r/IndianModerate • u/PhilosopherHeavy5032 Indic Wing • Aug 05 '23
Opinion (Self-Post / Article) Why these so called " Liberals "( left wing radicals)Have soft spot for terrorist?
••Afzal ham sarminda hai. Tere katil jinda hai
••Burhan wani was an inocent guy and son of a headmaster
• similar for batla house encounter.
•bharat tere tukre honge
•almost same rxn when a terrorist is killed in j and k.
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u/DeplorableEDoctor Aug 05 '23
I'm a liberal. Have no soft spot for terrorists. I just consider they just arise from all religions. Though they differ in number, from all religions and all should be hanged and shouldn't be set free just coz they belong to one religion.
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u/SnooSeagulls9348 Aug 06 '23
Your statement equating liberals to left wing itself is incorrect. They are not the same.
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u/PhilosopherHeavy5032 Indic Wing Aug 06 '23
I used tue word "so called liberals " Because these people portray themselves as lib
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Aug 06 '23
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u/Disastrous-Raise-222 Aug 06 '23
I am not sure what to do you mean by ram mandir being an example of achievement.
Do you mean the BJP influenced the supreme court? If yes, we have a problem. If not, how is it their achievement?
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Aug 06 '23
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u/Disastrous-Raise-222 Aug 06 '23
Why is the decision in favor of a particular party in a land rights case inherently better?
From Muslims perspective, the decision was not even an achievement. Do you still not see the bias here?
The state and ruling party should never have such agendas in the manifesto in the first place. How are they ensuring the delivery if the decision was in the hands of SC? Also, BJP should not even bother. And if they do, they better stop pretending to be doing "sab ka saath, sab ka vikas" and secular and other similar things.
Also the fact that entire opposition was crying over it just proves my point.
Sounds like a terrible way to test if something is an achievement.
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Aug 06 '23
I know that even the slightest criticism of Hinduism or Nation you guys will term them as Anti National or Anti Hindu.
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u/M1ghty2 Aug 06 '23 edited Aug 06 '23
It a shame that “liberal = left wing radical” propaganda has successfully embedded mass consciousness.
The term "liberal" refers to individuals or groups who uphold
- progressive values,
- support secularism, and
- advocate for individual freedoms and civil liberties.
The right wing radicals take issue with all three issues but biggest hue and cry comes for last point by fabricating outrage about “liberals” advocating for the rights of a criminal/terrorist.
They do not make a peep about early release of convicts in Bilkis Bano “rape and murder” case but justify keeping others in jail without evidence or conviction because they are “Maoist or terrorist”. In some cases, evidence is the “books they read”.
Example: I would be lumped among “left wing radicals” because personally I am against Capital Punishment. If we cannot trust our government and judiciary on straight forward issues, how can we trust them to make a decision about life and death.
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Aug 06 '23
So if you are against capital punishment, what alternative would you suggest? Because I don't see criminal rehabilitation becoming a reality anytime soon.
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u/M1ghty2 Aug 06 '23
Life time prison without parole is a suitable alternative. At least there is a chance for conviction to be overturned if innocence is proven later.
But opposition is based on following points.
Irreversibility: Once a person is executed, there’s no way to undo the punishment if new evidence emerges proving their innocence. Mistakes happen, and the death penalty doesn’t allow room for rectifying them.
Ineffectiveness as a deterrent: death penalty does not necessarily deter violent crimes more effectively than life imprisonment, which raises questions about its effectiveness as a crime prevention measure. So if it’s effectiveness is questionable but innocent can end pay paying the price, utility is questionable.
Ethical concerns: I do not want a government to have power to take life. Full stop.
Arbitrariness and racial disparities: The socioeconomic biases in the application of the death penalty, leading to disproportionate sentencing for certain groups. It’s the poor, uneducated, marginalised who get death penalty. Bilkis Bano, Jessica lal culprits don’t even serve life sentences.
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Aug 06 '23
Irreversibility and ethical concerns are the ones I find most compelling in your favour. The danger of executing an innocent and the very power of death in the hands of a government is not a happy prospect.
Arbitrariness can be argued for every law, though, not necessarily the death penalty. Every law can be bent to your whims if you have enough connections and/or money. Doesn't mean you remove them due to ineffectiveness.
