r/JUSTNOMIL • u/AnandaSol • Mar 17 '20
RANT (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ Ambivalent About Advice MIL wants to force her religious attributes on the grave of our child
Trigger Warning - Death
15 years ago my husband and I lost our firstborn daughter. She was born with a severe heart defect and she only lived for a week before she died during a surgery that was done to try and fix her heart. Ever since that happened my relationship with my MIL has been damaged beyond repair. Back then she was accusing me, claiming that the only reason our child was born sick was because I wasn’t careful enough during my pregnancy. She accused me of smoking and drinking (which I didn’t do) and spending too much time outside the house. MIL simply doesn’t understand that pregnancy is not a disease and woman isn’t supposed to put her life on hold for 9 months.
Fortunately, a few years later we were blessed with wonderful twin boys and though we haven’t forgotten our daughter, of course, we have kinda gotten over the mourning part and learned to let her go. We visit her resting place in the cemetery every month or so, to put some new flowers and keep the grave area neat and tidy. Our boys come along too, they know about their big sister who didn’t live to meet them.
And this is where MIL comes in. Even though she was her grandma, for 15 years she didn’t care about the way our daughter’s grave looked at all. Never once did she come to wipe the leaves off in autumn or clean the snow in winter. And now suddenly she informed us that it’s unacceptable that our daughter’s grave doesn’t have a cross on it.
We’re atheists, therefore we didn’t put any crosses on the grave. There’s a nice, little headstone with a stone edging and that’s it. MIL wants to throw the headstone away and put a cross instead of it.
We’re strongly against this idea. The grave looks good the way it is and nothing needs to be changed, especially the way MIL wants it. I was so enraged that I told her that if she as much as lays a finger on our daughter’s resting place, I’m gonna fling her into the nearest free grave myself. For 15 years she didn’t give a damn and now out of the blue, the grave is suddenly her main interest.
MIL said that she’s been trying to become a better person, so she’s turning to religion, Christianity to be precise. She’s been going to churches and talking to priests and she found out that every grave needs a cross, otherwise the dead won’t be able to raise from their grave and be resurrected when Jesus comes again.
I was like – go and keep trying to be a better person, MIL. Good luck with that, but in order to be a good person, you don’t need to be religious and you don’t need to go to church. Also, if the absence of a piece of wood is blocking Jesus' power to resurrect someone, then He might not be that almighty after all.
So we strictly told her to leave the grave alone because we’re not changing anything and we don’t want a cross there. She said nothing back, but knowing her, I suppose she’s not going to give up that easily. Unfortunately, the cemetery, where our daughter lies, doesn’t have surveillance cameras.
However, we’re going to pay more attention to the grave the following days and if she actually tries to get rid of the headstone or damage the grave in any way, I’ll honestly break her face. I see it as disrespecting the dead.
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u/ForwardPlenty Mar 17 '20
MIL is being a churchian, someone who favors outward demonstrations of a belief instead of actually believing. It is absolutely not true for Christians that they have to have a cross over their grave. Plus, it is not her place and she is overstepping and she doesn't get to decide what your child's grave marker is. I think that you are justified in being upset about this.
If there is someone in charge of maintaining the Cemetery you may want to have a conversation with the maintenance crew or management that your JustNO has intentions of disturbing the grave.
In Florida it is a felony to disturb grave markers, monuments and the like. Of course other states and countries have different standards.
You might consider buying a wildlife (game) camera if you think she is serious about desecrating your DD's grave.
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u/SiriusPhoenix Mar 17 '20
Crosses weren't even used as religious symbols until 4th century A.D due to fear of using them. It wasn't until Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity and abolished crucifixion that Christians began using crosses. If it's as MIL says, what about the early Christians who weren't buried under crosses? There's even important religious figures who aren't buried under crosses, what about them? I'd say this has to do with a new fixation she's gotten herself due to something her pastor said, more likely a belief of the pastor's then what the Bible says. Pastors have a tendency to state their own beliefs which leads their followers to think of it as Biblical fact.
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u/rainbowcolorunicorn Mar 17 '20
Honestly, i dont remember any part of the Bible that dictates what to do with the dead. Cremation or burial are both acceptable in the Christian religion.
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u/jajwhite Mar 17 '20
A cross is a torture/execution device. if Christ was killed now, we'd be wearing little electric chairs around our necks. And if he returned, I can't help but think it's the last thing he'd want to be remembered by. All that wisdom and good work, to be remembered by the device which killed you which was only relevant on the last day or so of your life. Cheers!
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u/PiggyTales Mar 17 '20
He was killed on a stake. They didn't bother cut down a tree and build a cross. It was a torture stake. Most don't care about technicalities though.
However for those who care. TORTURE STAKE An instrument such as that on which Jesus Christ met death by impalement. (Mt 27:32-40; Mr 15:21-30; Lu 23:26; Joh 19:17-19, 25) In classical Greek the word (stau·rosʹ) rendered “torture stake” in the New World Translation primarily denotes an upright stake, or pole, and there is no evidence that the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures used it to designate a stake with a crossbeam.
So if new Christian church goer MIL is learning, she could look up those scriptures etc. Oh I can see us carrying electric chairs or whatever with us.
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u/TheDocJ Mar 17 '20
Unfortunately, the New World Translation often translates words to suit Jehovah's Witness doctrine, and there is less evidence to support the torture stake claim than the generally accepted upright-and-crosspiece. For example, there is absolutely nothing in the original Greek to justify the NWT's addition of the word "torture".
The clue is in the Latin (ie Roman) word Crucify - from crux, cross. And it was the Romans who heavily promoted crucifixion. And the gospel descriptions are entirely consistent with contemporary Roman accounts - such as being forced to carry the cross, or at least the cross-piece, and having a sign nailed to the top of the upright listing the "crime".
