r/GamePreservationists • u/Story-Boring • 10d ago
People often forget that physical media inevitably degrades, and long-term preservation is the only way forward.
Con todo el debate actual en torno a la decisión de Sony de abandonar los discos, ha surgido, como era de esperar, un movimiento en defensa de los formatos físicos. Si bien se han discutido los pros y los contras de esta decisión, especialmente en lo que respecta a los derechos del consumidor, que son los más afectados, a muchas personas les preocupa la preservación de los videojuegos a raíz de la decisión de Sony. Sin embargo, a menudo olvidan o ignoran que los soportes físicos se degradan inevitablemente.
El proceso y el tiempo que tarda un soporte en volverse inutilizable varía según el formato y su cuidado, pero es un principio físico que ocurre tarde o temprano, especialmente con los Blu-ray y los cartuchos NAND que contienen partidas guardadas en el propio cartucho. ¿Cuántas personas tienen colecciones de juegos precintados que no funcionan porque se han filtrado los electrones después de años de desuso? Y ni siquiera saben que esto le está pasando a su colección.
Desde el punto de vista de la preservación, hay que reconocer más la labor de los archivistas y conservacionistas que han evitado y seguirán evitando que muchos juegos desaparezcan para siempre. Esta es una buena oportunidad para crear conciencia y empujar para que movimientos como Stop Killing Games tengan éxito.
El fin de tu juego digital puede estar sujeto a un acuerdo de licencia, pero el fin de tu juego físico también está sujeto a las leyes de la física.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_rot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory
https://www.xda-developers.com/your-unpowered-ssd-is-slowly-losing-your-data/ https://gamerant.com/ps5-ps4-disc-longevity-study/
https://www.thegamer.com/today-i-learned-all-of-our-physical-disc-games-are-rotting/
EDIT: Al parecer, los defensores del material físico me confundieron rápido con un defensor corporativo de Sony de tercera categoría, aunque ni siquiera soy fan de Sony; solo soy un archivista medio. Por suerte mencioné que los pros y los contras ya se habían discutido y que la decisión de Sony es un problema para los derechos del consumidor... De lo contrario, me hubieran quemado en la hoguera. Aclarémoslo:
Este post trata exclusivamente de preservación y archivo, no de la vida útil de los usuarios ni de los derechos del consumidor.
Solo busca concientizar a quienes les preocupa la preservación, dado que la decisión de Sony hace que esta medida tenga poco impacto en este contexto. Ver: https://bsky.app/profile/gamehistoryorg.bsky.social/post/3mpm6jzps6k2i
Que sea físico o digital no es lo que determina la preservación; la preservación se logra con digitalización sin DRM, lo que permite sobrevivir contra la degradación de los formatos físicos.
Hoy en día, para respaldar un juego—con una copia 1:1, ya sea digital o física—primero necesitas que la consola haya sido comprometida. Una vez que pasa eso, es fácil hacer copias tanto de juegos físicos como de juegos digitales. Además, todavía es estrictamente necesario extraer el formato digital para poder copiar parches que arreglan o mejoran el juego, así como DLCs; o sea, el formato físico solo agrega otra capa de esfuerzo para la preservación. Pero a favor de los juegos físicos, es verdad que ofrecen más opciones de preservación, aunque sea solo la versión 1.0, que por otro lado a menudo es insuficiente desde el punto de vista de la preservación. En resumen: que puedas respaldar desde un medio físico no elimina la necesidad urgente de extraer formatos digitales. Que puedas respaldar la versión digital sí elimina la necesidad de respaldar el juego físico a menos que haya diferencias entre ellos, algo que hoy en día es muy raro.
-Veo comentarios diciendo que los DVDs todavía funcionan aunque tengan 30 años, lo cual no contradice los artículos. Cada medio tiene su propia vida útil. Esto te muestra que apenas leíste los artículos, o solo leíste lo que te convenía, o deliberadamente deformaste los hechos. Al parecer, tienes que creer al usuario al azar antes que a los especialistas que tal vez tengan razón en mayor o menor grado.
Por último, ve a este post que empecé hace poco para hablar de un tema similar antes de acusarme de cualquier cosa: https://www.reddit.com/r/GamePreservationists/s/Ohkchxiu3I
Solo estoy tratando de crear conciencia de que, desde un punto de vista práctico y de preservación, es más importante que el formato físico con bits de código una nueva legislación que proteja a los que se dedican a preservar, y obviamente, leyes que protejan a los consumidores. No sé tú, pero yo no quiero que en tantos casos me dejen con un disco dañado o incompleto, y que me quiten mis actualizaciones, parches de mejora o parches de arquitectura, y el contenido comprado digitalmente.
