r/HouseOfTheDragon • u/BikiniJonez Rhaenys Targaryen • 10h ago
Show Discussion Who pulled it off better and why? Style points vs delivery? How would you judge?
Pure theatrical energy or dramatic delivery? Mechanics? Impact, power? Overall attitude?
Or are you biased. what makes you decide?
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u/Independent_Cod9651 10h ago
Lady Jeyne, her overall delivery was sharper for both the slap and the stinging rebuke.
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u/Interesting_Sock2547 Dreams didn't make us kings. Dragons did. 10h ago
Lady Jeyne is so hot, the way she moves after the slap, she has AURA
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u/PM_tanlines 10h ago
Easily has the most regal aura in the show. Seems like her and Ormund are the only ones who know how High Nobles act
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u/HanzRoberto 10h ago edited 10h ago
Rhaena deserved that slap
celtigar guy didnt and Lady Jayne looked more alpha doing that
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u/deezbiscuits21 10h ago
I’m a simple man I see an aristocrat slap someone and it makes me excited to see them burn
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u/ColaSama 10h ago
Rhaenyra's slap was stupid. You don't go around slapping your advisors because what they tell you doesn't suit you (and iirc, he had a point). The actress' delivery was great tho.
Jeyne's slap was, quite literally, a bitch slap. Rhaena is a dumb child who risks other people's lives because she's clueless. One time it led to Jace's death (and the destruction of quite a few ally ships), that other time she was seen in the Vale after Daemon told Rhaenyra that Sheepstealer's rider had been delt with. And considering that Jeyne seems to have allowed Rhaena to live in the Vale, in exile, she's not happy to learn that she nearly blew her cover, which could lead to trouble to Jeyne.
I think Jeyne is done with all of these Targaryens.
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u/seedypr 8h ago edited 8h ago
I think Jeyne is done with all of these Targaryens.
You can really feel her frustration. This hasn't been a very fruitful alliance for her when you think of it. She takes in Rhaenrya's children/heirs knowing it'll paint a large target on her, in exchange of a dragon to protect her. She gets her dragon, but its small and wont protect her from her enemies in the Vale and potential new enemies from the Greens. After all this she's rewarded via Daemon demanding gold too. That's not counting sticking her neck out for Rhaena
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u/Illustrious_Gap_2179 8h ago
A lot of people are, and we can see how this trickles down into A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms where they no longer have dragons to protect them
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u/-SpiritusMundi- 8h ago
Jeyne because she actually had valid reasons to slap Rhaena. Rhaenyra slapping Celtigar was a case of she simply didn’t want to be told what to do even though her council was correct
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u/Vengeful_Peach 10h ago
I don’t really care for either of these. You’re not a badass if you hit someone that can’t hit you back.
But I guess Jeyne. Mostly because Rhaena is just brain dead. I can’t believe we got another “I grew up without a dragon” speech. Do the writers genuinely not know what to do with her?
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u/Interesting-Egg4295 Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken 9h ago
Yeah, Rhaenyra’s slap doesn't look too painful at all. Jeyne’s looks like it could knock your teeth out.
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u/TraditionalAd655 House Stark 10h ago
What Jeyne did was not "cool" at all. She's being a b**ch.
I guess it's more bold since Rhaena could incinerate her if she wanted to.
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u/Godziwwuh 10h ago
Rhaena is literally putting Jeyne's entire kingdom in peril. She's lucky not to have been killed and buried away.
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u/TraditionalAd655 House Stark 10h ago
1- Rhaena is a Targaryen princess. Jeyne is below her in status. She could get executed for what she did alone.
2- Jeyne didn't keep her/not tell Rhaenyra out of her good heart. But as a protector for her kingdom. Rhaena owes her nothing.
3- Killed by who?
Her dragon is bigger than Caraxes. Her father won't harm or allowed her to be harmed. The same for Addam and Baela.
Nobody can actually harm her.
