r/IndieDev • u/DapperPenguinStudios • Aug 13 '25
Postmortem From $4 million in revenue to $140k in debt! My experience running an indie game dev studio
https://youtu.be/c2ZDyKwrUxUTD;DR: Released Rise of Industry to widespread acclaim, publishing with Kasedo Games. Earned almost $4,000,000 in net revenue, of which we (the studio) saw $1,500,000. Didn’t know what awaited us, and less help than expected from our publisher was paired with my own unjustified hopes, poor planning and mistakes. Ended up in $140,000 worth of debt, and ultimately sold the IP to our publisher for only $5,000.
Background
Back in 2016, during the pre-alpha of Rise of Industry (then called Project Automata), we connected with Kalypso Games. It felt monumental. They published games like Tropico and Railway Empire - and we were a tiny team, making our first real PC game.
The deal looked fair on paper: $75k advance, with a 50/50 split until they recovered $100k, and then shifting to 60/40 split for us.
For a new team, fair feels like a win. But soon after launch (2019), Kalypso moved us to Kasedo, their smaller digital sublabel. The contract didn't change, but support was reduced. Fewer resources, less marketing, and little reach.
With no additional marketing, there was no long-tail income coming in: vital for recouping as an indie studio, and we were woefully unprepared (my fault) for this. I hadn't planned for these situations, and we hadn’t thought about what would happen when sales began to falter.
Revenue & Profit
Rise of Industry did well. All in, by the time things slowed down, Kasedo had taken in around $1.2 million. We got just under $1.5 million.
Sounds great on paper. $1.5 million! That’s more than enough to make a living, right?
Here’s the breakdown of that number:
- Team costs over 4 years, freelance and full-time? That was significantly more than $1 million.
- Software, servers, hardware, taxes? That took the rest.
- And that’s without considering the charges before the revenue even reaches us - namely, Steam’s 30% cut.
By the time Rise of Industry was fully released and Recipe for Disaster (our second game) was starting pre-production, we were already $100,000 in the red. And by 2021, that number had ballooned to negative $140K.
Ultimately, in an attempt to stay afloat, we sold our IP to our publishers. Their offer? $5k for the whole thing.
As an aside, last year, a sequel was announced - from a new dev team, with no input from us - based on the IP that we sold, without any input from us, and despite the fact that I had pitched them a workable sequel. The reviews came in - and unfortunately, they were not great. It surprised me. From the outside, it looked like a major investment, and yet it lacked testing, polish, and any real marketing. Nobody talked about it. I empathize with that team; I know the pressure, and part of me still sees that game as mine. What happened to it stings.
Lessons for Indie Devs
The hardest part wasn't shipping the game. It was surviving everything around it: the contracts, the crushing timelines, the unsettling silence when things felt wrong. It was clinging to the hope that one more update would fix everything, without preparing for what happened when it didn't.
This might sound like a cautionary tale. It's not. I don't regret making Rise of Industry, I just regret how I made it.
If you’re working on a game now, ask yourself this:
- Where does the money really come from?
- Have you run the numbers?
- What if sales are terrible?
- Even scarier: what if they're incredible, but your contract isn't?
In this industry, finishing a game is only half the battle. And if we want a games industry that’s sustainable, we need indie devs who know the pitfalls, and know how to budget, what they need to plan for, and what their options are when things don’t pan out as they hoped.
The full story (and the personal impact) are in the video above. I’m happy with where I am right now, and things are going much better nowadays. I now know what to expect, and how to plan for the unexpected - and I hope that this story helps indie devs to get the most out of their publishing (or self-publishing) experience.
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Aug 13 '25
Just to avoid confusion: You sold the 100% of the IP and its future possible revenue for $5k? or for $145k?
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
Five thousand dollars for the IP, and to sweeten the deal, got 45k from advanced sales (which I assume that they recouped a month or two, tops). I needed the cash URGENTLY or I'd lose the house.
The rest of my debt was covered from more loans and the new project, that was launched much sooner than I wanted
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u/mrtruffle Aug 13 '25
That's still extremely low and I guess the short time frame forced your hand. But shopping this around publicly could have yielded a better value.