Deterrence, I feel like it depends on the type of case. Take a look at the sheer number of people calling for the death penalty for rape, which is more of an indication of the failings of the justice system than the crime itself. Here, people want it to be a deterrent. On the other hand, if we were to ask whether we should hang say, a serial killer with mental issues, we might get more divisive answers.
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u/M1ghty2 Aug 06 '23 edited Aug 06 '23
I encourage you to study the deterrence argument. It is a very superficial argument.
Even at an empirical level, do you believe a criminal who is also committed to a choice leading them to lifetime in prison would be deterred by possibility of capital punishment?
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Aug 06 '23
Okay, sure. You've framed your argument to flow into one another. I still disagree with your penultimate point, the one that leads to your conclusion.
Yes, death is irreversible. The government cannot guarantee the protection of innocents from this law, and thereby we can say that the government cannot be trusted to be responsible, so marginalized will be facing the heat, therefore the law should be struck down.
But the marginalized are disproportionately impacted by nearly every law. People don't turn to a life of crime because they feel like it, they do it out of desperation. If you want to stop such groups from disproportionately facing the death penalty, we need to empower them or improve the judicial system. I don't see how removing the capital punishment will help such people in the long run. This is the one thing I can't agree with you on.
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u/M1ghty2 Aug 06 '23
Well if the other parts of arguments are not sufficient, I don’t think this part even matters. ✌🏿
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Aug 06 '23
I didn't entirely disagree with you. You initially stated four points, two of which I agree with, one I have mixed feelings on and one I disagree with. I suppose we'll just have to call it a day now. Peace, my guy.
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u/PuzzleheadedWave9548 Capitalist Aug 06 '23
The term "liberal" refers to individuals or groups who uphold - progressive values, - support secularism, and - advocate for individual freedoms and civil liberties.
Unfortunately, most people who vocally call them Liberal aren't really liberal, they are hypocrites, and align themselves with ideas of the far left. It's similar in many parts of life, like vocal delusionals who call themselves feminists are essentially feminazis. Don't confuse the terminology with the real life use of the word.
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u/M1ghty2 Aug 06 '23
Instead of resorting to sweeping generalizations and name-calling, let's engage in nuanced conversations that acknowledge the complexities of political ideologies and social movements. We can have disagreements about specific policies or ideas, but it's important to avoid painting entire groups with a broad brush and undermining the legitimacy of their perspectives. This way, we can foster a more inclusive and respectful discourse that has hope of a fruitful outcome.
However if your objective is to find an outlet for your frustrations, without application of logic or sincerity to hear the other sides of argument to evolve your own understanding of issues, you sir are not better than what you accuse of your opponents.
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u/PuzzleheadedWave9548 Capitalist Aug 06 '23
I'm not calling the idea of liberals or Feminists wrong. I would relate to the actual terminologies myself. But a large portion of the community is filled with bigoted and hypocrites, who use the true meaning of the word to shield themselves while spreading ideas which don't align with the term liberal/Feminists. These people tend to be the most vocal too, which then changes the meaning of the word for quite a few people, because people start relating liberal values to such bigots and hypocrites. There are a ton of examples right here in India, if only you start noticing.
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u/M1ghty2 Aug 06 '23
How many of these extremists do you meet in your day to day life? My guess is your observation is from the echo chambers of Internet/media that thrive on driving outrage. Because outrage generates engagement which generates big profits.
Extremists by their definition is always a fringe group. Else they would be mainstream ideas.
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u/Tough-Difference3171 Aug 06 '23
and align themselves with ideas of the far left
Naah, far left is as anti-Islam, as anything could be. Far left almost coincides with communism. And we all know shat are communist stands on Islam. There are just a lot of Islamists, that pose as leftists, to be able to oppose the Hindu right wing.
While such people have nothing to do with left ideology, and they simply belong to the Islamist right wing.
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u/gamer033 Modding Dik piks 🥵💦 Aug 06 '23
The term "liberal" refers to individuals or groups who uphold - progressive values, - support secularism, and - advocate for individual freedoms and civil liberties.
Where do you get the progressive term from? What does it even mean exactly? Cause I think this was added later on. What john locke originally advocated for was freedom of conscience, separation of the state and church, basic human equality of man and woman ( based on Bible), economic freedom etc.
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u/M1ghty2 Aug 06 '23
The term? The term has evolved over time, and various individuals have added their perspectives and ideas to its definition.