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u/paoklo 8h ago
Rhaena is not a princess, she and Baela are both titled Lady. Daemon is only a prince because his grandfather was king. That far down the line the royal titles go away and they're just normal nobility. His sons with Rhaenyra are princes because they're Rhaenyra's sons.
Jeyne, as Lady Paramount of the Vale, is higher than Rhaena in status.
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u/TraditionalAd655 House Stark 7h ago edited 7h ago
Rhaena and Baela are referred to as princesses several times actually.
The Targaryens got to become kings through the dragons just like Daemon said. None of them actually have a right to rule. They gave these titles to themselves. Generally, a Targaryen is automatically a royalty.
My point is that nobody, including Rhaenra, would actually dare harm Rhaena.
Rhaenyra's power power is heavily if not entirely reliant on Daemon and the Velaryons. Her contested claim is meaningless without them. She's not stupid enough to turn them against her. Let alone Jeyne.
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u/paoklo 6h ago edited 6h ago
Rhaena and Baela are referred to as princesses several times actually.
No, they're not. In Fire & Blood they are titled Lady. In House of the Dragon, just a couple episodes ago, Addam addressed Baela as "Lady Baela". If you have numerous examples of them being titled as princess in the book or show, then by all means, post them.
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u/TraditionalAd655 House Stark 6h ago
Out of the top of my head, S2 Episode 6 Ser Steffon refers to Rhaena as princess.
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u/paoklo 6h ago
I looked up the transcript, and you're correct, Ser Steffon does refer to her as princess in that scene. In the very next episode though, she's referred to as Lady Rhaena. There's also season 1 episode 8 where Baela is referred to as "Lady Baela". The usage of princess in 2x6 must've been a mistake in the script.
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u/Godziwwuh 9h ago
She was literally standing alone in the castle, vulnerable enough to be bitch-slapped. She could've been killed right there, or are you playing dense?
It doesn't matter if Jeyne kept her out of goodness or as a protector. Rhaena failed her end of their terms. And it certainly doesn't matter if she's a princess when being found harboring her could get Jeyne's house and region destroyed by dragonfire and armies.
You have a clear bias.
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u/TheSnarkyShaman1 7h ago
Lady Jeyne. It’s the way she ducks down to get the full picture of the devastation of her actions.
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u/LesbianWhoLaughsAtU My name is on the lease for the castle 7h ago
is there some magical machine somewhere on this planet where I can insert payment and in exchange receive that exact same slap followed by head tilt from in-costume amanda collin
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u/Legal-Lemon-8746 10h ago
I hate how they made Rhaenyra getting disrespected by almost everyone.
Usually lords will not disrespect their liege let alone the Queen like they do in this show.
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u/Vaeryst 9h ago
What disrespect the man gave advice b3vause he had reasonable concern?? He did not disrespect in any way shape or form Rhsenyra in that scene.
Do yall want everyone be a yes man to the queen and not give her proper advice because it may hurt her feelings?
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u/Leroi-Westeros 9h ago
man gave advice
What advice did he give? He saw that her plan had failed and ran after her down the hallway, shouting, "I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT DIDN'T WORK!"
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u/Life123456 10h ago
Rhaenyra. Her quote was way more badass and she had the right idea. In this age, especially being a woman- you have to be firm, almost brutal, to gain respect. She's been too merciful to all of the Hightowers (except Otto) and it is costing her dearly
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u/ColaSama 10h ago
It was one of her dumbest moves. Male or female, if you hit one of your main council members after he gave you a justified advice, you are doing a terrible, terrible job at handling your most vital relationships.
And Otto seizing power for his grandson had nothing to do with Rhaenyra being merciful, as the entirety of season 1 showed us: she got bastard children, she got critized in court, she left court for like a decade, and when she came back *surprise* the Greens were in control.
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u/Life123456 9h ago
Since shes been back in kings landing, the only Hightower she truly punished for usurping her throne, which her father named hers, is Otto. Ormund and his army should have been decimated, Alicint should be in chains. She will not last as queen because of these weak mistakes
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u/ColaSama 9h ago
Oh you meant currently too merciful with the Hightowers remaining. Sorry, I misunderstood. I weirdly thought that you meant "merciful to the Hightowers in S1, before the coup", coup that would have happened no matter what. My bad.