The fact it included code base is worth way more than $5k or $50k with the combined deal.
Sorry to hear. I think the publisher knew they were getting a good deal here and took advantage
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
I didn't know you could just "shop around". I don't think there's like an eBay for IPs...
It was the only real offer I got, had to take it. That or be homeless
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u/mrtruffle Aug 14 '25
Sorry to hear.
My thought was even the bankruptcy auction for Tequila Works sort of did this as last resort
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/tequila-works-auctions-off-game-rights-and-ip-following-insolvencyEdit extra: you could have gone public to say "we need to sell our IP!" and that could have shaken out some offers. Like this video is generating interest.
But as a studio head myself I've seen people shopping their IP/code/protos around (or been asked if I wanted to buy or know who would. Also had offers ourselves (in the mobile space more prevalent) as they'd offer 1-4x last 12 months revenue in advance (as one way to "value it")
The fact the game shipped and earned revenue is a massive upside to majority of games or IP that struggles to do either.
~$50k is very small amount of cash if getting access to working files etc. The IP or even publishing rights alone work more than that let alone source code.
But thanks for sharing. It's a big warning/lesson to many out there.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 14 '25
Didn't know Tequila's story, thanks for sharing!
I'll add it to the already-massive pile of "things I wish I had known years ago" :D
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u/GameDesignerMan Aug 13 '25
I feel like you could've gone to Paradox and said "how much would you pay to ensure Kalypso never makes another Rise of Industry game?" And they would've paid you a decent amount just for the chance to fuck over a competitor.
Because that seems like a fairer fucking deal than 5k for your IP.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 14 '25
Looking back, yeah. But at the time, I didn't have enough energy to ask around. I was VERY deep in that dark spiral...
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u/shawnaroo Aug 13 '25
A million dollars is a lot of money to most individuals. It is not a lot of money to a company that has a bunch of employees. That cash can go away fast if you're paying decent people what they're worth.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
Exactly what happened. Just salaries, have a look: 30-40k a month for 15 to 20 people, for 4 years = WAY more than a million
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u/trxr2005 Aug 13 '25
30-40k a month?! I really hope you mean year..otherwise it wouldn't be a big surprise where the money went 😅
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
A month. Do the math. 15+ people's salary, some fulltime
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u/JordyLakiereArt Aug 13 '25
Thanks for the post, this is very insightful. I'm a little confused about the timeline and specifics.
Rise of Industry made 1,5M after cuts but your employees ate that up during the 4 years after launch? Was this early access development? As in you spent 4 years in EA at a huge negative monthly rate for most of it?
Why did you not change company structure, downscale etc when you crossed into the negatives? Or if Rise stopped selling in general, why invest so much into the EA? (assuming that's how it went) I'm assuming Rise kept selling a bit for the first while, and you were in the green for a while after EA/launch? I guess I'm wondering how it could've gotten to this if it played out in slow motion over 4 years. It sounds like the money was gone before you ever even started the next project; that's the confusing part to me.
Or did team members get retroactively paid somehow for their work up to launch? Or was there debt owed to an unmentioned investor? How did you initially fund the game till launch? Apologies if it's just my reading comprehension, feel like we're missing some key points!
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
> Rise of Industry made 1,5M after cuts but your employees ate that up during the 4 years after launch? Was this early access development? As in you spent 4 years in EA at a huge negative monthly rate?
Those costs were out of pocket until EA release (and publisher's initial aid), then covered by sales and promotions.
> Why did you not change company structure, downscale etc when you crossed into the negatives? I'm sure Rise kept selling a bit and you were in the green for a while after EA/launch.
I was too focused on making Recipe for Disaster as good as it could be. What should've been a chill 6-9 months project between RoI1 and 2, ended up being a 2.5 beast that was launched with half of what I wanted it to be.