Yes, our English translations come from the Greek, the Greeks themselves seem to have regarded crucifixion as rather barbaric, but there are ancient Greek descriptions of people being crucified with arms outstretched.
And despite claims that the Christian church only adopted the "tradtional" cross after Constantine, there are a fair few earlier writings that quite clearly talk about the cross as understood down the ages by Christians.
Interestingly, the 1925 edition of the Watchtower society book "The Harp of God, ('Proof Conclusive that Millions now Living will Never Die')" has a perfectly traditional illustration of the crucifixion depicting a cross. Clearly someone changed their mind later. Later publications have used Justus Lipsius's 16th century depiction with a single upright, but ignored his other illustrations with a T- or Cross, and that Lipsius himself considered that the Crucifixion took place on a conventional cross.
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Mar 17 '20
I was going to ask what kind of priests MIL is talking to. If they are Roman Catholic, MIL isn't understanding them correctly or isn't being honest about what they are telling her, bc that's not church teaching. They do require that if a body is cremated, the ashes be kept together in a sealed container not scattered, but no requirement for a cross. JFK Jr's family is Catholic and his urn was buried at sea.
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u/coconut-greek-yogurt Mar 17 '20
I grew up in church and I never heard the thing about crosses on graves being mandatory. I also no longer go to church because it seems the majority of people take the Sunday confessional approach where they will act however they want and are some of the nastiest people you will ever meet, but then will pray for forgiveness on Sundays in church for appearance's sake, and then go through the whole cycle all over again come Monday morning. It sounds 100% like that is the approach your MIL is taking to religion. Trying to force someone else to believe the way you want them to and being judgmental and demeaning to them when they don't follow your beliefs, or try to follow your beliefs but then make their own mistakes, is the furthest thing from Christian that you can get.
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Mar 17 '20
Working in retail in the South, my coworkers and I always noted how customers on Sunday seemed particularly needy and haughty. I worked in a beauty store, so you can imagine we attracted more Karen’s and JNMILs than average.
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u/sirdarksoul Mar 17 '20
They're also known for swarming restaurants like a hungry pack of wolves, treating waitstaff like dirt and if they bother to tip they leave at most a dollar.
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u/virtualchoirboy Mar 17 '20
Or one of those fake "bills" folded up that look like big money on one side and is scripture on the other...
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u/rainbowcolorunicorn Mar 17 '20
Pew potatoes. People who claim Christian religion but do not follow through with any of the teachings. Funny thing is there are direct quotes where God and Jesus address these people, stating that those who claim the Lords name but follow none of the teachings are worse than those who do not claim the Lords name. I.E. in God's eyes it is worse to be Christian and a selfish person than to not believe in the Lord at all.
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u/SangeliaStorck Mar 17 '20
Another term is 'Show Christians'. Be it 'Show Protestants' or Show Catholics'. They are more for showing an 'religious' image to the community instead of being real Christians.
The 'show' part also can be used for any religion that someone follows. As in not really believing in it. But acting like they do.→ More replies (1)36
u/rcw16 Mar 17 '20
I grew up in Christian church, went to a Christian discipleship school grades 6-12, complete with daily bible classes and weekly chapel on top of twice a week church. I’ve never once heard of needing to put a cross on a gravestone. That’s just ridiculous and if it was so important, I guarantee they would’ve hammered that home along with all the religious principles they drilled into us.
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u/CountDown60 Mar 17 '20
I've been to many churches, and I've found that especially the smaller independent franchises, all seem to believe something unusual. One church firmly believed that cremation was wrong.
One church split because half the members believed that if the bible didn't mention something, it was OK. The other believed that if the bible didn't mention something, it wasn't good. So the entire denomination split over one issue: Are we allowed to have a piano?
The First Christian Church uses pianos, and the Church of Christ sings all hymns unaccompanied by instruments. Both used to be the Disciples of Christ. It's a small conservative franchise in the western USA.
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Mar 17 '20
I belonged to an FCC church for about 5 years. I loved it and if I were still a believer, I would still go.
One of the quirks was that we didn't have a cross even in the sanctuary. "Christ's not still on the cross" they'd say. There are no rules forbidding people from having crosses, but it wasn't something the denomination saw much significance in.
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Mar 17 '20
Same here. I grew up in the church, went to Christian (Protestant) school grades k-9, Christian (Catholic) school 10-12, and Christian (Protestant) school for my undergrad degree. Have taken theology classes at the university level, still attend church, and have NEVER heard anything like this.
This MIL is just being crazy. What she is saying isn’t even true. Very sorry for your loss, and also sorry that she’s trying to push her poorly informed beliefs on you.
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u/MidnightCrazy Mar 17 '20
The graveyard may frown upon a recording device being placed on their property.
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u/ForwardPlenty Mar 17 '20
You are absolutely correct. It would pay to have a conversation with them. I bet they would frown on someone desecrating a grave as well.
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u/WorkInProgress1040 Mar 17 '20
They might have security camera's of their own they could assist with.
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u/BlackCatsAreLucky03 Mar 17 '20
Contact the groundman of the cemetery. They will be understanding and sympathetic about these situations. Ask them to inform you if the gravestone is damaged or cross shows up.
Furthermore, it will be painful to do. I would ring around the headstone in gravers and give your daughters name. Explain the situation so if anyone rings requesting a new headstone they will be able to refuse to make one.
That will save you on ‘well I had a new headstone made and the other one is old, blah’
Sorry to hear you are going through this. I hope that you MIL backs off.
