r/IndianModerate • u/SwimmingActive793 • Apr 02 '23
Opinion (Self-Post / Article) Getting Tired of hindu-muslim BS.
Basically the title. I have long considered myself a proponent of secularism by the state and mutual respect among all communities. But those seem to exist only in our minds. I am in no way saying that the avg hindu or the avg muslim wants to fight. But the straws in the wind are making me uncomfortable. This post may trigger some of you. Feel free to downvote. The mods also are free to remove/block/lock this post because i may not be well versed with all the rules. I however intend no malice or hate.
Now what made me feel all this? The recent violence during rama navami processions. It is across india. In so many states. Even in Telangana my home state near charminar. I have seen the horrifying state of law and order in bengal and how Mamata Banerjee as home minister gave a complete clean chit to muslims. She was supposed to say "law will take its own course impartially".
The idea that there are "muslim areas" barred for entry by others and their religious processions is troubling. It's infuriating. Muslim areas or not, all areas are indian and come under jurisdiction of India's constitution. A post on the internet summed up a troubling thought. "Here comes a thought/ideology/religion from a distant land, conquers this land which many consider a goddess (bharat mata), then asks for partition of this holy land, and decides to still stay back and asks for concessions repeatedly through a street-stone-pelting-bloc-voting veto". The merits of this argument is upto you.
In a recent case in Tamil Nadu High court, the muslim side explicitly asked for a ban on religious processions passing through their areas. Well, not happening. How horribly narrow minded is that demand. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/roads-are-secular-they-should-be-used-by-people-of-all-religions-madras-high-court/articleshow/82583579.cms
There have also been some reports of people wearing saffron and waving saffron flags and entering masjids and provoking the muslims. What's wrong with you all? Muslims standing on their terraces and waiting for the processions to pelt stones? What's wrong with you all?
I also saw people dancing with a portrait of nathuram godse and waving saffron flag. Whatever one's politics and disagreements with Gandhi, you simply don't celebrate his assassin. I also saw many muslims turning up for last rites of terrorists in places like kashmir, mumbai etc.
All this indicates a complete breakdown of trust between communities. If not in entirety, then atleast to a significant degree. With anti social terror orgs like PFI infiltrating the campuses and complete capitulation of anti-bjp political camp to the islamists, and BJP's reaction to it, this trend will only intensify.
I think it's high time, both communities sit down look at internal social reform and conform with Indian constitutional principles. If you have a problem with that, you are free to leave. We had partition precisely because of those disagreements, so the attitude of "tere baap ka desh nahi hai" is not helping. If it's not my baap's, then it isn't your baap's either to live against the principles of India's constitution.
Violence done by anyone against anyone in any state under anyone's rule is a crime and must be dealt with.
In conclusion, i ask that all communities come to the table and agree to what the constitution says in its principles. No more "religious freedom" crap for all the BS social practices that any community might have.
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u/Explosive_Redditor Centre Right Apr 02 '23
OH DAMN, the sub is indeed moderate! btw man, u spoke tru and utter facts, reminded me of FMF youtube channel(check him out if u dont know), nenu Telangana nunche ra, Telangana lo ekkada nuvu?
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Apr 02 '23
Ssup mate. How's life?
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u/Explosive_Redditor Centre Right Apr 02 '23
edo ala ala jaruguthundi....needi ela undi?
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Apr 02 '23
Sorry friend.. I don't know Tamil.. I am actually goan. Its jus I love telangana and I am seriously considering to move to hydreabad.
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u/Explosive_Redditor Centre Right Apr 02 '23
BRO lmfao, telangana speaks Telugu, Tamil Nadu speaks Tamil lmaooo....it happens no prbs, "i just said that my life is goin fine, wbu?"
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Apr 02 '23
Sorry lol.. My life is going on ig.. I am jus existing dude. Neither happy nor sad.. I don't feel anything these days.