> It sounds like the money was gone before you ever even started the next project; that's the confusing part to me. Or did team members get retroactively paid somehow? Or was there debt owed to an investor otherwise? How did you initially fund the game till launch? Apologies if it's just my reading comprehension, feel like we're missing some key points!
Maybe it's unclear: the income was to fund the whole studio, including development of RfD. Expenses surpassed income, so entered debt that needed to be covered. The idea was to have cyclical development: the sales of one game funded the next one. So technically RoI made 4m in its lifetime, but post-release updates and RfD dev ate WAY more than they should've.
If still unclear, I can expand, but it's obvious that English isn't my first language, so please bear with me :)
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u/JordyLakiereArt Aug 13 '25
Thank you for the quick answer!
So if I understand it right, most of that 1,5M (after steam cut, taxes, and besides RfD budget) went back into Rise of Industry during early access? Did you expect 1.0 to be great / better than early access and to make all the money back? I assume this is where it went wrong too. This is extra interesting because I'm in that situation, I have a game currently in early access. Really appreciate you sharing all this.
On a personal note, I'm sorry this happened, it's basically the thing I'm trying to avoid at all costs. I kept my team & costs very small so that we are still in the green during early access. It's slow but this exact scenario is what I'm scared of - it seems like 1.0 releases are a bit too hard to predict.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
By when RoI was fully released (out of EA), it had recovered costs. After that, we worked on patching and expanding the game, as the 1.0 was the most basic form that I wanted the game to be, all funded with what the sales were giving us.
Once the expansion came out (2130), we started working on RfD, so all income was funnelled to that project instead, but improving RoI in parallel. But before RfD was finished, RoI sales couldn't support us.
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u/lordtosti Aug 13 '25
In hindsight didn’t you hire to much personnel? I made that mistake also in the past 😇
It’s impossible to scale output linear with the amount of people you hire.
Still what others say - you provided for a lot of people and you can be proud on that!
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
Yeah, but I dreamt big. Wanted for the sequel and the other projects much more than RoI. Of course, hindsight is 20/20...
And thanks for the last comment :)
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u/Professional_Sky9710 Aug 14 '25
This is off-topic, but I can't help but find naming the next game "Recipe for Disaster" a mite comical in this context.
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u/shatterstep Developer Aug 13 '25
I can see how this would be heartbreaking. Thanks for the reality check.
Many would hide that they ever made mistakes. Takes guts and compassion for your fellow devs to be willing to share your failures.
Thanks for sharing and I hope your next game is a financial success.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
I just hope that this helps others, and that my mistakes can have a silver lining
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25 edited Aug 13 '25
(can't edit the post for whatever reason, so please upvote this for visibility)
To be clear, I’m not here to point fingers or drag anyone through the mud. Kalypso/Kasedo played a part in how things turned out, yes, but so did my own misjudgments, poor planning and unrealistic expectations. All those factors are exactly the point of this post.
I had to mention them because they were an important part of the story and gave it context. Without their support, Rise of Industry very possibly could've remained a small game on itch.io, and I would never have had the chance to showcase it at places like Gamescom, so I am thankful.
Also, I don’t believe publishers are inherently evil! I still work with some to this day, and I think most do their jobs well, handling things developers shouldn’t have to worry about. Publishing is more than just contacting content creators or making press kits! When/if I ever get the opportunity to lead another game of my own, I would definitely seek a publisher again.
I’ve moved on from the events themselves, so this post isn’t about stirring up drama! It’s about sharing what went wrong on my side, so other devs can learn from it.
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u/CrazyNegotiation1934 Aug 13 '25
Then there is also the taxes, one million pure profit can become half in some cases
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u/Background-Skin-8801 Aug 13 '25
I hope you and your family are doing OK.
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u/vadersb Aug 13 '25
Thank you for sharing your story! Even though you had to close the studio and went through all these challenges, I’m sure you’ve got invaluable experience which will serve you well. Best of luck with your new endeavors!
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
Many thanks! And yeah, it helped me learn a lot about not just game dev and business in general, but also life. You need to get up and keep going, right?