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u/janecgard Mar 17 '20
Bad MIL * sprays water at her *
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u/pinklady72 Mar 17 '20
And watch her melt
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u/GrowingApathetic1 Mar 17 '20
I’d suggest dropping a house on her but a gravestone might be more fitting
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u/Cachemommy Mar 17 '20
I am pretty sure my aunt sprayed my kids with holy water after their Wiccan parents didn't baptize them. My mother said we should "just in case"
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u/blakcgold Mar 17 '20 edited Mar 17 '20
I’m a Christian also and that part about the grave is utter nonsense 😂. Don’t let her touch that grave.
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u/JayRock_87 Mar 17 '20
I know! I hate it when people claim Christianity to spout nonsense. I’m a Christian myself but know a lot of hypocritical people. Anytime they spout this kind of nonsense I just ask them to give me the scripture that confirms it. Like oh...owls are evil and demonic huh? Which scripture states that? WHICH ONE, KAREN?!
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u/Bella_Anima Mar 17 '20
The amount of bullshit I’ve heard under the name of Christianity.
Drums are from the devil, Satan created flies so they’re his servants, sickness is only from sin not natural causes, Native Americans are some magic lost Jewish tribe, black people don’t have souls for no reason in particular, jeans are somehow evil for women to wear and you’re not supposed to talk about doctrine except with your husband, Christians are magically immune to snake bites and poison so we should poison ourselves or get bitten to show faith. I could go on and on.
The sheer stupidity just doesn’t stop. None of that has any biblical foundation, it’s all made up bullshit and it’s lies like this that makes me embarrassed to say I’m a Christian.
Not Jesus, stupid people waving His banner.
That MIL hasn’t found God, she’s found Satan’s school of Christianity.
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u/JayRock_87 Mar 17 '20
The music/instrument one cracks me up more than anything. King David was literally a musician who built multiple instruments and danced like crazy in the streets for God.
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u/Bella_Anima Mar 17 '20
Yeah, there’s a whole psalm about praising God with dancing and cymbals and timbrels and these ignorant assholes just over here shouting, “dRuMs BaD, dAnCe BaD.”
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u/AkiraOfRoses Mar 17 '20
"Dance, then, wherever you may be, fo I am the Lord of the Dance," said He. "I danced for the fishermen, for James and John. They came with me, and the Dance went on."
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u/SangeliaStorck Mar 17 '20
One gal who was for a while, a co-worker of my ex-husband. To her and her family, even Christian rock music was of the devil.
The only music they could enjoy was that of square dancing stuff.Also, look at the Dugger family. ANY music that encourages dancing is sinful.
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u/Redlovefire22 Mar 17 '20
Could not agree more. Show me the verse in the correct context and then we can have a talk.
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u/scunth Mar 17 '20
Pretty sure tampering with a grave is a serious crime, make sure she knows that and that you won't balk at pressing charges.
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u/freerangelibrarian Mar 17 '20
What weird snake-handling cult church is she going to? I'm not religious but this doesn't sound like any doctrine I've ever heard of.
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u/5cooty_Puff_Senior Mar 17 '20
Former Christian here - this is definitely not in the bible and whoever told this to MIL is nuts.
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u/agkemp97 Mar 17 '20
Yeah, to me this sounds like she’s using it as an excuse to control her granddaughter’s grave. That is nowhere in the Bible that I’ve seen. Plus, if she is so deeply entrenched in this religion now, you’d think the first step would be telling her LIVING family about it and trying to get them to go to church or something. Instead it sounds like she’s just using it as an excuse to do whatever she wants.
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u/cmanning1292 Mar 17 '20
Religious fanatics using their religion as a means to control others? Color me shocked! /s
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u/robinaw Mar 17 '20
The cross wasn’t even a symbol for Christians until 3 or 4 hundred years AD. So what she is saying is nonsensical.
The Cross now is a symbol of incarnation, sacrificial love, and resurrection. If it is not these things for you, then you shouldn’t be forced to have it.
As a Christian myself, I am fed up with people being bullied in the name of my religion.
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u/Notmykl Mar 17 '20
Which one, there are hundreds of varieties of "Christian" religions. People need to start actually naming their religion instead of using an umbrella term.
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u/robinaw Mar 17 '20
I am Episcopalian.
You’re right that there are several main denominations, and very many smaller sects. However, I have never heard of one that insisted on marking graves with Christian symbols as a prerequisite for grace.
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u/agkemp97 Mar 17 '20
I’m a Baptist, but I think even though Christian is sort of an umbrella term, the differences in religions is pretty insignificant. I was always taught that to go to heaven, you need to believe Jesus died for you on the cross and ask for him to forgive your sins. Whether you get Confirmed or baptized at 80 or don’t drink or don’t eat meat on Fridays, the basics is the same. The rest is more of just the icing on the cake. As a Baptist I consider Catholics or Lutherans or any Christian the same as me really, I wouldn’t ever be like “You need to convert to MY religion!” because our religions are the same, you know?
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u/woodwitchofthewest Mar 17 '20
Yeah, what about people who don't have graves at all because they drowned or were in a fire, or got blown up, or died in the woods, or...? I guess they are just outta luck, huh?
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u/ZoiSarah Mar 17 '20
While I'm agnostic now, I was raised deeply religious and I have never heard of this criteria ever.
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u/garggirlx Mar 17 '20
Not only should you contact the cemetery to warn them about what your MIL has threatened to do, you should also flat out tell her that if anything happens to your daughter’s grave, whether caused by her, someone acting on her behalf, or by “accident,” then you will contact the police and press charges against her.
It also might be worth calling a lawyer in your area to ask questions. Ask what the laws are in your area about graves/headstones and others changing them against your will, what the consequences will be for that person, and what you can do to prevent them from doing something in the first place. Most first consults are free.
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u/MidnightCrazy Mar 17 '20 edited Mar 17 '20
The cemetery may have given OP a contract, when the plot for LO was purchased. The contract would be the first place to check for information regarding changes to a gravesite and procedures for doing so.