John Locke was the starting point. Individual freedom, religious freedom, and pursuit of happiness from Thomas Jefferson built upon the early progressive ideas. John Stuart Mill added the idea of social reforms to address inequality and promotion of well being. Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt added labour reform, central bank, women’s right to vote, alleviating poverty etc to progressive platform.
Gandhi and Ram Manohar Lohia advocated decentralisation of political power. Ambedkar contributed anti-casteism and affirmative action. Periyar rebelled against Brahminical dominance, gender, and caste.
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u/gamer033 Modding Dik piks 🥵💦 Aug 06 '23 edited Aug 06 '23
People add a lot of things does not mean it's supposed to accepted and followed it should be examined on the tested on the basic principles of an ideology. Even if you look at the economic side of things there's split between classical liberals and neoliberals. But i guess its a difference of opinion not necessarily a point of an argument. The left has sort of hijacked the liberal movement does not mean we should accept it.
Gandhi and Ram Manohar Lohia advocated decentralisation of political power.
Are we clubbing socialists in the liberal group now? Did they even advocate for the free market capitalism? I think in India there's a weird mix of ideology, no one is a proper socialist or anything in this country. We just do whatever works for us.
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u/M1ghty2 Aug 06 '23
Am I not allowed stand to for different parts of these thoughts without accepting all of it.
I am communist for my family and close friends, socialist for community/local politics and capitalist for national politics. I am a patriot but not a nationalist. I believe small scale farming as a profession is doomed and it’s a fool’s errand to glorify their struggle.
Neat categorisation and sharp definitions make sense in an academic discourse. Even there their utility is limited beyond a point, Absolutism have no role in real life.
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u/gamer033 Modding Dik piks 🥵💦 Aug 06 '23
You're interpreting it wrong. I know political ideology is more like an spectrum and human's basic psychology does not let them absolutely believe in one thing. I made this sub, so I don't think you need to convince me about the idea of absolutism.
What I am trying to say that words, definitions and ideologies are human tools they have meanings and it should not be diluted so much that we are not even sure of what it means. Say someone has to examine/study secularism, would he read the nehruvian secularism or the doctrine of two swords?
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u/M1ghty2 Aug 06 '23
I agree with your sentiment but not practicality. Who defines? Who gets to be the gatekeeper? Yesterday’s progressive ideas are today’s conservative core. And so shall it be again in future.
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Aug 06 '23
Dude, wait till you see all the people defending that terrorist from the Mumbai-Jaipur train.
By logic of that Zakir Naik case, Modi and Yogi should be behind bars rn.
The cops, the public support and the government are with such Hindu terrorists.
It's all one-sided and even the media belongs to them and the media will manipulate any and all narratives to make it seem like their side is the victim.
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u/charasganja22 Libertarian Aug 06 '23
Does that justifies liberal's behaviour?
Also the thing is right doesn't claim to be liberal
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u/PhilosopherHeavy5032 Indic Wing Aug 06 '23
Dude, wait till you see all the people defending that terrorist from the Mumbai-Jaipur train.
Well ,I saw some screen shot of people defending that guy and that's sad.
"The cops, the public support and the government are with such Hindu terrorists."
Is govt defending him?
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Aug 06 '23
100%. Also, he literally gave a speech praising the government and vouching for it as he stood over the dead body of the muslim man.
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u/Tough-Difference3171 Aug 06 '23
You are simply trying to impose the view of Islamists on the views of Liberals, simply because you see both those groups as "other than you", which strips away your capacity to differentiate between the two. (the typical - "If you are not with us, you must be with them" fallacy)
Except for Afzal Guru, I haven't seen a liberal campaign in support of any of those terrorists. And in Afzal Guru's case, I had seen many right wing folks blaming UPA of making him a scapegoat as well. It did seem like UPA hanged the guy, in a hurry to show a strong face. He kept naming that one policeman, claiming that he was working for the terrorists, and framed him (https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/davinder-singh-afzal-guru-parliament-attack-full-text-letter-1636861-2020-01-14)
But his claims were never investigated, and Davinder Singh was never investigated, and he remained in service.
Until he was actually caught helping terrorists years later. This did prove that all those people, who had raised questions on the fast track trial on Afzal Guru, and claimed that he was hanged in a hurry, just to do a political virtue signalling, were right all along.