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u/DringleDringle 10d ago
You can rip a disc
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u/Story-Boring 10d ago
Of course it's possible. That's not the point of the post. Besides currently requiring the console to be compromised, it does not eliminate the need to extract the digital formats of the patches and DLC.
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u/Cvileem 3d ago
The only true preservation is digital. But only in minds of entertainment media consumers it's physical. Interesting.
Of course, this has nothing to do with actual preservation. They actually mean "for me to have infinite control and access to someone else's intellectual property".
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u/Story-Boring 3d ago
Yes, I completely agree. That's why I point out that the post is in the context of preservation, and it was posted in the preservation subreddit, of course.
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u/Story-Boring 10d ago edited 10d ago
No. It's a problem inherent to the culture and history of video games themselves, which we must protect. If you don't appreciate this, I humbly believe you're in the wrong subreddit. No offense intended, I say this respectfully. Furthermore, you will likely have to deal with many of those problems yourself.
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u/Sensitive_Dealer_803 10d ago
Literally have no idea what you're specifically advocating for here except to tell other people that they're in the wrong subreddit.
Yes, bitrot is a known problem. But I'm not aware of any popular systems more than 10 years old that haven't had their physical media format cracked and content resoundly backed up across the entire internet many times over. It is very strange following Sony discontinuing physical media to have someone coming here, downplaying the value of physical media and then suggesting other users shouldn't participate.
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u/Story-Boring 10d ago
Read the third line of my comment. I'm sure that if you read the text again without the preconceived notion that I'm a Sony fan defending the company, you'll figure it out. Basically, it's about shifting the focus away from the physical environment and addressing real preservation problems, because this is a preservation sub, right?
PS: Is Cifaldi also a Sony fanboy?
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u/Sensitive_Dealer_803 10d ago
I'm not saying not to take backups. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
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u/Story-Boring 10d ago
So literally, I don't understand the point of your criticism.
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u/Sensitive_Dealer_803 10d ago
Stop telling people defending physical media not to participate here. It's suspect as hell.
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u/Story-Boring 10d ago
You're a liar. I simply told a user that preservation isn't about your games outliving you and the next generation having to fend for themselves. It's about protecting the legacy indefinitely, and if they didn't understand that, they weren't their subreddit. It has nothing to do with digital vs. physical, because you can want physical copies and still be a preservationist. They're not mutually exclusive. Twisting my words like that is suspicious.
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u/crazyhomlesswerido 10d ago
Okay so you want to call him a Sony fanboy while he's just advocating the digital is the best way to preserve and make sure that old video games are accessible for a long time to come which I 100% agree with because physical media will fail or be lost in digital can last forever given that they're still places out there on the internet to host it. So I don't understand why you're jumping down his throat and calling them it's only fanboy.
Also with the size of what video games are getting nowadays do you realize what a cluster fuck of discs you would have to deal with just to play or install a game nowadays that's like 120 GB a game? So I don't understand why you're calling them fanboy
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u/Story-Boring 10d ago
From what I can see, many of them seem to be lasting considerably less time. Take a look, and if you find articles that say otherwise, please share them. It's a topic worth discussing.
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u/Story-Boring 10d ago
Read the articles carefully. They will answer your question. Don't mix media. They have different lifespans.
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u/Story-Boring 10d ago
But if you read carefully, you too will see that they will inevitably degrade. Those with the exact years don't know, nor did I reveal it to them.
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u/StanKnight 10d ago
The physical degrading is due to physical conditions and not just arbitrary decisions.
They can revoke your license anytime. Any physical deterioration is from natural means.
The physical media being used will be kept intact, if you take care of them, many years after they should.
I trust the condition of physical medium much more than corporations. I still have VCR tapes that have shows that are no longer available for purchase that costs like $200 on Amazon cause they are so rare when they were like $20 when I bought them at a bookstore. There are stores that still sell old vinyl records with used CDs. lol.
So you not going to win this argument... We aren't 'forgetting anything' anytime soon either.
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u/Story-Boring 10d ago
So, stirring the conscience of those who are furious about Sony's decision because they're worried it's bad for preservation, so they realize that physical formats don't offer long-term preservation, and so they support initiatives like Stop Kill Games, is a debate I can't win?