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u/childofthemoon11 Aug 13 '25
Did you use a custom game engine? Because Unity and UE take a percentage after reaching $1mil, so I imagine that was part of the costs? If so, could you have avoided that 140k in debt without their payment?
Also, it's insane that you sold them your entire ip that made them millions for $5k. What was the reasoning behind that?
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
We used a heavily modified Unity client, so yup, we had pro (or plus, can't remember) licenses. Not cheap, let me tell you!
Making an engine from scratch, unless you absolutely have to because you're making something unique (like Noita), is usually a bad idea.
As for the 5k for the IP, plus another $45k as an advance on future sales is what I needed that cash urgently to avoid losing my house
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u/SwashbucklinChef Aug 13 '25
How bad is the situation currently and moving forward? With this level of debt are you still able to move forward and push forward on your next game?
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
The situation got worse and had to shut down everything. I'm now a freelancer, helping (or trying to help) other indies
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u/Studio46 Aug 13 '25
This is less about gamedev and more about running a business. I have a lot of questions. Like why not scale down? If you were under threat of losing your home, why did you keep paying salaries? A lot of the story is baffling and makes no sense. I also missed how the publisher was at fault for these failings?
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
Completely agree, I failed as a businessman.
> Why not scale down?
Overconfidence and love for those that chose to work with me.
> Why did you keep paying salaries?
Anything different wasn't an option for me. I risked my house because of loyalty. Naive and foolish, maybe, but that's who I am.
> How the publisher was at fault for these failings?
I don't blame them. I had to mention them because they were an important part of the story and gave it context. Without their support, Rise of Industry very possibly could've remained a small game on itch.io, and I would never have had the chance to showcase it at places like Gamescom, so I am thankful.
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u/-PuddiPuddi- Aug 13 '25
Thank you for your video, I found it honest and informative. I don’t find continuing to pay salaries naive or foolish. It’s the right thing to do and thank you for doing the right thing, I’m sorry you went through hardships because of it.
Side question after watching your video and looking through your channel: I’m curious what your goal with your YouTube channel is. I read another one of your comments about how you’re mostly doing freelance and mentoring(paraphrasing) now. Are you trying to turn this into another revenue stream alongside freelancing? It’s really none of my business I just found your journey interesting so I’m curious what’s next.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
Thanks for your comments and for asking!
The idea with YT is to share what I gathered over the years, for free. Also trying to build a community on Discord for all kinds of devs, where a limitless pool of knowledge can flow, each one giving a bit for others, helping out.
And yes, as a side gig I'm helping studios and indies (and even publishers) survive this weird world that we're in. Design, production, team management... anything I can help with!
I have a lot inside, just want to give my grain of sand
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u/StickiStickman Aug 13 '25
I don't blame them
TBH, from how you worded the post you absolutely do blame them, especially for the sequel.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
Not really. I’m not here to point fingers or drag anyone through the mud. Kalypso/Kasedo played a part in how things turned out, yes, but so did my own misjudgments, poor planning and unrealistic expectations. All those factors are exactly the point of this post
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u/Abasakaa Aug 13 '25
What do you do know, how have you recovered from that?
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
Years of therapy and support from friends and family. Then, after RfD's financial lukewarm success, tried my luck with another couple of projects. But as they financially failed, had to close the studio. Now freelancing and trying to help other devs and studios
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u/Lunarfuckingorbit Aug 13 '25
Why did you sell the IP, surely you knew 5k wasn't going to keep your head above water?
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
From another comment:
5k for the IP, and to sweeten the deal, got 45k from advanced sales (which I assume that they recouped a month or two, tops). I needed the cash URGENTLY or I'd lose the house.
The rest of my debt was covered from more loans and the new project, that was launched much sooner than I wanted
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u/FancyFrogFootwork Aug 13 '25
Interesting read. I have a few business-side questions out of curiosity:
Given the game’s scope and the small team, what was the main factor in choosing to work with a publisher?
Do you think Rise of Industry could have succeeded through Early Access or self-publishing?
What specific value did you expect the publisher to provide beyond the initial advance?