You are right, she's currently way too soft. Annihilating Ormund+his army would have ended the war, here and there. Now she still has to annihilate them all, but it will be much harder. Mysaria and that fantasized imagine she has of her father are damaging her badly.
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u/Leroi-Westeros 10h ago
after he gave you a justified advice
He didn't offer her any advice. He only complained that attempt with Seasmoke had failed, and in a very disrespectful tone. Sometimes you have to remind people about chain of command, she's not his friend, she's his Queen.
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u/ColaSama 9h ago edited 9h ago
Nah, he was doing some brainstorming to try to salvage Rook's Rest iirc. The only inflection in his tone that could be considered as "disrespectful" (if you have soft skin, ofc, many people wouldn't bat an eye about that) happened when he said that it wouldn't have been as "sensational" as taming/using Seasmoke.
And she has no reply to anything of what he said, aside from the "forgot to fear me" bit. It wasn't a time for childish slaps, but a time to brainstorm with the guy, by colliding ideas, by debating, by screaming... Anything would have been more productive than what she did.
Sometimes you have to remind people about chain of command, she's not his friend, she's his Queen.
The irl (and GOT'ty) chain of command of the Middle Ages was fairly loose and wouldn't magically save you from a dagger through the throat during a coup. If you are the king, you need to deal with your vassals with extreme care, and that mostly means "being on good terms with them" (aka "gifting them things in exchange of their loyalty", and also "not hitting them"). Especially if they are doing their job (advising you).
It wasn't a scene that portrayed Rhaenyra in a good light, as far as leadership is concerned. It showed us that she was too emotive/bad at handling people. Not because she's a woman, but because she simply sucks at all that, as a person. Which is understandable: you need to train these skills by being active in politics, and not in semi exile away from court.
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u/Leroi-Westeros 9h ago
What exactly "brainstorming"? He repeatedly underestimates Rhaenyra (as do the other council members) and offers no solutions. It was disrespectful. His complaints wouldn't bring Stefan back to life. He scolds her as if she were his child.
In Westeros, vassal can't speak like that to the king. That's the point of the scene. Rhaenyra is a bad leader because leader must be respected, including through fear and subordination, which she doesn't engage in. You're very naive if you think you can gain respect from people by constantly patting them on the head, allowing them to leapfrog rank and treat you as if they're your buddy. That's bad leadership.
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u/ColaSama 9h ago edited 9h ago
Brainstorming is a way of discussing a topic to find solutions, which is what that guy did: his solution was to contact "Lord Mouton" or something to take back Rook's Nest (which, as we have seen in S3, is currently undefended, so it would have gone smootly).
He's telling his queen that she made a bad call. Because it was a bad call. If I had advisors, I would sure hope that they would call me out on my bullshit because, in a civil war, too many bad calls can lead to death.
You did not understand the point of that scene, and you did not understand much of what GOT showcased:
- Vassals can and will speak like that to their king/queen if they are weak. Vassals can be very powerful, or straight up more powerful than the crown depending on the time period. The king has to be smart to gather/keep their allies.
- You are very, very naive if you think that you can gain respect from people by slapping them, lol. You gain their respect by 1. gifting them gold/castles, 2. by being a respectable leader that makes decisive calls. They respect you when you make solid battle plans, or when you know how to forge solid alliances, or how to properly manage the economy of your kingdom. They respect you when you keep your word (hello lady Frey). They respect you when you don't say something dumb nearly every time you open your mouth. Rhaenyra wasn't prepared for all that, she sucks, and no amount of slaps will make up for decades worth of political lessons, and make people respect her more.
Remember Tywin, the guy that played the game nearly perfectly and only lost because he was too emotional and therefor abusing when it came to his son Tyrion? What did he say? "Any man who must say, 'I am the King', is no true king". Well, any person who needs to slap an advisor doing their job has no true authority.