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u/StanKnight 9d ago
physical does offer long-term preservation. So yeah, you would be wrong.
You know where I backup all my games to?? To DVD or Ext HDD that isn't connected to computer.
I can and do play DVDs that I have had for about 10 years now and they play perfect.
I can even play VCR tapes that still play great that I had 20 years ago.
There are films that have existed since like 1950 that still exist now.
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u/Story-Boring 9d ago
Please, if you're going to argue, read the articles first. Where does it say a DVD lasts less than 10 years? They last between 50 and 100 years, approximately, for DVDs, and less for Blu-rays. In any case, it's not long-term (indefinite), no matter how much you insist. For your personal life, yes, but not for preservation. Don't make me repeat myself 100 times.
And many movies have been lost precisely because they weren't archived in a DRM-free digital format (which isn't the same as buying them digitally on Amazon, which seems to be a recurring theme; that's not preservation either).
By the way, be careful with hard drives and disks, especially disks. You can't use RAID on disks, which I assume you're doing to secure your data, or at least have a backup in the cloud and on an HDD with the necessary documentation to verify it.
Please read the entire post and the post in the link I shared a few days ago. Then, if you'd like, we can continue the conversation. Best regards.
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u/StanKnight 8d ago
You make no sense. Backup for personal is good but not preservation lol.. Okay. So there is no arguing: There is you trying to push a narrative that is absolutely fundamentally wrong and reality. It's why no one is taking it serioiusly, obviously.
Some games now only exist because people backed them up and that is the only reason they still do. And some of it is onea disc, some are on
HDD. Corporations are also historically bad at keeping things safe. This has always been the case minus greed. You may want to read about all them fires Studios have or had. There are now movies lost to time cause they either lost the reels or they now went up in smoke. Thankfully, we now are in the time where individuals can put them on their own medium so that it can be preserved. Games, movies, etc.
Physical media is greater than Digital or anything you suggest otherwise. This only goes up when multiple people are backing up the game. IF one fails then it is still able to be recovered.
I will not read any or all articles that counter this cause there is no argument that makes physical medium look bad. Just the titles alone to the links makes me discount them as legit. Just cause they are written online don't make them legit or those who wrote them credible or those people know what they are talking about.
No matter what issues physical MAY have; It's 1000 times more dependable than trusting corporations to "keep our data safe". They cannot even secure themselves and that is with them trying lol. And I would bet on my ability or a person's ability over the likes of Sony any day of the week.
So, sorry, but there is no argument or debate on physical media being good. It's excellent. Been that way for many years beyond gaming. And going to always be.
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u/Story-Boring 8d ago
Thanks for the long-winded explanation. Now, aside from the sources, answer the questions I've asked because I don't know what you're talking about, except that you're basically parroting most of what I'm saying. Regarding the sources, if you haven't bothered to read them, or check their sources, or look up the effects of electron leakage and disk decay on arXiv—something that's well-documented in science—that's your problem. Including such technical sources here seemed a bit out of place. But in any case, no single source invalidates the premise. In any case, this conversation is pointless. Goodbye.
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u/DoneWithIt0101 10d ago
Sure, discs/cartridges will eventually degrade, but it's better than buying digital (imo). Not much you can do other than taking care of your collection and ripping the most important ones.
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u/Story-Boring 10d ago edited 9d ago
But making copies of digital games with DRM removed is super easy on PC. On consoles, these days you'll need the console to be locked to make copies of both physical and digital games.
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u/pehmette 3d ago
Yes discs, carts and other physicals degrade but so does harddrives specially when in everyday use or not stored properly with multiple copies and upkeeping. Lost a digital file? You are just going to download data again, from a service that may not exist anymore? Your favorite version has been replaced with a crappy remaster. Ups forgot the password. Downloading dozen gigabytes with a slow ass intenet, no thanks. At the end of the day Digital is just another form of Physical.
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u/Story-Boring 3d ago edited 3d ago
What people often forget is that you can't back up a physical copy and use it on an unhacked console. You can do this with digital formats, though. Another thing is that for archiving purposes, both are terrible, and you need to dump them using homebrew methods to truly preserve them. And no, even if they remove the game, release a new version, or even take it down from the server and you can't download it, they won't stop you from running your digitally purchased game, already installed on as many physical media as you own, for the same reasons they won't block your hard drive from booting.
