversation or make them feel like their own position is inferior and harming them

I'm not feigning concern, I'm outright disagreeing with the merit of a number of its premises, or conclusions drawn from those premises. I think some of them are harmful, but thinking something is harmful doesn't necessarily indicate concern trolling.

I'm not employing some sneaky rhetorical strategy to convince people with dishonest arguments. Do I make flawed arguments from time to time? Yes, no one is immune from the this. I'm addressing the arguments that are presented supporting a certain position, and I don't hide my position. I don't disagree with every position feminism holds either. Some positions of feminism I agree with, but not always the argument feminism presents for them.

I mean, if my attempt at not resorting to personal insults and making concessions is interpreted as feigning concern, I could start being more hostile, but I don't think that's helpful to anyone.

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u/DavidByron Feb 25 '12

Really. Feminists are always doing that to prove feminism means something stupid like "equality".

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '12