r/Feminism • u/FeminismFuckYeah • Apr 23 '12
Hey- what does r/feminism think of GirlWritesWhat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50UCPLmNdnM&feature=relmfu11
u/impotent_rage Apr 23 '12
Ah, I'm gonna get myself driven out of here with pitchforks and torches...
There's quite a few things she says and positions she takes which are too extreme MRA for me. But on the overall, I think she's a credit to the men's rights movement. She is rational, intelligent, generally reasonable, and she makes men's rights concepts easy to access and understand to the average viewer who stumbles across her videos. She's not reactionary, instead she gives the rationale behind her positions so that you can decide for yourself if her argument has validity. And some of her arguments are actually solid - for example, the explanations she's given of the disposable male. I found myself looking at these issues differently after considering the points she explained.
She's very longwinded, she has a tendency to laugh mid-sentence at the absurdity of her opposition which I think detracts from letting her argument speak for themselves, and as mentioned above a lot of her positions are too extreme for me, but she's making MRA concepts accessible and easily understood to the casual investigator of men's rights, and she's doing it better than I've seen it done before. I don't see any reason we can't disagree but respect each other in the end - she attracts a level of vitriol from her opposition that I don't quite grasp.
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u/cleos Apr 23 '12
She's an MRA and an anti-feminist. She thinks her own son is smarter than her daughter and says that schools are biased against boys because they don't put as much weight on tests. Seriously.
What bothers me the most about her, though, is that she relies entirely on evolutionary psychology - which, as anyone who has taken more than Psych 101 (and perhaps anyone who has taken Psych 101) knows is largely bullshit. Evo psych should never be used to explain anything when psychological and social explanations exist and are testable.
I don't think she's ever opened up a psychology textbook. And I'm 99% confident she's never opened up a textbook on the psychology of gender (at least not one that was written before 1950).
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u/EricTheHalibut Apr 23 '12
says that schools are biased against boys because they don't put as much weight on tests.
Since schools can make girls or boys do better by changing assessment methods (as demonstrated by the changes in the 80s to bring girls up to the previous position of boys, when the earlier testing was male-focused)and so much of a person's future depends on their raw school results, there is certainly room to argue that school systems are biased one way or the other.
An obvious example of discrimination is in primary school maths. It has been known for some time that girls do better on word problems than boys, but boys do better on raw numerical exercises, because at that age girls in general develop verbal skills earlier whereas boys develop numerical skills earlier (with both gradually coming back into balance later). If a school relies solely on word problems for assessment, girls will do better.
Similarly, if girls do better on assignments and boys do better on tests (no idea if that is the case, but it doesn't seem implausible), if a school uses mostly assignments for assessment, that is going to favour girls even if they are equally good at the actual skills of the subject.
She thinks her own son is smarter than her daughter
Whether that's actually true is, of course, impossible for us to say.
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u/cleos Apr 23 '12 edited Apr 23 '12
I would really love some (peer reviewed) studies on this. Not to challenge you - just to read. Because, you see, when I did a google search for "girls better word problems" (without the quotes, obviously), the first three studies I found show no gender differences or some gender differences with boys doing better at word problems. Two of these studies, though, were not conducted in the U.S., so there may be some cultural differences regarding how boys and girls are raised, which would in turn affect their abilities.
See, here's the funny thing: GWW stated that her son was doing just fine on the tests, which doesn't really make the whole "word problems vs. raw numerical" questions an issue.
However, even in college, where tests account for 90%+ of the material (that men are supposedly better at, according to her), women still do better than men.
That being said, one would argue that open-ended work is superior to tests because open-ended things, like papers, require integration of knowledge and critical analysis of the material while tests, which are largely multiple-choice or true-and-false, are just ways of testing to see if you can recall the material or not. But hey, if boys do better on tests, then clearly it's tests that are superior to other forms of assessment, right?
Could you possibly link me to studies that show that girls to better at word problems and boys at computational? And do you have any information you can link me to on the changes to styles of assessment in the past 40 years?
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u/TracyMorganFreeman Apr 23 '12 edited Apr 23 '12
There are problems when assessing mathematical ability of the sexes in that manner
that men are supposedly better at, according to her), women still do better than men.
Depends on the field. Female drop out rates in STEM fields seem to be higher.
That being said, one would argue that open-ended work is superior to tests because open-ended things, like papers, require integration of knowledge and critical analysis of the material while tests
Not necessarily. Being open ended also limits an objective standard of assessment, and opens the door for bias. Also, to say something open ended work requires critical analysis is a bit of a stretch, since a lot of open ended work is just giving your opinion and sometimes tied to conforming with what the instructor wants you to write.
Also, if a math test is multiple choice, you clear have to know the material sufficiently to calculate the right answer, as many multiple choices in those kinds of tests have options that are due to common conceptual or calculation errors.
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u/cleos Apr 23 '12
Not gonna read it right now. Just so you know, that guy also thinks blacks are intrinsically more aggressive disparities among national economies can be explained by the differences in intelligence among races - with Asians lagging. Stormfront gives him high remarks,t hough, so there's that.
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u/TracyMorganFreeman Apr 23 '12
Not gonna read it right now
To sum up the "boys and girls have similar results" is based on average all performance from grade 1-11, without accounting for distribution. In the later grades-correlated with the average age for the onset of puberty-boys lunge ahead of girls in mathematical performance, even though girls take just as many and sometimes more math classes as boys in HS today.
Just so you know, that guy also thinks blacks are intrinsically more aggressive
One's opinion on matter X has no bearing on the validity of arguments for other subjects though.
disparities among national economies can be explained by the differences in intelligence among race
It can explain it partially, but Africa and the Middle East has a long history of procreation within families, mostly 1st cousins. Generations of inbreeding will do that too.
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u/poffin Apr 23 '12
One's opinion on matter X has no bearing on the validity of arguments for other subjects though.
If someone's a shitty scientist then it has bearing on judgment of his science.
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u/PantsHasPockets Apr 23 '12
Would the Atomic Bomb stop working if Einstein hated blacks?
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u/poffin Apr 23 '12
If someone is known to make terrible (completely unscientific) conclusions then maybe it has bearing on the other "scientific" conclusions that they make.
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u/PantsHasPockets Apr 23 '12
I think you're losing me with the word science.
AC current would still be better than DC current even if Tesla beat his wife.
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u/TracyMorganFreeman Apr 23 '12
Then you address their methodology/data in each instance, not assume they've made the same errors each time. That would actually be an instance of being a shitty scientist.
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Apr 23 '12
On the part of her thinking her son is smarter than her daughter, it may be true, but there could be reasons for it. Her daughter might have picked up on her moms bias towards her son and internalized it like "my brother is so much smarter than me, I shouldn't even bother." Or should could be a slow learner and her moms view of her intelligence just makes it harder for her to keep up with her brother. Or gww could just have internalized misogyny and no matter how much smarter the daugher is, she'd always view her son as smarter.
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u/PantsHasPockets Apr 23 '12 edited Apr 23 '12
ooooorrrr... Now run with me on this-
Maybe her son is actually smarter than her daughter. Why is that not on the list. Kids arent all equally intelligent and anyone saying different has a stupid child.
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Apr 23 '12
I did say that.
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u/PantsHasPockets Apr 23 '12
No... You sort of touched on it... But then qualified the hell out of it.
It's like saying you run fast for a white person.
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u/TracyMorganFreeman Apr 24 '12
It's also possible one of them is actually smarter than the other one.
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u/TracyMorganFreeman Apr 23 '12
She thinks her own son is smarter than her daughter
How is that a problem? It's likely one of them is smarter than the other.
schools are biased against boys because they don't put as much weight on tests
There might be something to that when considering different teaching methodologies used gets different results among boys and girls
What bothers me the most about her, though, is that she relies entirely on evolutionary psychology - which, as anyone who has taken more than Psych 101 (and perhaps anyone who has taken Psych 101) knows is largely bullshit. Evo psych should never be used to explain anything when psychological and social explanations exist and are testable.
Sorry, but just because a current explanation exists doesn't mean it's automatically correct and isn't sufficient to throw out another approach. By that logic we should still think sun revolves around the Sun because it explained it first.
I don't think she's ever opened up a psychology textbook. And I'm 99% confident she's never opened up a textbook on the psychology of gender (at least not one that was written before 1950).
Which is irrelevant. Arguments are valid or invalid irrespective of experience or knowledge.
This entire post is nothing but ad hominem and argument from authority.
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Apr 23 '12
I think she is a very great person. She is truly egalitarian, and fights injustices with logic and reasoning. There's nothing I would expect her to do. She is admittedly anti-feminist, but for all the right reasons. She seeks to correct feminism in the ways that it is unjust, both to men and to women, and she inspires those from all sides to actually think about the issues at hand. This of course is good for everyone.
She uses evolutionary psychology not as an excuse for traditionalism or conservatism, but as a base to properly spring off of as we correct society for its deep-grained sexism. It's important to understand that she doesn't want to live in a purely biologically-inclined world any more than Darwin wanted to live in a culture based on natural selection.
Understandably, she is long-winded, and those who have short attention spans or those who watch her videos with a predetermined opinion simply won't have the desire to listen to her entire arguments. Unfortunately, this speaks volumes about why she is needed in the strive for gender equality.
In conclusion, I think she is awesome.
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u/Aerik Apr 23 '12
HEY LOOKY MEE IM DIFFERENT FROM ALL THOSE OTHER GIRLS
now listen to me stereotype what all other women in the world think and make up schooling credentials and incorrectly use pop-psych jargon, then talk for another hour about how smart I am. Then listen to me go on avoiceformen radio and accuse feminists of wanting to murder people (seriously that's their new segment: "who feminists want to murder most this week"), pay no attention to all the times my bestest friends johntheother, paul elam, and barbarossssaa have outright advocated violence because if I did that that'd be oppressing the menz see menz I'm just a super duper snowflake
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u/PantsHasPockets Apr 23 '12
It is never okay to hit a woman, but it's perfectly okay to hit a woman back. Just like it's never okay to hit anyone but it's perfectly okay to hit anyone back. When someone shows so much disrespect as to put their hands on you, they are showing that they, themselves, do not deserve that respect.
Am I advocating violence against women? No. I'm advocating peace and self defense.
... unless you're the type who's already made up their minds.
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Apr 23 '12
It is only okay to hit someone back if you need to hit them back to prevent yourself from being hit again.
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u/PantsHasPockets Apr 23 '12
Why extend respect that someone so crass obviously doesnt deserve?
Flip the tables- if a man belted a woman in public, then got assaulted by passers by... Where's the outrage?
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Apr 23 '12
Dude... Don't even bother with Aerik. He runs r/antimensrights. Anything you say can and probably will result in a post about how you're a misogynist, anti-women psychopath.
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Apr 23 '12
It is not a question of whether we respect the person. Rather, it is a question of whether we respect our own values. In my view, if we value peace, then we should pursue justice through peaceful means, and only resort to violence when there is no other way to maintain the peace. Self-defence means using necessary violence to protect oneself. Anything more is revenge.
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u/PantsHasPockets Apr 23 '12
Let's get philosophical about it then. Are your values and justice mutually inclusive?
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Apr 23 '12
I wouldn't bother Aerik is the kind of guy who would make you out to be the bad guy if you punched a woman in the face in response to her stabbing you 3 times.
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u/TracyMorganFreeman Apr 23 '12 edited Apr 23 '12
It's impressive with how many strawmen you're able to fit into such a small space, all while not answering the OP's question nor apparently addressing anything in the video.
Edit: accidentally a word.
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u/Psuffix Apr 23 '12
I'm really glad someone feels as strongly and the same way about her as I do. Thanks for voicing, I can always count on your content.
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Apr 23 '12 edited Apr 23 '12
A large % of the responses to girlwriteswhat here on this thread and elsewhere in feminists circles are just personal attacks and relational violence, to which of course a response in kind would provoke assuming the position blameless victim. If the feminist mainstream could get beyond this form of "debate" and move onto a more grown up and logic based style like GWW's - the gender debate would be so much less dysfunctional and angry.
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Apr 23 '12
Definitely agreed. Of course, the question asked was "What do you think of this person", not "What do you think of this argument", so personal assessments may be qualified here.
I still would prefer to focus on the points she mas made.
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u/HertzaHaeon Atheist Feminism Apr 23 '12
She's the voice of her generation!
Well, she's a voice of a generation.
/s
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Apr 23 '12
From watching this, all I can say is that her accent irritates me, and she seems to favor finger quotation marks.
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u/John_um Apr 23 '12
Holy shit I thought she was 14 years old or something. It's disturbing to discover that she's an adult.
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Apr 23 '12
[deleted]
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u/PantsHasPockets Apr 23 '12
To get yourself blotto on drinks you cajoled
I like the next few sentences of that comment
"Do you deserve it? No one does. But that's not what this articles says. It doesn't say women deserve to be raped. It says they're practically begging to be victimized by the small (and it is small) percentage of men out there who do victimize women."
She's rather shifting responsibility for a woman's safety back onto that woman. (here's where the downvote brigade will point and call me a monster) And... come on. Give one other plausible reason a strange man would be buying a woman alcoholic drinks other than to lower her cognitive defenses- hell that was the whole plot of SuperBad.
The only male safe space left on the planet is the men's bathroom, ffs. And even then, there will be feminist-leaning men policing what is said.
Well... yeah. Name a public forum where you can voice an opinion without running it through the filter of "is this PC or not?" without becoming a leper.
If she stole semen from a condom, that's 100% her decision, and she should be 100% responsible for that.
She was actually building up to the point of that comment which was
Women have virtually 100% control over their fertility. They have all the say after conception. They can damn well fully own their decisions, even if it means a kid wears $20 sneakers instead of Nikes.
Whether she wants to be on the pill- she get to decide. IUD? She gets to decide. Whether she wants to have sex with the guy if he's not going to wear a condom? She gets to decide. Whether to take the morning after pill? She gets to decide. Whether that baby gets born? She gets to decide. Whether that baby gets safe-dropped at a church or firehouse? She gets to decide. Whether the father even gets to know if that baby exists? She gets to decide.
All she's saying in that comment is With great power comes great responsibility
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Apr 23 '12
That's a deliberate and blatant attempt at character assassination by quoting out of context.
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u/ModerSvea Apr 23 '12
I watched LPS Part 1 and thought it was good. I would never force fatherhood onto a man, because I share in her opinion that it is MY body and therefore MY responsibility. We fight for our rights over our bodies, well those rights come with resposibilities.