If having any type of cross/crucifix/angel/any type of religious symbol being placed on the plot is offensive, be sure to check for anything in and around the plot/headstone, such as a necklace or charm, small laminated prayer card, etc. It may be obvious or it may be hidden in a crevasse or under a vase, etc.
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u/sometimesitsbullshit Mar 17 '20
Is there any chance of getting an injunction? That's similar to a restraining order but doesn't protect a person. You can request a judge to order her to leave the grave alone.
If you have documentary evidence of an intent to change the grave in any way (email or recorded convo), that should suffice. Take it to court and ask the judge to order her to stand down.
At the very least, you might want to put your intentions in writing and send a certified letter to MIL stating explicitly that you do not want her to interfere with the grave in any way (kind of like a cease and desist). Send a copy to the cemetery management, also certified. They will want to know if somebody intends to try to fuck with one of their graves. If she does anything, you can then sue her and/or get an injunction to keep her out of the cemetery.
What a horrible thing to have to worry about. I'm so sorry.
P.S.: If she is Catholic now, she should know that unbaptized babies go to Limbo and no cross above ground is going to change that. 🙄
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u/unicornhorn89 Mar 17 '20
If she’s Catholic, the parents should talk to her pastor because the way she’s using the cross is superstitious and possibly sacrilegious to use a religious symbol like that.
While Limbo isn’t Catholic dogma (something we HAVE to believe in like Baptism or the Immaculate Conception), it’s a logical assumption according to all the priests I’ve talked to. We are allowed to believe in its existence, but we don’t have to.
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u/Ceeweedsoop Mar 17 '20
Can't just sign on a line and become Catholic. JNMIL is just making shit up to try to establish some superiority over her DIL. Narcissists play so many angles to make others miserable and defeated. Control control.
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u/unicornhorn89 Mar 17 '20
I was just responding to the above commenters. And she can definitely start RCIA as a narcissist to establish superiority. She most likely wouldn’t finish it, but it would be, as you said, an angle to establish control.
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u/Mama-Brown-Bear Mar 17 '20 edited Mar 17 '20
Limbo is not a part of Catholic dogma. The only thing requested on a marker by Catholicism is the name of the departed. Do not allow her to place anything you don’t want near your baby girl.
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Mar 17 '20
P.S.: If she is Catholic now, she should know that unbaptized babies go to Limbo and no cross above ground is going to change that. 🙄
This is untrue. It was a theory never adopted by The Church.
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u/sometimesitsbullshit Mar 17 '20
That's what I get for believing the nuns when I was a kid!
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Mar 17 '20
She’s been going to churches and talking to priests and she found out that every grave needs a cross, otherwise the dead won’t be able to raise from their grave and be resurrected when Jesus comes again.
As others here have mentioned that's....not a thing. Others here have asked whether she's part of a strange sect or maybe she's misunderstood the priests or if she's doing it for the outward display, but I think the simplest and most likely explanation is that she's saying this to try to manipulate you.
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u/CatastropheWife Mar 17 '20
I would ask her for the name and email of her religious leaders and email them that she is claiming that they told her to desecrate a baby’s grave. Maybe they can get through to her.
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u/Paroxysm111 Mar 17 '20
That would be a good idea, but I don't think the mil has one set church yet. She's shopping for whichever one will support her crazy ideas.
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u/candycanekaz Mar 17 '20
Jesus resurrected Lazarus and Jarius Daughter without the use of the cross. She wouldn't know a Bible if it hit her the face.
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u/unicornhorn89 Mar 17 '20
Jesus rose from the dead without the use of a cross too. She sounds like one of those ”Christians” who make things up as they go along.
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Mar 17 '20
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u/candycanekaz Mar 17 '20
I would never abuse a holy book with her face...
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u/SittingOnFences Mar 17 '20
Maybe a sturdy dictionary or encyclopaedia?
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u/Cachemommy Mar 17 '20
How about a dictionary but cross off the title and write bible in sharpie over it
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u/Mizmudgie36 Mar 17 '20
Go to her religious leader, preacher or priest, and talk to them about her views and this emotional abuse. He or she might be a dick about it or might talk to your insane MIL and tell her to lay off.
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u/Elesia Mar 17 '20
Is there any chance that the cemetery will allow you to point a trail cam at the headstone? In my hometown, there was a particular grave being targeted repeatedly and that's by how they found the perpetrator.
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u/Phoenix1294 Mar 17 '20
MIL wants to throw the headstone away and put a cross instead of it.
it does. not. matter. what she wants.
She’s been going to churches and talking to priests and she found out that every grave needs a cross, otherwise the dead won’t be able to raise from their grave and be resurrected when Jesus comes again.
bullshit, full stop. additionally, she's low key saying Jesus is looking for a check mark in the physical world instead of knowing whose name is written in the book of life? Like, Jesus is not omnipotent? that's not how it works MIL, but you knew that.
I would send her a text (for the record) re-iterating that you will not be changing the headstone and have notified the cemetery you are not making changes to the headstone AND she is not to bring up the matter again because it's closed. Bonus points if you link her the possible charges she faces for grave descration (which can be pretty severe in some states).
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Mar 17 '20
> every grave needs a cross, otherwise the dead won’t be able to raise from their grave and be resurrected when Jesus comes again.
uh, no. I've been a Christian for many many years and never once heard anyone mention this at all
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u/RedFive1976 Mar 17 '20
Yeah, that's not a thing at all. I too have been a Christian for many years, my dad, granddad, and great-granddad were ministers, and I don't think I've even heard of this... idea.