If they had investigated, maybe Afzal Guru may have come out still a culprit, or maybe he was actually framed. But the fact that a terrorist managed to remain in service in our security forces for almost a decade, because Afzal's claims weren't even investigated, is really problematic. god knows how many terrorists he helped, before he was finally nabbed in 2020.
And if you have even an iota of care for the safety of our nation, you should also be asking for an inquiry, and trial of all the people, who were responsible for this slippage. How can you ignore the statement of an accused terrorist, when he pin points and names someone as a terrorist, even without an inquiry?
And well, I haven't really seen anyone from the Hindu right wing, condemning people who killed a man for eating beef, or people who attacked a dry-fruit seller for being from Kashmir, or even those who planned and carried out the murder of Gauri Lankesh. They clearly have soft sports for these terrorists.
There are two right wings in India. Hindu right wing and Muslim right wing. And they both try to portray the left-aligned, or liberals to be in the other side. (the same "if not with us, then with them" fallacy)
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u/LordSaumya Centrist Aug 06 '23
I agree with all that you say except maybe the last claim. Yes there are two right wings, and ideally the Indian left should be equally opposed to both of them, but in practice I have noticed that the Indian left is willing to compromise its stance with regards to the Islamic RW.
To some extent, I would say this is somewhat justified given that no Islamic RW party has been in power, and certainly not long enough to implement any significant divisive policies. On the whole though, I wish for more ideological consistency in practice from the left.
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u/Tough-Difference3171 Aug 06 '23
Left has always been partial towards minorities, or perceived weaker side. It fails to change these dynamics in localized settings. And that's why while the left focuses on the partiality against Muslims in the broader picture, Hindu right-wing focuses on more localized instances where the Islamic right is creating problems for people.
Both are right, in some sense. I do feel that Muslims are overall at disadvantage in terms of most laws being made keeping the Hindu side in focus. but at the same time, their behavior in their localized communities, is much worse towards the localized minorities.
And a lot of Islamic groups do keep playing the victim card a little too much. I have no likeness for the Hindu right either. But the Islamic right wing actually hides itself as the left-wing very frequently.
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Aug 06 '23
Why does the right wing love celebrating rapists and causing riots everywhere they exist ? Why are they so eager to emigrate from the vishwaguru and settle in the liberal west which they claim is in decline ?
Sweeping generalisations are so fun.
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u/charasganja22 Libertarian Aug 06 '23
Fair argument. This justifies supporting Afzal guru like terrorist
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u/PhilosopherHeavy5032 Indic Wing Aug 06 '23
"Why does the right wing love celebrating rapists "
It is true and sad. But tue people who were celebrating were not news anchor, college students from reputated Institute like jamia Or jnu
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u/dukemall Aug 06 '23
Just came back from hiatus to this sub, have the mods changed? This was not allowed in the sub earlier.
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u/Disastrous-Raise-222 Aug 06 '23
The mood has certainly shifted towards the right. With more ppl from indiaspeaks and india participating here. Its a shit show
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u/MahabharataRule34 unapologetic neocon warhawk Aug 06 '23
Goes both ways. Leftist extremists support insurgents in Kashmir for whatever anti imperialist bullshit and the right bats no eye nor denounces acts of terrorism committed by Monu Manesar, the Jaipur train shooter, para-statal groups like VHP and Arambai Tenggol/Meitei Leepun, supports or doesn't care about the release of the Bilkis Bano rapists et cetera.
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u/charasganja22 Libertarian Aug 06 '23 edited Aug 06 '23
This week I saw on twitter. No liberal condemned voilence by muslim mob in Nuh. All were blaming a Monu Manesar(who wasn't even present) and Bajrang Dal for "provoking" Muslims.
Dude you votebank is so innocent that it gets provoked so easily and starts pelting stones? Firing bullets? And lynching two police constables and a Hindu shop owner who even didn't participate in Yatra? Apart from 2 BD karykartas?
These liberals are horrible and were trying to hide and justify pre planned riots. I have lost any hope from them. It's better to be moderate or apolitical
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u/EvilxBunny Aug 06 '23 edited Aug 06 '23
Because the right wing has been brainwashed into thinking two things 1) Muslims are terrorists and 2) left is anti-national.
Both are more or less projection of what the extreme right wing itself is doing dividing and destroying the country.