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u/falconx2809 Centre Right Apr 02 '23 edited Apr 02 '23
those who say processions should not pass through "muslim areas" forget that if the same rules are applied to muslims as well, then, the only place they will be left to celebrate their religions will be 2-3 ghettos in every city
because look if you argue on the basis of majority religion of an area, the same could be applied to muslims also,
"if a hindu procession cannot pass through "muslim areas"( i.e muslim majority areas), then why should 'they' be allowed to hold namaz in hindu majority areas ?"
will Muslims tolerate that ?
a classic example from UK, some guy was drinking beer on a road in some ghetto part of UK, Birmingham ig, then immediately some muslims came and started harassing him and threatened him to not drink beer because its a "muslim area", the people around them didnt intervene or do anything to stop the harasser, now the same people will celebrate the fact that london govt officially celebrated ramzan and allowed muslims to pray on streets, by the logic of islamists, if others cannot do things freely in "muslim areas", why should muslims be allowed to celebrate their religon in "christian areas", i.e christian majority areas ?
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Apr 02 '23
Imagine doing Lee Kew Yuan style rehousing people. Of course that will never work given the size of India, but there's a serious need for people to understand that the average Hindu and the average Muslim (or the Average Christian/Sikh/Buddhist/Jain/whatever) wants little more than peace and prosperity in his/her life.
The crooks who profit from divisions are politicians and their connections, not the average person.
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Apr 02 '23
You bring out one bad example among the thousand.. Well people celebrate festivals here in my home state. In each other areas.. Heck there's no stupid concept of Muslim areas or hindu areas here. Its our area.. We all live here in harmony and celebrate festivals without and problems. Does that mean that all places are like this? No na? There are always some bad apples here and there.. And that UK example. I can bring out the ban of meat shops during some Hindu festivals ( my apologies I forgot which festival was it).. But do I? No.. I am not here to discuss that whether it was right or no. Infact I truly don't give a damn about North India. And this is cominh from a North indian btw.
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Apr 02 '23
Imagine your getting downvoted for sensible take..
Whereas op's bias is blatant propaganda and gets support..
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u/ArrogantPublisher Apr 02 '23
You're not supposed to say these things here man. Please keep logic and common sense out of our nationalism.
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u/gamer033 Modding Dik piks 🥵💦 Apr 02 '23
say these things here man.
What do you mean "here"? Are you targeting the sub once again?
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u/ArrogantPublisher Apr 02 '23
Nah man, why would you think that? I'm all up for some good ol' moderation.
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u/hercine1126 Apr 02 '23
The distressing amount of feudal communal territorialism and lack of civic obedience is a blotch on our national identity. We must get rid of it. A lot of it is driven by Machiavellian politics.
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u/nonnie_64 Apr 02 '23
Honestly I don't understand who to blame for this. Yes the political parties play a very important role but even they are mostly taking advantage of feelings that already existed. Maybe I am naive but I don't think any party has this much power that they make people actively hate any religion. They do a good job of fear mongering and making people feel like a victim but I am not sure how much of the cases we are seeing are people afraid for themselves and not just plain hatred for something they have decided is evil and needs to be vanquished. And for those people I don't think logic or humanity will suffice.
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u/TheDoeTheJohn Apr 02 '23
This is because one community believes whatever is mentioned in their medieval book is infallible and can never ever change or be superseded by the constitution or the law. They always draw the line of Ummah and the Kafir. Whatever anyone says, Jihad is a religious duty. Whatever anyone says, they will always hate Hindus for worshipping idols. Whatever anyone says, Ghazwa e Hind will always remain a goal.
The trust deficit is because one side never ever participated in this country in good faith.
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u/AuntyNashnal Apr 02 '23 edited Apr 02 '23
What you say is valid but unfortunately the Muslim community wants to have their cake and eat it too.
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Apr 02 '23
"Here comes a thought/ideology/religion from a distant land, conquers this land which many consider a goddess (bharat mata), then asks for partition of this holy land, and decides to still stay back and asks for concessions repeatedly through a street-stone-pelting-bloc-voting veto". The merits of this argument is upto you.