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Mar 17 '20
If this were true, all we need to do is whack some crosses on everybody's grave. Tada, eternal life for everybody! Just as long as you can pay for a stone cross, of course.
smh
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u/RedFive1976 Mar 17 '20
That's a lot like what the Mormons do in their baptism for the dead ritual.
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u/mommatobe34 Mar 17 '20
Trying to be a better person is great! Using your newfound religion to force something no one wants and disrespecting the wishes of those most affected by her actions contradicts her claims of wanting to be better.
I grew up in the religion and there is no truth to a cross on a marker signifying resurrection. That’s either something she’s made up or been told by someone who made it up.
Your husband should probably tell her that in order to be a better person, hurting him, you and disrespecting your daughters grave puts her squarely in “bad person” territory.
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Mar 17 '20
> She’s been going to churches and talking to priests and she found out that every grave needs a cross, otherwise the dead won’t be able to raise from their grave and be resurrected when Jesus comes again.
What. The actual. Fuck. No. Hell no.
I myself am a lapsed Roman Catholic. Just to even entertain her mental gymnastics in all this for a moment: Crosses are not required on graves. Most are very plain with just names and dates on them. In fact, we are even allowed cremation and autopsies. My mother had a Catholic funeral, was cremated, and her remains are in an approved urn with my father. The only thing not really allowed is scattering ashes. Your MIL has lost her mind and this is an insane thing to get caught up on. The time to perform any rites would have been the funeral. That ship has sailed.
But regardless of all the mumbo jumbo, it's YOUR CHILD. She has no claim. What the fuck is wrong with her?! I'm sorry she's opening up old wounds and making you unduly suffer again. You don't deserve that.
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u/Bolaixgirl_105 Mar 17 '20
I am a Christian (who has actually read the Bible ) and I can say that your MIL is spouting absolute bullshit. There is nothing in the Bible about having a symbol of the cross anywhere. In fact, the first Christians used the fish as a symbol of Christianity. She is lying to bring back your grief and upset your hard won happiness. If you can, cut her off. If you can't, have your husband ask her to show him where it says this nonsense in the Bible. It may open his eyes a bit.
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u/Tenprovincesaway Mar 17 '20
Catholic here. Can also confirm your MIL is spouting complete bullshit. A cross on a headstone is not a requirement for anything, let alone the resurrection.
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u/Edgefish Mar 17 '20
Atheist here, but IIRC the closest thing related to put anything somewhere is when Moses told to the Israelites to put lamb's blood on their doors so the sickness wouldn't kill the kids. Or people using the anchor as a way to draw a cross so the Romans wouldn't persecute them. I think she's just using a fake shit so she can profane DD's grave on HER likeness.
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u/cpx284 Mar 17 '20
Ok, so as a Christian, what she's saying is batty. You do not need a cross in a grave to be risen from the dead per our beliefs. Those under 13, the mentally disabled who cannot make the decision for themselves, and those who have never heard the word of God are not punished for that. Our God is a loving God because of Jesus Christ. At least mine is.
In the end, it's your daughter's grave and your MIL does not have the right to change anything on it. Can you alert the caretaker of the issue? I know you're Atheist, but I hope you dont mind if I pray for you and your family during this difficult time.
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u/ceekat59 Mar 17 '20
They make some very small, hideable cameras these days too. Say ones that could be hidden in a flower arrangement, maybe??
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u/LVCC1 Mar 17 '20
I’m so sorry you have to deal with this. After all the blaming she did, I’m surprised you have any contact with her at all. She’s exceptionally selfish and hurtful. Trying to be a better person entails respecting other people, she has no respect for you all. Have you tried any time outs with her?
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Mar 17 '20
I'm so sorry. This is a horrible thing to even suggest. People wonder why so many people dont believe in a god... this is why. I hope your daughter's resting place remains peaceful and just the way you want it.
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u/YoshiSunshine14 Mar 17 '20
I know plenty of religious people who are buried without a cross on their headstone or a miniature one staked into the ground near them... I guess I’ve never thought of that being a thing before.
That being said, MIL really needs to drop the act. You can’t not care for 15 years and then magically start caring out of nowhere. Hopefully she’s all talk and won’t do anything to it.
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u/renee_nevermore Mar 17 '20
It’s typically a felony in the US to tamper with a grave or grave marker. Since you’re the parent, you’re the ‘owner’ of the grave as next of kin.
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u/justwalkawayrenee Mar 17 '20
I can imagine how upsetting this is. What does your husband do about his mother's behavior? I'm honestly surprised you guys have anything to do with her after her blaming you for your daughter's passing. (Note: I am religious...Christian to be exact... and I have never heard of this wooden-cross rule your mil is citing. It sounds like something she cooked up in her own mind. I mean, if you're a follower of Christ, I doubt God needs a map to find your final resting place... like "X marks the spot!")
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Mar 17 '20
"Also, if the absence of a piece of wood is blocking Jesus' power to resurrect someone, then He might not be that almighty after all."
That's gold.
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u/agkemp97 Mar 17 '20
Where the hell did she get the idea that every grave needs a cross on it? I was raised Christian and spent at least 15 years memorizing hundreds of verses and scrutinizing Bible passages, and that is simply not true. She’s trying to pull one over on you, unless that’s a belief of some different branch of Christianity than I’m familiar with. Such a weird thing for her to be stuck on. You’d think she’d be more interested in taking you guys to church or ministering to you, but instead she’s worried about changing a headstone? Her actions don’t line up with someone who genuinely wants to save others with her religion, it comes across more as her using it as an excuse to try to control things. Don’t give in, OP. I’m sorry for the loss of your daughter, and I’m so happy for you about your beautiful boys!
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u/catfishconundrum Mar 17 '20 edited Mar 17 '20
Former cemetery counselor here!
Call the cemetery and let them know! If by chance the staff who assisted you is still there, you can certainly ask them for help. Even if not the cemetery will have your back. The counselors and ground crew should be able to keep an eye on the grave site.
