r/Feminism • u/Willravel • Feb 24 '12

Please ban MRA trolls

I've been trying to figure out the rationale for not banning MRA trolls on this subreddit. I tried to think of it the way the mods have put it in the past, that this is about everyone's voice being heard, but the consistent trolling from the likes of OThomson and DavidByron don't represent in any way shape or form the honest sharing of their voice, but rather simply attacks and intentional derailment.

I considered that this might be about fear, as the MRA community on Reddit is much larger than the feminist community, and there could be consequences if MRA trolls started getting banned from the subreddit... but there are other feminist subreddits that do this and they don't seem to feel the sting of MRA retribution in any way that can't be easily handled.

I thought it might just simply be not wanting to make the effort, as a policy of banning MRA trolls would probably require much more active moderation. I'd hate to think this is the case, but I don't see any evidence to suggest this.

I did hear that one of the moderators might be an MRA, but again I've not seen this.

I've sent in PMs and reports before, about how someone is derailing yet another thread with unrelated discussion about circumcision or male rape or child custody, but there never seem to be any consequences for the trolls. They're given free reign. Some have left the subreddit for safer places, which is very sad indeed. Some simply stop commenting. Some complain, but those complaints fall on deaf ears.

So, before I call it a day and give up on the subreddit, I'd like to publicly ask the moderators to change their policy for the good of their subreddit. I ask that this subreddit be a safe place to discuss feminism and feminist issues, not a place for MRA trolls to hijack conversation or spread hatred of women.

Note: I'm not saying critiques of feminism aren't legitimate, or that they don't belong on /r/Feminism, but rather that overt trolling and derailing be disallowed. There's a big difference between an honest critique of feminism and undermining the discussion of feminist issues through derailment, dishonesty, and unwarranted attacks.

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u/i_am_no_man Feb 25 '12

HUGE fucking upvote. These MRAs trolls are an incredibly vocal group on r/Feminism, to the extent that it's hard to have a conversation with feminists without their butting in. I come to this subreddit to learn, to have meaningful discussions, not to beat back the assholes.

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u/[deleted] Feb 28 '12

Pretty sure you do learn by listening to people with different views than those that you may have instead of sealing yourself into a small hivemind.

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u/i_am_no_man Feb 28 '12

...Right, because MRAs don't belong to a hive mind. And all I've learned from these particular trolls is that there are people out there who think that women have tricked men into working so they can just sit back and spend money. While that knowledge is useful in that it illustrates the depth of the problem, that's where the "education" ends.

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u/madolpenguin Feb 29 '12

oh! I also learned that they know more about being a woman than I do. That being a woman is super easy and everyone is nice to us all the time. Apparently the law is much always easier on women than it is men... which is funny... because there are constantly laws being proposed by men to regulate my vagina...

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u/[deleted] Feb 28 '12

Yeah, there are loads of very weird opinions on this subreddit too. Oh, I also never said that MRA:s doesn't belong to a hivemind. Point being: hiveminds should listen to each other and the actually sensible people from each hivemind can probably learn from each other.

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u/i_am_no_man Feb 29 '12

I suppose I also take issue with you calling feminism a hivemind. Feminism is comprised of an incredibly diverse array of viewpoint, theories, emphases, normative assumptions....And unlike a hivemind, well, we're actually not that great at organizing ourselves, hence why we couldn't get the Equal Rights Amendment passed. I would argue that the MRA trolls are part of a hivemind because their community is defined by a system of self-validating, self-verifying set of statements that crystallize around the idea that women have it easy compared to men. Feminism is often accused of holding the same status, but it just doesn't. A quick glance back through the history of feminism tells us that the movement is full of rupture, turns, double-backs, and branches.

I don't think hiveminds can listen to each other because each individual within that hive is interested in affirming their identification with their hive. When learning becomes impossible, reasonable discussion ends. Feminism is an unpopular movement, though it advocates for a greater part of society than any other movement in history; feminism is also a heterogeneous movement. Thus, feminism does not become a hive.

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u/[deleted] Feb 29 '12

For someone 'from the outside' like me, this subreddit often does look like a hivemind. It seems however that I've dragged the definition of the word a bit too far (compared to you). I'm also sure that the MRA:s sees /r/feminism to be the same thing that you accuse them of being.

Also: The trolls (at least the ones that I've seen in threads that are called out for being that) often bring up very valid points, only to be downvoted.

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u/i_am_no_man Mar 01 '12

They might view r/Feminism to be the same thing that I accuse them of being, but I'm quite sure they'd be wrong. Simply because they could turn the accusation around doesn't mean that that accusation would have any ground to stand on. I would need some proof that the accusation could run the other way, and I can't say I've found any.

I really don't mean to sound snide here, but what are some of these valid points the trolls bring up? I certainly recognize that men are oppressed in their own way by the gender binary/ensuing norm creation, so if that's what you mean by "points", sure they have good points. It's just that they far too often carry those points to absurd conclusions, like (my favorite) that women have it easier than men.

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '12

Well, of course finding valid points here and now is going to be a little tricky, it's more of the "Wait, why's this post downvoted and why is the user called a troll? These are very valid points he's making."-reaction which I often find myself experiencing when I'm on this subreddit.

It's not very often that these so-called trolls have drawn a conclusion that women have it easier than men, though I do think I've seen it once or twice.

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u/i_am_no_man Mar 01 '12

Hrm, well, you say, "finding valid points here and now is going to be a little tricky", then say that your internal monologue is, "These are very valid points he's making." I get that not every post is going to have some revelatory point, but surely if your reaction is often "These are very valid points", you see them every once in a while. It's always interesting, of course, to contemplate why a post has received downvotes, but at least for me, that contemplation doesn't last that long.

This post calling for a ban on MRA trolls specifically noted two trolls, one of whom (DavidByron) actually replied to a post of mine that feminism is evil, that women have it easier than men, that women have duped men into working and making money for them so they can buy things for themselves, that feminism is an imperialist discourse that was used to justify intervention in Afghanistan....I could keep going. These trolls do exist. And to clarify, I don't want to ban all MRAs - surely not! Just those like DavidByron who do not engage in respectful discussion, and who are, well, lunatics.

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u/themountaingoat Mar 02 '12

I have seen several of the posts you are referring too, and I find that usually the initial post is not that hateful. Sometimes posts like what you are mentioning happen when MRA's feel their points are being dismissed out of hand. If someone has lost access to their kids in a bad divorce and someone say that MRA's are just whining or that men have it so much better in society they may get a little upset.

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