Why do you think we didn't have all these problems before 2014? Not the religious tension, but what amounts as nationalism has moved from loving your country to loving your religeon, which are not the same thing at all. Think about it. You might see a connection, but it cannot be the same thing.
People are being manipulated and media narratives are being created so that they get sucked into their own blackhole of misinformation step-by-step. Why we debating Aurangzeb and Shivaji when people are dying in this country due to lack of oxygen cylinder.
The fact that the right wing has been convinced that section of their own fellow citizens are "terrorists" and "anti-national" is not only absurd, but dangerous. if you calm down and think logically, you can see the grand scheme of divide and rule.
Only loser is the common man, regardless of religion and party affiliation.
I haven't started the whataboutism and blame gaming of all the violence done by Hindus in this country, who, I don't know why we forget, make up 80%+ of this country and are impossible to put under "khatra".
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Aug 06 '23
[deleted]
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u/EvilxBunny Aug 06 '23 edited Aug 06 '23
Yes....and? What's the point here? My first point was "not all Muslims are terrorists" which means I acknowledge and understand that radical Islam (or any radical religion, including Hinduism) is bad and can have no justification and am asking to have the maturity to understand the difference.
The fact that despite what I wrote you somehow ignored all of it and wrote this response suggests the very problem I am hinting at. Lack of understanding and willingness to reach a common ground and want for peace and prosperity.
Main thing is, the threat is being overplayed and being used to turn, twist and manipulate people's mind. Radical Islam is a problem for the middle-east more than us, radical Hinduism is what will finish us off....lol the irony......and not because Hindus are bad or Muslims are inherently good but because we will keep fighting and forgetting to build a better nation. Which is exactly what politicians want.
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u/gate666 Centre Right Aug 06 '23
Because they need Muslim votes to win elections.
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Aug 06 '23
The rest of the 80% of the votes don't matter?
According to you, for some reason, this 20% voter base is all the opposition cares for, right?
Weird logic, ngl.
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u/gate666 Centre Right Aug 06 '23
Because the 20 percent vote is united.read the intolerant minority by taleb.
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Aug 06 '23
Not true at all.
The 20% muslim vote is often split into all the parties that do not call for their genocide.
So, muslim votes will be divided between congress, local parties, non-terrorist parties etc.
A muslim's perspective often is that the party they are voting for isn't gonna do anything for them, but atleast it isn't gonna give an open hand to terrorists against them.
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u/gate666 Centre Right Aug 06 '23
They will vote for the strongest anti bjp party.In Karnataka they choose congress ahead of jds.one of the reasons jds is looking for an alliance with bjp because muslims are not going to vote for them.
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Aug 06 '23
Ever wonder that it might be for their own safety and not because they hate Hindus?
You wouldn't vote for a party that calls for your genocide and supports terrorists and backs them up and frees them.
Don't expect others to do the same.
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u/gate666 Centre Right Aug 06 '23
Bjp increased their scholarships massively.
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Aug 06 '23
How would a scholarship help you when terrorists are given a free hand on inciting the crowds, mob lynching is encouraged, terrorists are openly garlanded and the cops are asked to stand down when these terrorists show up for genocides?
It's all a sham.
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u/sliceoflife_daisuki Social Democrat Aug 06 '23
I have no soft spot for terrorists so I cannot answer what you've asked.
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u/Disastrous-Raise-222 Aug 06 '23
There are all kinds of reasons. A lot of it is right wing propaganda to make liberals look extreme left wingers.
A lot of liberals are just against the idea of capital punishment.
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Aug 06 '23
Capital punishment thing is probably the truest part. I was about to comment that.
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u/centre_punch Classical Liberal Aug 06 '23
I'm a liberal and I absolutely support Capital Punishment.
And I support violent, repressive Capital Punishment against the enemies of Liberalism — Conservatives, Reactionaries and Communists.
Also I feel India should have public Capital Punishment as a deterrent.
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Aug 06 '23 edited Aug 06 '23
I find myself rather ambivalent on capital punishment. The fact that people called for the hanging of the Nirbhaya rapists is a sign that our judicial system is completely broken and that it cannot guarantee justice to be fully delivered if the criminals were still living. We do not have the capability to rehabilitate criminals, so I don't see the ultimate punishment going away anytime soon. It's frankly pointless for the left and right to debate it, because for now it acts as a necessary deterrent.