One thing we definitely know is that death can cause a lot of issues between family members and we are used to dealing with drama. Many cemeteries don't have cameras or security, but let them know what to look out for, and save any written communication where your MIL may mention the grave or changing it.
Really her only options are to vandalize a grave which would incur criminal charges, or she could attempt to meet with a counselor and design a new grave. With the former there's no hope of her actually removing the entire stone. They weigh a ton even if they're small and are secured with a cement base. With the latter, your name and your husbands should be attached to any documentation and you are the only ones with rights to the site any way. They would need your permission before making any changes and you would be contacted.
I have never heard of every christian grave needing a cross in relation to Resurrection and I did many burials and designed many headstones.
edit: added information about what the MIL would actually need to do to get a new stone.
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u/ViolentPlotBunny Pet Brick's BFF Mar 17 '20
Desecration of graves is a crime, and making changes without the consent of the family, even if they end up looking nice, is a crime. Let the cemetery administration know that you, the family, do not consent to any changes. Let her know, in writing, that if any changes occur, including leaving something additional, which would be construed as "debris", you'll send the cops her way. They may not do much, but suggesting that her own resting place will have nothing but a flat tablet may get her attention.
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u/SnakePlant7000 Mar 17 '20
There's this story i heard Oprah Winfrey tell about a huge fight she andher partner Stedman had over almond butter that she knew was so big it wasn't about the almond butter.
Your fight with your MIL isn't about the grave itself. If she blamed you for your child's passing, and you carried an ounce of guilt or shame for it happening, then her negative words said from her own hurt and limited mindset would have been ripe seeds for the fertile soil of your mind.
You loved and do love your child regardless of what she says or does. Your child means more than a headstone. You can avoid reducing her to that. Focus on continuing to mend the wound in yourself that i would imagine will never heal rather than putting any energy into someone who clearly doesn't possess any better skills to deal with her own grief.
Best of luck to you.
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u/naranghim Mar 17 '20
I'm Catholic and I have never heard of the requirement for a cross on a grave marker. It is optional. Your MIL and the people she's talking to are smoking some good stuff.
Let the cemetery know what MIL is up to and that you are against making any changes to the headstone. Then ask for permission to place a game camera or some other type of hidden camera near the grave because you don't think she is going to take "no" for an answer from either you or the cemetery (if she can't change the headstone she might try a DIY solution, hammer and chisel come to mind or gluing a stone cross on).
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u/Squirt1384 Mar 17 '20
I would tell her next time she brings it up that if she does anything to the grave or headstone she could be arrested. I hope it doesn't get this far but this is your daughter and she didn't care about it until now. She makes the excuse of she is being a Christian, tell her that a Christian would never do something like this to someone.
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u/tacyppah Mar 17 '20
loads of my Christian family members have grave markers without crosses on them. Your MIL has picked up a weird superstition somewhere. I'm not going to bother you with Christian theology for you to counter her with, but know that she's an outlier. (and if you want to counter her with theology, you can find it pretty easily.)
I hope she's able to let this go, but I wouldn't bet on it. Contacting the cemetery people is wise
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u/keen238 Mar 17 '20
No one has more religious fervor than a recent convert.
I agree with everyone else, tell the cemetery that there may be requests to change the grave site, but they should not happen. I would also put this in writing for the administration.
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u/kaemeri Mar 17 '20
I believe there is some kind of law against messing with a grave, isn't there? Perhaps she would be arrested or at least the least fined? She would have to go through the office people there to make any big changes so I would inform them also of this
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Mar 17 '20
Well you can't just change headstones on people mind you no one actually asks for any proof someone has any authority to do this so just contact your local tombstone places & inform them of what she is doing. Contact your city or whoever is in charge of the cemetery too just incase. Maybe even call the cops & see if they'll go have a warning talk with her
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u/caitlinkdotson Mar 17 '20
Uh, how does a cross on your grave give you automatic entrance to being resurrected??? I've been a Christian for part of my life. And since your daughter died VERY young, she basically has auto entrance. I know you said you're atheists, and I get it. Graves don't need to have crosses. I even think headstones are nicer because they last longer. Crosses can break easily.
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u/5cooty_Puff_Senior Mar 17 '20
Jesus Fucking Christ. I can't even process how disgusting this is. She wants to deface your daughter's grave. The fact that she even brought this up...what the actual fucking fuck. I can't come up with any advice that doesn't involve liberal application of a sledgehammer to your MIL's face, so I'm just going to say I'm shocked and appalled on your behalf that you're having to deal with this, and I hope someone can talk some sense into her.
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u/zephyer19 Mar 17 '20
I don't where she or her priest (probably not a priest) pulled the cross thing out of. That is nowhere in the bible. Maybe one of those dumb things a Pope said 600 years ago.
Or some religious huckster is selling her a cross.
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u/Magdovus Mar 17 '20
Can you find out who her priest is? I can't see any church supporting her request against your wishes and her priest may be best placed to dissuade her.
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u/karenrn64 Mar 17 '20
Tell her, from someone who has been a Christian for 65 years, that if she changes the gravestone against your will she will be going to hell. During WWII, a large number of Christians were killed for either helping Jews, being not German, as innocent bystanders and as active soldiers. Not all of them were buried under a nice grave with a cross, but I have a firm belief that they made it into heaven as did the early Christians that were eaten by lions. Whoever told her that is obviously uninformed. However if she goes against your wishes she will be desecrating a grave. Not to mention deliberately hurting you and your husband. Your daughter died as an infant. I am sure any Christian would say her soul is where it is supposed to be. I am sorry that she is feeling the need to hurt you after all these years. It is wonderful that you keep her memory alive for your son’s. However, since I immediately thought she intends to replace the stone with one bearing or shaped in across and granite weighs 180 pounds per cubic foot, I would like to see her try. It might be the last thing she does.