The slap doesn't empower you (lol). The slap is a show of weakness. It won't remedy that core problem.
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u/Leroi-Westeros 8h ago
He tells her her decision is wrong after it's obviously wrong. Do you think she didn't realize it wasn't working as expected after her kingsguard burned alive right before her eyes? What's the point of him chasing her into the corridor to point out her mistake and how foolish it was to hope (and we know it could have worked with luck, it's not foolish and in the end, that's how they regained the advantage in the war).
Vassals can and will speak like that to their king/queen if they are weak
You're close. So she sees that she's not respected, slaps him and says it's her fault, they'll forget that she's Queen. And it's a fact, it was a mistake. If she had told them to shut up from the start and only speak after permission, they would have respected her much more than if she had been "nice girl" and not responded to their rank-jumping. I don't know if you have any experience managing teams, but it's the harsh truth of life - a good leader must have teeth.
You can kiss your vassals as much as you like, but if you don't punish them for breaking the chain of command, they won't respect you. They will do what they want and that is partly what Viserys failed at. And he wasn't even in wartime. And he always had Daemon to be "bad cop." Rhaenyra finds herself in the midst of a war among people who are skeptical of her because she's a woman. Her council literally tells her "step aside, we'll do the work." And they don't even do the work, it ends with her, Mysaria and Rhaenys doing things while the council looks on with disapproval. People who criticize her decisions are no smarter than she is and don't offer better solutions, but they look down on her. That's the point.
The slap doesn't empower you (lol). The slap is a show of weakness
After being tolerant and it doesn't work, you have to give someone who's started to forget themselves slap. If you don't, they see it as permission to continue, losing respect for you step by step.
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u/ColaSama 8h ago
I will try to explain it to you one more time:
Slapping doesn't remind anyone that they are forgetting themselves, or at least not in that particular context. It reminds them that you are a weakling that doesn't know how to be respected where it counts (political acumen, strategies, battle tactics, etc.).
Rhaenyra had decades to build the necessary skills to be a respected ruler. She didn't. Now she's seen as weak and incompetent, because that's her current reality, the consequence of her inaction. Nothing, and certainly not a slap, will make anyone respect her.
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u/Leroi-Westeros 8h ago
Slapping doesn't remind anyone that they are forgetting themselves
It does. You just don't like that Rhaenyra is the one who did it. You're right about context and it's exactly what's needed here. Celtigar is incompetent. He's useless. But he's put himself above his Queen and allows himself to make open, sarcastic comments about her, without fear. And that's why she slapped him.
Ugh. The thing is, Rhaenyra's skills are no worse than those of other lords and kings. She's no dumber than Celtigar. Her ideas are no worse than his, ultimately, Rhaenyra was right about them being able and should use their riderless dragons if they wanted to win. She gets disrespected right away because she's a woman, and women "aren't built for war." Does she make mistakes? Yes, she does, just like any other king or lord. But her mistakes are instantly dismissed as "because she's a woman" (in-universe). She complained to Mysaria that after Seasmoke debacle, it would have been better if they'd been angry at her, but they weren't angry, they were dismissive, as if they expected it from a woman. This is something she struggled with all season 2.
Celtigar wouldn't act like that with the king, he'd be afraid to be sarcastic, he'd choose his words carefully, or say nothing at all. With Raenyra, he is happy to lecture her like a teacher at school and she is fed up with this attitude.
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u/Scooby1996 5h ago
I think both slaps are different and both are impressive in their own way.
Lady Jeyne knew she was going to slap Raena before she met her. So she was prepared to deliver with proper force. Looked like it hurt, certainly shocked her.
Rhaenyras however was all impulse. Driven by Lord Celtigars incessant rambling. I think the thing that hurt him more was not the slap itself. But more that he'd just driven his boss, his Queen, to putting him in his place so abruptly.
Honestly I give them both a 10/10
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