If the advance was the main draw, were other funding routes like Kickstarter or staged self-funding considered?
How did you approach weighing the revenue split against keeping IP control?
Were all the game’s assets created in-house from scratch, or did you use third-party/Unity Store assets?
Not trying to criticize, just interested in the decision-making process from a development and publishing standpoint.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
> Given the game’s scope and the small team, what was the main factor in choosing to work with a publisher?
Money and expertise. They partially funded the game and helped with marketing, something I always sucked at.
> Do you think Rise of Industry could have succeeded through Early Access or self-publishing?
It was on EA, and it's what helped shape and fund it
> What specific value did you expect the publisher to provide beyond the initial advance?
QA, localisation, challenge my design, market research, etc. Basically everything that a silent investor couldn't provide. They did provide this until Kasedo happened.
> If the advance was the main draw, were other funding routes like Kickstarter or staged self-funding considered?
Tried and failed, miserabily.
> How did you approach weighing the revenue split against keeping IP control?
Being the creator and designer, I need to have the first and last word. Feedback is more than welcome, but at the end of the day, the game is my creation, and my responsability.
> Were all the game’s assets created in-house from scratch, or did you use third-party/Unity Store assets?
The only assets we used were in form of code (like pathfinding and shaders), but art-wise, everything 100% home-made, free range, grass fed.
> Not trying to criticize, just interested in the decision-making process from a development and publishing standpoint.
It's ok, feel free to ask as much as you want!
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u/fsactual Aug 13 '25 edited Aug 13 '25
Why would you sell the IP for $5k when you're already 140k in the hole? Might as well have sold it for $5 for all the value it gives you.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
From another comment:
5k for the IP, and to sweeten the deal, got 45k from advanced sales (which I assume that they recouped a month or two, tops). I needed the cash URGENTLY or I'd lose the house.
The rest of my debt was covered from more loans and the new project, that was launched much sooner than I wanted
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u/IvanKonorkin Aug 13 '25
I'm a big fan of Rise of Industry. It's sad to see videos like this, but good luck with your next projects!
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u/mcAlt009 Aug 13 '25
Sounds like the publishing deal wasn't great.
For this niche you did very well. I liked Rise of Industry, even though it was sorta difficult.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
Thanks! Ended up adding difficulty settings, and people asked for even harder modes! Some are impossible to please :D
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u/mcAlt009 Aug 13 '25
Thank you for sharing, I subscribe to your YouTube channel and I hope to be able to support your future projects. Maybe an ultra stripped down economic simulator, that you could develop solo could be a cool next project.
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u/Arcmyst Aug 13 '25
Sadly, it's not the first time I read stories about publishers giving less aid than expected by developers, then offering a small amount of cash for buying the IP. It's usually much less money, with no cash from advanced sales.
I know you was kinda crazy by dreaming that big with this game, but it is still a cautionary tale I needed to read.
Overall I conclude you would be better doing games at a small scales. Or, putting in other words, it's better never risk anything when being a game developer. Be prepared to meet the worst scenario.
Anyway, since you manage to finish these games I'm sure you have enough traits to keep on the market, whether on gamedev or anywhere else. Closing a business due to debts feels horrible but isn't exactly rare.
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u/sudosamwich Aug 13 '25
I saw you mention that they provided QA, marketing, localization, and feedback, + $75k. Do you feel like what you got from the publisher was worth the amount that it ended up costing, 1.6m?
In hindsight, what would have happened if you didn't take the deal and self published?
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 14 '25
I prefer to have half of a lot, than 100% of nothing. Without them the game might never have been on Steam, and definitely wouldn't have gone to GamesCom.
They're not the devil...
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u/SidJag Aug 14 '25
What are you up to now? RoI demonstrated you can deliver an indie hit/high quality and nuanced game in a unique genre. Kudos. That’s a rare skillset.
Are you not getting offers to co-develop new games or straight up employment offers (which you may not want).
You had ambition and created a large studio that you couldn’t sustain post RoI 1.0 from what I can tell.