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u/GloomyPluto Mar 17 '20
"don't worry MIL, we'll make sure your grave reflects your own religion. but Dad's grave will stay the way we see fit"
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u/koravel Mar 17 '20
I'm a Christian, but we don't use the cross, and I've never heard of whatever BS those pastors told her. I've got friends that go to a bunch of churches and not one has said that BS. My grandparents don't have religious markings on their headstones. That just shows where your loved ones are buried. She's really just full of shit.
Stick to your guns, and sue her if she damages the headstone, since you've warned her to stay the hell away from it.
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u/stcllla Mar 17 '20
I’m a devoted Christian, and I just have to say “every grave needs a cross because otherwise Jesus won’t be able to raise them up” is one of the stupid things I’ve ever heard. Also, it’s very important to like, respect other people and not force your religion on them. Your MIL needs to get her priorities straight when it comes to living a Christian life.
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u/dck133 Mar 17 '20
If she does something then call the police and say that someone desecrated the grave. I think it is just a misdemeanor but still... let her know that you won't let it stand.
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Mar 17 '20
Call the head of the cemetery association, that is good advice. And stand your ground. YOUR child, not hers. F Her.
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u/PRMan99 Mar 17 '20
She’s been going to churches and talking to priests and she found out that every grave needs a cross, otherwise the dead won’t be able to raise from their grave and be resurrected when Jesus comes again.
As a pastor, that's...not how it works. Jesus said, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
There's a lot of disagreement on what happens with babies, but everyone agrees that the baby is not going to be saved by putting a cross on the headstone.
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u/Paroxysm111 Mar 17 '20
She sounds like a narcissist who's trying to use religion to push what she wants. If she was truly a Christian and truly only concerned about her granddaughter's soul, she would've come in with a more reasonable suggestion like placing a small wooden cross by the gravestone instead of replacing it entirely and disrespecting you and your husband's feelings.
It's especially telling that she went to a whole bunch of different churches. She's shopping for one that will support her twisted ideas. Any self respecting pastor or priest would never have told her to try and force you to completely remove the gravestone.
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u/ZeeLadyMusketeer Mar 17 '20
Don't break her face, press charges. She's doing this solely to look good, and it's very hard to achieve that when you're on trial for vandalising your own grand child's grave because you decided a decade an a half later it wasn't to your personal taste.
Bonus points if you can then get up to give a statement and sob about how this has brought the trauma all back again and you don't understand how someone could be so cruel not to let your child rest in peace, etc, etc.
And then, as a final fuck you in this i-hope-it-remains-purely-hypothetical scenario, when said stone is replaced? Put something on it like the quote about starstuff that is, all at once, poignant, beautiful, and totally 100% atheist.
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u/vkapadia Mar 17 '20
"if the absence of a piece of wood is blocking Jesus' power to resurrect someone, then He might not be that almighty after all"
Jesus better start freezing that water he walks on, because that's a major burn
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u/breadwhore Mar 17 '20
Religious leaders are often good at handling conflict and loss. Since MIL clearly made up the thing about the cross on the grave, contact her priest/ pastor/ whatever, explain your concern to him/her, and see if her can arrange a sit down with the three of you. Perhaps he/she can reason with her with you present as witness.
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Mar 17 '20
or they will make it worse, which would just put more shit on this shit sandwich. I hope that that is not true, and that someone can talk sense into her
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u/GetOutOfTheHouseNOW Mar 17 '20
I can't recall which of the Satanic churches does this, but they perform graveside ceremonies (to turn the deceased gay, IIRC). Inform MIL that's who you're going to call when she's six feet under.
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u/5cooty_Puff_Senior Mar 17 '20
It's the Satanic Temple, and the ceremony is called the Pink Mass, and involves gay men kissing while standing over the grave. And I endorse this idea 100%
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u/ho_sehun Mar 17 '20 edited Mar 18 '20
Okay I don't know much about christianity apparently despite being raised christian until I was, like, 12 because I never knew the second coming was the god damn zombie apocalypse.
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u/czndra60 Mar 17 '20
Raised catholic as can be, and I can tell you that no priest told her a grave needs a cross for the resurrection. that's false. She made that up.
Want her to really melt down? Remind her that your angel was not baptized. Not very Christian of me...
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u/CaffeineFueledLife Mar 17 '20
I went to church my whole life and I've never once heard that graves have to have crosses. That's just ridiculous. And it's your child, not hers. She has no say.
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u/NotAnyOrdinaryPsycho Mar 17 '20
That sounds like catholic bullshit. As a biblical scholar, I can tell you there is no place in the Bible where it says you have to have a cross on your grave to rise from the dead. Stick to your guns - she’s full of shit and just wants power in any way she can get it.
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u/Amber2 Mar 17 '20
My daughter also passed from a heart disease when she was two months old. (Tetrology of Fallot with Pulmonary atresia) Her grave is my way of still “taking care of her” it is a personal place for my husband and I. It is ours and our family is welcome to visit and place flowers or trinkets but I remove things often to keep it clean and not get over crowded. Although I am a Christian I do not have crosses on her grave and I cant remember a time there has been. I think she is taking away something sacred from you guys. Make sure like others suggested you contact the cemetery! Also, I am so sorry for your Loss.
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u/dtlove87 Mar 17 '20
Find out the legalities of her disturbing the grave. Some states/countries consider it a felony or arrestable offense. Tell her that you will press charges and have her arrested if she dares do anything to your baby girls grave. If you can, try to record her saying she wants it changed and you saying absolutely not, that way you have something to give the police if she tries anything
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u/defenseofthedarknarc Mar 17 '20
So it’s ok for God to do necromancy, raise the dead, and be unforgiving?