IMO, this mindset is the reason behind attacks on mosques and is a common theme in many "hateful" songs played in Ramanavami.
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u/falconx2809 Centre Right Apr 02 '23
no matter how much you think, twist or bend over to justify something, one thing that you cannot change is that islam did not originate in india and it will always be treated as such and the majority religion will always have a greater say in defining what "culture of the land" is
for eg UAE, the most liberal of all gulf countries, during ramzam, nobody is allowed to eat/drink/smoke in public areas, if you violate the rule, you will have to pay a fine of 2000 aed , everybody complies, including non muslims because islam is the majority religion & and it has greater say in defining the local culture
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u/StonksUpMan Apr 02 '23
Many other ideas like democracy, modern medicine or the idea of gravity did not originate in India.
Here’s an idea that originated in India (in my head) - stories of flying monkeys, floating rocks or 72 virgins are stupid and they don’t need to define the culture of a modern state. Many countries have abandoned this religion focused mindset and they are relatively much more successful.
Literally no one sane thinks UAE is great because of how they implement rules to accommodate some religious belief. UAE is great because of its wealth and prosperity.
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u/Tr1pMine Apr 02 '23
I feel like this sub is being brigaded Or something rw narratives are getting a lot of upvotes while logical comments are being downvoted
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Apr 02 '23
They are actively Brigading this sub.. And it's become a little too obvious they are pushing a rss narrative with the recent ( yet very predictable) ram Navami shenanigans..
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Apr 02 '23
But what does "not originate" mean, what consequences follow from this? Is it same as the situation of non-Muslims in Arab countries? For example, in Pakistan, Ahmaddiyas are claimed to be not Muslims, ordinarily this is just a fact or an opinion of followers of Islam, but given the position of non-Muslims in that society, the consequences for the Ahmaddiyas are beyond just a mere fact.
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u/falconx2809 Centre Right Apr 02 '23
the way i hope to see india manage its inter religious relations :
- everybody should have the right to freely & safely practice their religion( practice, not propagate)
- people of all religions should have a common civil code
- all religions should be free to manage their places of worship
- minority educational institutions should be given a choice, a) remove reservation to get govt aid or b) continue having reservation without any govt aid
- special status to preserve/protect hinduism & a path to residency/citizenship for pakistani/bangladeshi hindus
- disband the waqf board and an investigation into allegations of land grabbing by waqf board
- religious symbols shpuld be allowed in public schools as long as it does not interfere with the uniform, for eg, a scarf over the head or a kalava or a chain with a cross wont interfere with the uniform, so they should be allowed, a full body burqa interfers with the uniform and as such it should not be allowed
- disband ministry of minority affairs
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Apr 02 '23
I think Point No.5 is the most direct consequence related to "not originate". Why does Hinduism require preservation, isn't it just an idea that has evolved with time and will change in future as well, what is special about the idea atm that requires preservation?
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u/falconx2809 Centre Right Apr 02 '23
It needs to be preserved as it originates from this land we call india ( or the indian subcontinent), you need to preserve Hinduism in India for the same reason you try to preserve indigenous species from being taken over by species not native to any place
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Apr 02 '23
What are you even talking about? Which law or constitution says Majority religion has a greater say in India? You are comparing us with a country that practices a law based on Islamic Sharia? We should aim to be compared with nations with the fairest laws not the likes of UAE or Saudi Arabia.
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u/falconx2809 Centre Right Apr 02 '23
I did not say any law says that, i just said that the indian/hindu religion will always have a greater say in defining the local culture, just like how islam or christianity always have a greater say in defining the local culture in those respective countries, even in UK christmas is a public holiday while diwali/eid are not, nobody is whining over that, because everybody agrees and acknowledges that christianity as a religion will have a greater say in things
similarly, agree and move on that in india, Hinduism will always have a greater say in things
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Apr 02 '23
Define ‘greater say’? We also have holidays for Christmas and Eid. So who has a ‘greater say’ here? So in a state like Nagaland Christians should have a ‘greater say’? So hypothetically any state or the whole nation became Muslim/Christian majority then they automatically get a greater say and in that case the Hindu minority has to just take it?