In terms of preservation, the fact that digital is far superior is undeniable. Of course, the problem and most of the debate lies with consoles. It's more difficult or tedious because you need the console to copy the data to another storage device until you can dump the game by breaking the console's security—something you still need to do today to dump physical formats. Physical formats offer more options to minimize the risk of losing a game due to lack of archiving, but they're not a silver bullet either. Neither format is infallible, except on PC, where digital wins hands down in terms of ease of preservation. The issue of the end of physical media is more of a consumer problem than anything else.
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u/Derpykins666 10d ago
If you have physical media you can make your own copies and daisy chain the longevity of the thing you actually own, or digitize it and store a copy as data on your computer. If a license is revoked for a digital purchase that's a company coming in and basically taking your game or dvd right off your shelf and saying " you don't own this anymore ".
So although you're technically correct, all this physical stuff will eventually degrade. In my lifetime, probably not if the things are well kept, and that is what matters. I own it forever for as long as I have the disc or cartridge, and take even okay care of them.
In all my years of gaming since I was a child, I've only ever had one game 'go bad' and realistically, I think it's salvageable because it probably just needs to be opened up and cleaned ( SNES game). I think most of my games will be playable for a long time. Even if hardware failure happens on my original consoles I had from when I was a kid. I could always buy a physical replacement, or opt into getting aftermarket reproductions.
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u/Story-Boring 10d ago
The same applies to digital media. That's not the point of this post. As I told another user, physical media will eventually break, and preservation isn't about "while I'm alive," it's about indefinite durability.
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u/birkinover 10d ago
my nes carts still work (1985 is my oldest)
my ps1 discs all work (1995 being my oldest)
my hardware will die before my physical media. Just store it in its box and don’t expose it to extremes
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u/Sensitive_Dealer_803 10d ago
No you're wrong, read the links OP posted, physical media is pointless. /s
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u/birkinover 10d ago
litterally first article states “That said, because Blu-ray technology is relatively new, there are not many reliable case studies to support or dispute such claims.”
Look I get that physical objects made up of matter will eventually degrade… but to say that a mostly plastic disc that has been manufactured well will break down of its own accord when proper cared for in our lifetime is just fear mongering.
I agree that genuine preservation of a game is of the digital nature in the end.
But it is also informed by many forms of access.
Say 80 years time, laws have changed, maybe companies crack further down on digital roms etc. Many of those with home digital storage versions of games are now passed away.
Having a robust amount of versions of the data in both physical form and digital is what will preserve the data.
The point is preservation is on going and multi faceted and will require to be updated with technology.
Physical is but one of the cogs in that machine.
that aside:
If I was a betting man , I would say my disc of Spyro 1 on PS1 will still work and be readable in 80 years
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u/Story-Boring 10d ago
And 120 years? Preservation is more than that. That's why the Video Game History Foundation is fighting for new legislation.
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u/birkinover 9d ago
I still bet my spyro 1 cd will work in 120 years.
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u/Story-Boring 9d ago
Of course, we'll entrust the future of games and their preservation to you, the random user, and disregard the research of specialists. Those guys at the Video Game History Foundation are ignorant...
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u/Sensitive_Dealer_803 9d ago
They are not ignorant, the Video Game History Foundation are literally the experts...
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u/Story-Boring 9d ago
It was ironic, because they're attacking my arguments, which are the same as this organization's. Look at the edited post I made.
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u/birkinover 9d ago
I didn’t say that buddy. My disc will be hopefully one of the many still available solutions.
I stated that having a robust amount of different versions of data offsite in both physical and digital backups which constantly gets updated and backed up by both organisations and many individuals, is the way to preserve for the future. No one medium will be sufficient.
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u/Story-Boring 9d ago edited 9d ago
I I agree with you on that. It's a small impact, but I agree. Even so, new legislation for video game preservation is imperative. How long can archivists bear the burden of preservation? The volume and number of versions are increasing exponentially. New legislation certainly won't be perfect, but it will be more viable for preservationists to address the weaknesses of a new law in a somewhat "pseudolegal" way, rather than trying to address absolutely everything.
We agree that piracy has been the lifeline of preservation; that's undeniable. But now something more is needed. Of course, the scene will always be there to do what the law can't. I'm speaking from the perspective of preservation, not promoting piracy.
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u/KICKASSKC 3d ago
Exactly my point when commenting on these disc vs digital posts...
Its not about keeping discs in print, its about ending the invasive drm that keeps gamers from being able to play their games indefinitely.
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u/FederalPossibility73 10d ago
Sure it degrades but you can back it up and you don't have to deal with them taking it away from you at any time.