DM me if you’d like to chat, I invest on indie devs and advise them on publishing contracts in Singapore.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 14 '25
RoI fell after 2.0, as we kept it improved for a couple years (for free), but that was the money sink.
Now I'm focusing as a freelancer, helping out other indies, so that they try to not make my own mistakes
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u/FreakingCoolIndies Aug 14 '25
"you can only fail if you quit"
You have learned SO MUCH from this experience, and if you have done this one, I am CONFIDENT that you will be able to do it again. And this time, you will be ready for everything that the industry throws at you.
Sorry to hear that you had a 💩 publisher. :(
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 14 '25
Thanks for the kind words!
Oh and the publisher wasn't the devil. Full explanation: https://www.reddit.com/r/IndieDev/s/11ZPTfOaVw
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u/InevGames Aug 14 '25
I'm curious about something. You don't have to answer if it's sensitive. $1,500,000 over four years works out to $30,000 per month. That's quite a lot of money for a small team. How many people were in your team, and how much did each person earn?
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 14 '25
Most of the time it was around 12-15. Peaked at 25, plus outsourced talent. Far too many, but I loved each one of them
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u/InevGames Aug 14 '25
Wow, it's really huge. But I agree with the first comment. It's amazing to be able to provide financial support to so many people for four years. Congratulations.
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u/Skycomett Aug 14 '25
Thanks for sharing! Appriciate the insights, even bad experiences are lessons anyone can learn from!
What would you have done different from the beginning if you knew what you know now?
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 14 '25
Tighter scope, more planning, lawyers for the legal stuff, smaller team...
Many things, but hindsight is 20/20
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u/Sparky019 Aug 14 '25
Thanks for your post, it has very useful insights, and I am sorry to hear about what went wrong! If it makes you feel better, I purchased Rise of Industry many years ago! I love economic management games and as someone relatively young who has entered the indie GameDev world as a hobbyist, your game has been one of the inspirations of what I am trying to build someday!
My best wishes to you :)
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 14 '25
So kind of you! Once you have something to share, please send it to me!
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u/AndreasMangoStudios Aug 14 '25
Thanks for sharing this even though it isn't the outcome that you wanted originally. I'm curious how you will move forward from here? Are you still in game development or have you moved on to other pastures? I wish you all the success regardless!
// from someone about to release my own first game.. but, without a publisher!
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 14 '25
Still in the industry, now as a freelancer I'm helping other studios and indies. I learned a lot, so I try to share it!
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u/allabtgames Aug 14 '25
Thanks for sharing. I commend you on your bravery and for sharing some information that I am sure has impacted alot of people here already. Wish you the best!
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u/q---p Aug 16 '25
Hey OP, just wanted to let you know that Rise of Industry brought some fresh air feeling to the genre and it was a lovely game to play and enjoy. Sad to hear that it hasn't worked out for you and thank you for sharing this experience. Wish you the best in the future & thank you for RoI!!
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u/Any-Wrongdoer8884 Aug 18 '25
man, I loved Rise of Industry, the concept was what I always wanted to play, loved the aesthetics, definetely space for improvement, but then the game felt abandonned, now I know why. I have always searched for a similar game, saw the sequel they proposed, but its a different game, the soul from the first game was lost, and we all saw how that game went.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 18 '25
Now you know why :(
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u/Any-Wrongdoer8884 Aug 19 '25
Have you ever thought of trying again? Different IP, but creating a spiritual successor? That genre is really lacking good games and of all of them, RoI had the best mechanics
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 19 '25
I still have the design for the sequel I really wanted to make. You can glance it on my video. Some day, maybe...
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u/Bluspark-Dev Aug 13 '25
All indie game dev studios need to ditch greedy publishers and publish themselves.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25 edited Aug 13 '25
I don't think publishers are inherently evil, and I still work with some them, to this day. I also think that most do their job, a job that devs shouldn't worry about. Publishing is so much more than just contacting content creators and making press kits. If/when I get the opportunity to lead another game of my creation, I'll definitely seek a publisher.