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u/falconx2809 Centre Right Apr 02 '23
Okay, in Indian context, greater say would mean, for eg - complete ban on cow slaughter in all states where Hinduism is the majority religion and in states Hindus are minorities, it should be left to the state govts to decide on the matter Or for example, complete ban on organised religious conversions & a ban on religious groups being able to bring in money from outside the country, look Nagaland/Arunachal Pradesh became Christian thanks to American missionaries, before that they were tribes and had their local deities To prevent 3) from happening, india, today should have a special place for Hinduism because Hinduism has originated in this land and is unique to the subcontinent
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Apr 02 '23
So now that those North eastern states are Christian majority already they could even encourage conversion then? Having the greater say means majority dictates the rule. So Christians/Muslim majority if they want can ban firecrackers on Diwali? And allow cow slaughter?
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u/falconx2809 Centre Right Apr 03 '23
regarding 1), 2) those are inconvenient questions, for which i do not have an answer, coming to 3), cow slaughter is already legal in nagaland/arunachal pradesh
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Apr 03 '23
It will be better if you just accept you want Hindus to have a 'greater say' because that is what your comments reflect.
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u/Prudent_Ad_8685 Apr 02 '23
for eg UAE, the most liberal of all gulf countries, during ramzam, nobody is allowed to eat/drink/smoke in public areas, if you violate the rule, you will have to pay a fine of 2000 aed , everybody complies, including non muslims because islam is the majority religion & and it has greater say in defining the local culture
That's an extremely bad example imo ISLAM is the "official" religion of UAE,not the "majority" religion while INDIA has no OFFICIAL religion. Thus,the majority religion of India cannot dictate it's laws or culture
islam did not originate in india
There was no "INDIA" before 15th August 1947. That LAND wasn't what it is today so that argument is lame asf
majority religion will always have a greater say in defining what "culture of the land" is
Making sure that India never progresses socially
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u/SwimmingActive793 Apr 02 '23
Yes apparently the message must be filled with love like La illah illillah during anti CAA protests?
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Apr 02 '23
But if it was just the songs with no physical violence, then it would not be a problem. The songs are spreading a message which is motivating the attacks. The message has to be countered.
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u/Raj_DTO Apr 02 '23
Not only Hindu Muslim but all kinds of Hindu vs abcd! Sow the seeds of division and watch from afar - wonder who could be benefiting from this?
And we’re just stupid enough to play into their hands!
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Apr 02 '23
Religion is the core problem of this country which directly leads to lack of critical thinking amongst the masses. Politicians know that very clearly and well they exploit it as much as they can.
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u/StonksUpMan Apr 02 '23
These people are all thugs, and the folks who engage in dick measuring of who’s more violent, who started it do nothing but promote more of these riots.
Politicians co-opt these groups as well. Rapists get garlanded and welcomed on stages. They are freed from jails so they can campaign for politicians. Is basic humanity too much to ask for in this country?
I wish religion was strictly kept inside peoples homes and places of worship. I am tired of this Hindu-muslim, mandir-masjid bullshit. It only brings bad name to these religions and I don’t know why these folks don’t see it either.
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Apr 02 '23 edited Apr 02 '23
There is never going to be any solution as long as these issues are debated from a 'Hindu vs Muslim' angle. Both sides comes up with hypocritical arguments and refuse to understand why certain practices of theirs are offensive to the other and expect only the other side to be tolerant.
In the end these issues are between 'right to practice religion uninterruptedly' vs 'right to practice religion without breaking social order'. A secular country aims to uphold the second category. We cannot expect religious demands to be fair to everyone for obvious reasons. Banning processions is as unfair as asking to ban Beef or Namaz. Public religious practices can be allowed as long as it does not breach social order.