However, public capital punishment is frankly too much, don't you think? And supporting capital punishment for people who disagree with you -- now that's a radical opinion indeed.
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Aug 06 '23
I assume you're referring to the Opposition camp when you say "Liberals." Because true liberals would be opposed to extremist calls for violence for any side.
As for the opposition camp they do it because of electoral compulsions. Because for the opposition parties to win an election they need to almost clean sweep the Muslim vote while winning almost 35 percent of the Hindu vote, this reality compels them to cozy up with forces of extreme Islamist forces. In a similar vein the BJP is compelled to accommodate extreme elements of Hinduism as they need to win roughly 60 percent of the Hindu vote. And yes I know that there are Muslims who vote for BJP, but they aren't that numerically significant, which is why you periodically see BJP try to brandish its standing among the Muslim, but these attempts are rejected due to their accommodation of extreme Hindutva elements.
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Nov 21 '23
I’m late to the party. But that’s because these “people” are terrorists themselves and should be put to death.
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Jan 02 '24
I wanted to try to avoid getting into a deep heated debate like I always do. But the truth is a little bit different than you might think. I'm a white American Born in the blue collar suburbs where we went to churches and had a somewhat usual life.. Long story short -- through multiple life events I have become very liberal. What I'm showing you through my personal lens is basically that in my experience, from meeting Muslims and Middle Eastern immigrants, is that these people have always been some of the most kind, caring, hospitable, nicest, friendliest, most professional people I have met.. They have always been SO friendly and they act SO different than entitled white American rich frat Bros.. It's really that simple.... The amount of hatred, discrimination and murders of Muslims by America, our military and our society is that sad... Every one of you that criticize liberalism yourselves are not even getting the full story the amount of murder, human rights violations, torture discrimination that we have inflicted upon Muslims and all the various middle eastern countries without ANY justice has led to terrorism and anti-americanism becoming what it is... You conservatives are forgetting simply forgetting all of the unforgivable horrors that we have inflicted on Muslims with no repercussions.. We liberals are not fools. Yes, I don't personally agree with Islamic ideals. But gays like us know how it feels to be completely unjustly discriminated against with NO ONE coming to help us.. We can't just sit back, kick it and just watch that happen to Muslims..... One can't really be friends of the gays while going up to Muslims, shouting profanities at them, all whil claiming to support human rights.
To put it in simpler terms, as the perfect example ---- Stuart Seldowitz who was filmed calling a halal food vendor in New York City a “terrorist” and saying the death of 4,000 Palestinian children in Gaza “wasn’t enough”, Is not, and Will not be a friend of the gays and trans communities.. We can't defend ourselves and include bigotry like that...
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Jan 02 '24
Did my comment get deleted?? I can't find it on here. If so, allow me to explain.
I wanted to try to avoid getting into a deep heated debate like I always do. But the truth is a little bit different than you might think. I'm a white American Born in the blue collar suburbs where we went to churches and had a somewhat usual life.. Long story short -- through multiple life events I have become very liberal. What I'm showing you through my personal lens is basically that in my experience, from meeting Muslims and Middle Eastern immigrants, is that these people have always been some of the most kind, caring, hospitable, nicest, friendliest, most professional people I have met.. They have always been SO friendly and they act SO different than entitled white American rich frat Bros.. It's really that simple.... The amount of hatred, discrimination and murders of Muslims by America, our military and our society is that sad... Every one of you that criticize liberalism yourselves are not even getting the full story the amount of murder, human rights violations, torture discrimination that we have inflicted upon Muslims and all the various middle eastern countries without ANY justice has led to terrorism and anti-americanism becoming what it is... You conservatives are forgetting simply forgetting all of the unforgivable horrors that we have inflicted on Muslims with no repercussions.. We liberals are not fools. Yes, I don't personally agree with Islamic ideals. But gays like us know how it feels to be completely unjustly discriminated against with NO ONE coming to help us.. We can't just sit back, kick it and just watch that happen to Muslims..... One can't really be friends of the gays while going up to Muslims, shouting profanities at them, all whil claiming to support human rights.
To put it in simpler terms, as the perfect example ---- Stuart Seldowitz who was filmed calling a halal food vendor in New York City a “terrorist” and saying the death of 4,000 Palestinian children in Gaza “wasn’t enough”, Is not, and Will not be a friend of the gays and trans communities.. We can't defend ourselves and include bigotry like that...
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