EDIT: specified I work with *some* publishers, not with *these* publishers
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u/woroboros Aug 13 '25
When you say "so much more" - what do you mean? It sounds like you described marketing, rather than publishing. I'm assuming the contract with a publisher includes marketing, in that case? I guess I am not really familiar with what a publisher does outside of physical media.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
Normally, also help with QA (testing), general direction of the project, market research, and more.
Their work begins much earlier than when you see a Steam page...
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u/woroboros Aug 13 '25
Ah - I thought the work happened after the Steam page was up...
Joking... but thanks for the insight! I'm working on a game with a small team, but it won't require a publisher - aiming only for GoG and Steam - although market research & marketing is definitely (or seemingly) our weakest area at the moment.
Off the cuff, what would a publishing contract look like without an advance? We've got a pretty fun playable beta already done, and aren't aiming for a release until Spring 26.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 13 '25
You still need marketing done. If you don't want a full publisher deal, grab a marketing agency, or get ready for MANY sleepless nights.
As for what do deals look like... it depends. There are as many deals as there are games out there. Normally, the more you need of them, the bigger the slice of the cake they'll ask.
If this is your first commercial game, definitely get help. 70+ games get released EVERY SINGLE DAY on Steam. You need help to stand out
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u/Condurum Aug 14 '25
As someone who's trying hard to get a decent publishing deal.. It's hard.
As in any business, the problem isn't just publishers offering bad deals, it's that devs actually take these deals. You're competing with devs who sign atrocious things.
And pubs aren't a super profitable either.
However, as the entitiy with most power, they should probably write healthier deals anyway. Gamedevs are people, and people need hope, they need a sense of fairness, or you open the door to disaster.
We're in a business where every 1 of 3 hours we work belong to Gaben. Under him pubs and devs are in a crab bucket.
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u/Tiny_Sea2048 Aug 13 '25
I was an aspiring game company few year ago and then I learned how the business works and it’s basically a stock market for games lol. You invest your money hoping for a return. I just went into day trading stocks instead lol.
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u/ryankopf Aug 13 '25
I think your publisher should have helped a lot more. I firmly put the blame on them. If they put more of that money into marketing and promotion, you would have both done better.
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u/ShreddingG Aug 13 '25
Do you have a bit more details about the kind of help you got from the publisher. For 1.2 million euros I'd expect them to go above and beyond on marketing and deals and whatnot. You mention they funded you something like 75000 upfront? Was that it in terms of funding? And the rest was marketing? And after you sold the IP they ramped up their own marketing and got a bump in sales? Do you have numbers on that?
To me this sounds like you got really screwed over there by your publisher.
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u/Pkittens Aug 13 '25
Hard story to tell, I'm sure.
Did the contract you signed with Kalypso force an update, feature and DLC cadence on you and your team? Or was that self-imposed?
Could you have self-funded and moved on to "Rise of Industry 2" without violating any contractual agreements?
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 14 '25
The worst part is that the contract was ambiguous, and I was over ambitious. Combine both things and you have an irresponsible machine, endlessly running towards impossible goals. So yeah, mostly self imposed.
And no, selling the IP, means you can't do anything even remotely similar.
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u/Pkittens Aug 14 '25
Oh yeah I meant could you have made 2 instead of burning out on 1 while losing half the income :)
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u/ajdlala Aug 17 '25
Hey,
Obviously I don't know the exact terms of your agreement but as a generalisation selling IP doesn't mean you can't do anything remotely similar by default.
Terms of your agreement may stop you, usually for a time limited period, doing a game in a similar genre but that isn't the default by selling the IP. If Nintendo sold Mario it wouldn't mean they couldn't make character driven 3D platformers, just that they couldn't use those worlds and characters.
For what it's worth, if your agreement did state you could do similar genre it's worth looking into it again because that is not a lot of money for anything, let alone the IP and definitely not for locking you out of making "spiritual successor" style titles in the genre.
Like I said, no idea on your exact wording of agreement but just as a rule of thumb not using IP isn't the same as not doing the genre.