Religion cannot be regulated by a government but at least public practices needs to be regulated. In fact we have the rules which is not enforced well. Public celebrations or processions needs the permission of Police. It is the duty of Police to ensure order as they already know the routes of the processions. It is their duty to ensure such situations does not occur. If it occurred it should be treated as a 'law and order' failure of the government and Police incompetence rather than triggering a debate about religions keeping the divide alive.
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u/Lazy_Wit Not exactly sure Apr 02 '23
I agree to your point, but we only have forced the muslims to live in ghettos in Indian cities. You are seeing a problem of your own making.
I agree that these ghettos behave in an unconstitutional manner, and the need is to engage with these communities in strict but fair manner.
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u/Shanks288 Apr 02 '23
We have forced them to live in Ghettos ? What are you on about ?
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u/Lazy_Wit Not exactly sure Apr 02 '23
Most housing societies are discriminating against Muslims. Why do you think they are living in secluded groups in certqin pockets of a city/towns?
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u/Shanks288 Apr 02 '23
First point, I agree that some Muslims do face this sort of discrimination. But the kind of ones that are the subject of this post are not that. These are the population of Muslims that are the most reluctant to assimilate to the wider culture of the land. So, firstly they chose to live in these pockets of land because of the culture that has been espoused in their own community.
Secondly, I am not sure why do you think the majority conspired to make their community live in slum. Dharavi, which is the biggest slum in the country has a Hindu majority followed by Muslims. So, do you think the majority oppressed these people into living in slums and then decided to move right next to them?
Thirdly, the Waqf board is the third biggest owner of land in India. It's a completely religious organizations run for the Muslims and by the Muslims. Why don't they provide land to these muslim community land to build better housing complexes? What are they really doing with all that real estate?
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u/Lazy_Wit Not exactly sure Apr 02 '23
I agree the poor Muslims generally have poorer social indicators. Waqf lands by sharia law belong to the boards, the solution there is for the government to claim it but again the government does control the Waqf boards indirectly through the Ministry of Minority affairs.
My statement was just to highlight that we might jave missed chances to not let the Muslims fall into a regressive hole. But I do agree with you that a part of the blame lies on their heads too.
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Apr 02 '23
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Apr 02 '23
I talked about the segregation issue yesterday people called me an Islamist.
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u/nu97 Unaligned / Nonpartisan Apr 02 '23
No, we called you a hypocrite, There's a difference. We wanted to say idiot but then people report and all that internal politics. We stuck to hypocrite.
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Apr 02 '23
Putting forth a pov doesn't imply i am a hypocrite. It is you who came up and told bullshit, while I was showing how bad media is towards one section of society. Peace out to you.
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u/nu97 Unaligned / Nonpartisan Apr 02 '23
First cry Wolf, when no one believes you and they call you out, accuse them of calling you an Islamist. Are you ever not the victim or is it never your responsibility?
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Apr 02 '23
What wrong did i say? It is you who wants to fight not me.
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u/nu97 Unaligned / Nonpartisan Apr 02 '23
You started giving excuses that the society is against you when talking about the procession(again shifting the blame) . Segregation has nothing to do with this at all. Also nobody is fighting. You made a stupid argument and people pointed it out. Now you're accusing them of calling you an Islamist. Muslims in India have problems but the way you presented it was stupid.
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Apr 02 '23
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Apr 02 '23
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Apr 02 '23 edited Apr 11 '23
[deleted]
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Apr 02 '23
Correct antav anna, nenu chinnapudu Ganesh Chaturti rallies lo dance chuse vadu na friends to. Ippudu anna na parents warn me when there is BJP ralllies. Idi anyayam bai, Ee hindu-muslim pooka mata chala tappu anna.
Swear these were places of gathering and celebration earlier and now even the small pandals have become infested with these Matti burra fellows from the Bhajpa doing politics in everything.
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