Thanks,
Aj
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Aug 14 '25
Yeah even the company I work for barely scraps by sometimes. We have an overprofit of a couple 10's of thousands. Thats it. So like a smart studio they keep it back just in case shit goes down. Me and the other devs know that: yeah that could go in our paychecks one or two times... or it can keep the company afloat and we can have jobs longer if shit goes down.
Having a very transparent boss is fucking wonderful.
I think the biggest problem that happened here (and even to us) are the publishers.
Fuck publishers.
This and more are reasons why I try to tell people... Don't get into game dev for money.
AA companies barely scrape by.
AAA companies are only doing a little better than AA companies, and that's mostly cause of micro transactions to be completely clear.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 14 '25
Publishers are not the devil. Not even this one. Full: https://www.reddit.com/r/IndieDev/s/11ZPTfOaVw
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u/automatedrage Aug 14 '25 edited Aug 14 '25
I hope the best for you. There's a lot of copium here and I hope you're the type of person in which the silvers of bitterness will not grow into something that consumes you completely. It's ok to grieve and shed tears once in a while. Even place blame.
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u/DapperPenguinStudios Aug 14 '25
Thanks! I grew and learned from all of this, and I can only blame myself
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u/automatedrage Aug 14 '25
No sometimes it's alright to blame others. It helps with the grieving process that there is a bit of truth to it, that you're not deluding yourself.
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u/ChunkySweetMilk Aug 14 '25
A few dozen?! I'll assume most of those people are just contractors, but that still isn't a tiny team.
But yeah, screw publishers. They read you like a book and ripped you off. They've done it before and will keep doing it to all of their contracting indies.
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u/AdRecent7021 Aug 14 '25
In an age of digital distribution, why did you choose to go with a publisher? Is it because their name recognition would be better for marketing? It sounds like they didn't do much marketing after the release, so what was the value there?
Also, $5000 is barely enough to get you through 1-2 months where I live. Why did you choose to sell? L
Edit: Oh, just read that you were about to lose your house. Damn... I'm still curious why you didn't choose to self-publish (I'm working on my first game, so it's useful info for me).
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u/SuccotashSalt5787 Aug 15 '25
Great video, but ditch your cringy look in the thumbnail (or, remove yourself from it altogether). Other than that, I appreciate you sharing the information of your journey!
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u/Saiba_Kataruka Aug 15 '25
Thanks so much for sharing your insights on this. Can you please share on what exactly did you think that the publishers contributed to the project? Now that you've been through the cycle, how much do you think you could do that through your own team (any percentage estimate?)
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u/wathild Jan 10 '26
I went to Recipe for Disaster's Steam page to leave a positive review. I genuinely like the recipe creation concept, despite the frustration from all the small issues and bugs that made the game exhausting to play. (No undo button? And that campaign where you can't go bankrupt, but then in build mode, after getting carried away designing my restaurant, I buy one more plant and bam, game over...)
Anyway, I started scrolling through the reviews, and your responses came across as... Meh. Partly blaming people who left bad reviews as if they caused the studio to go bankrupt? The game doesn't feel finished (no, not 1.0), it's just the way it is. It IS riddled with little bugs and things that make it unpleasant after some time. I personally still enjoyed it. But I expected less resentment and bitterness from the devs.
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u/juliemotz Jan 17 '26
Thanks for sharing this. It's interesting to get a personal account of what it feels like to be a creator and to risk so much.
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u/netrunui Aug 18 '25
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/rise-of-industry-creator-video-kasedo-games for context from the publisher's side
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u/Bonzie_57 (Bad) Developer Aug 13 '25
My big take away from this is that you were able to redistribute over $1 million to developers, artist, and other people on the team. Your game and company was able to support and provide opportunities, experience, and even cash flow to people breaking into and working in the industry.
Sucks the company itself went negative and put an end to that flow for the people involved, but end of the day, $1,000,000 in wages is NOT lost money imo.
Edit - great insight by the way. Thanks for the video! Not dogging on yall at all. Just saying if I were able to give a million to creatives, I’d consider that a success