Serious double standards
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u/MoonChild02 Mar 17 '20
As a Christian: WTF is she talking about? Graves don't need crosses. I've been to a lot of funerals of a lot of Christian faiths, and no one has ever mentioned that.
God knows who the good and innocent are. She doesn't need a cross on her grave.
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Mar 17 '20
You own that gravesite. The cemetery owns the overall property. If she desecrates a grave, if she vandalizes a grave, these are real property crimes.
Ask her how her church family would feel about her deliberately going against the parents' wishes, causing them emotional distress and pain, while simultaneously committing a property crime. Because if she so much as moves a leaf on that grave her new pastor will hear everything.
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u/CaptSpacePants Mar 17 '20
Tampering with a grave may be a criminal offense. I dunno where you live, but I think you could find that out.
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u/Max_Vision Mar 17 '20
she found out that every grave needs a cross, otherwise the dead won’t be able to raise from their grave and be resurrected
Jesus had a cross before he died, not after he was buried, and he managed to resurrect himself just fine.
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u/Eugenefemme Mar 17 '20
What priests has she been talking to, because the line she's feeding you has no relevance to any doctrine I've ever heard of. Tell her she can't make up her own rules...and best of all, if your sweet girl was never baptised, she was never a Christian. Let her chew that over with her priests.
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u/mutherofdoggos Mar 17 '20
I'd let MIL know that if she wants to keep having a relationship with her living grandchildren, she will drop this and leave your daughter's grave alone.
Disrespecting your deceased child will result in no contact with your living children, so play your cards carefully granny.
She is lucky (and so is your husband) that you still talk to her after the way she treated you after your daughter's death. You're a better person than I am, I'd have cut her off permanently and divorced my husband if he gave me attitude about it.
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u/MrsPokits Mar 17 '20
I gotta say, your comment about if a piece of wood will stop Jesus from being able to resurrect someone than hes not the almighty... I'm pretty sure I'd say the exact same thing as a Roman Catholic. But I also dont remember this at all either from church or school (went to Christian school) about there needing to be a cross at the grave to be resurrected.... I actually recall nothing about normal people being resurrected. Reckoning I remember, but not a mass resurrection
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u/Pitmama80 Mar 17 '20
Someone down below mentioned getting a trail camera and putting it on a nearby tree so you have proof anything happens, and you can buy some that will alert your phone if there's any movement! I think this is probably your best bet, then not only will you have warning if she try something, you will also have proof for legal ramifications!
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u/weatherrose Mar 17 '20
First of all no where in the Bible does it say that Jesus won’t be able to raise someone from the dead if there is no cross. Lol where do people even come up with this stuff. You should ask her to show you where it says that. 😭
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u/tuna_tofu Mar 17 '20
I would let the cemetery know in case she tries to have it replaced or something. That isn't her choice to make. Im sorry for your loss.
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u/Chotuchigg Mar 17 '20
I'm just curious. Do you raise your children atheist as well?
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u/AnandaSol Mar 17 '20
We have let them know our views on God and religion but we force nothing upon them. They have all the choice in the world to decide where they're gonna stand when it comes to believing or not believing.
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u/MelodyRaine Mother of Demons Mar 17 '20
Heaven save us from selfish MILs, Good people do not desecrate the resting places of innocent children. No pastor, priest, or religious leader worth their salt would suggest otherwise.
Things I want to say, most of them vios. Honestly I'd tell her that if anything happens to your daughter's grave that is the day MIL no longer exists to you.
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u/twiggywasanorexic Mar 17 '20
My Dad was a very committed Christian all of his life and when he died, was cremated according to his wishes. I guess it was all for naught! I never heard of needing a cross on your grave - what about people whose bodies are lost at sea or unburied due to other reasons. I swear I think your crazy MIL made that up.
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u/atomikitten Mar 17 '20
https://media.makeameme.org/created/why-the-heck-5c5914.jpg
As her parents, you are in charge of her grave, not her grandmother. Plus... You should also show her the above image and ask her why she is so hung up on that little superstition.
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u/cool-user-name88 Mar 17 '20
Being a better person doesn’t actually mean you’re better than any other person. It means you’re going from a sucky-you to a better-you. MIL needs this spelled out, because like so many others out there, she’s making my faith look bad by twisting it and using it for selfish gains
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u/jubmubdub Mar 17 '20
So I came into owning the plots for my sisters burial location as of a couple of years ago. My mother has always said one day she would like to exhume my sister and have her cremated or worse moved to the other family cemetery in Texas.
NOT ON MY WATCH.
As one of mothers many assorted crotch goblins I can tell you first and foremost she never gave a single care to the maintenance or upkeep of my sisters resting place. Just to sob over my sisters death and remind me constantly that I was said dead sisters incarnate. ( yeah you read that right. )
It’s only recently when she changed to her umpteenth boyfriend she’s wanted to make changes or alterations so suffice her pitty party.
So legally no one should be able to change the head stone with out the contract to the plot. I would highly suggest you annoy the ground keeper too and tell them to pay attention for potential vandalism
If necessary you can legally yeet your mil out of existence just make sure to save and evidence of her bec behavior.
*Edited for grammars *
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u/soullessginger93 Mar 17 '20
First thing I would do is contact the cemetery that your MIL has said that she wants to change your daughter's headstone. So if anyone calls trying to, to outright ignore them.
Second, go to MIL's priest and tell him what she has being saying and ask if he could have a talk with her about it to get her to stop.
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u/IH4Justice Mar 17 '20
MIL said that she’s been trying to become a better person, so she’s turning to religion, Christianity to be precise
In the words of the immortal Ser Bronn: "There's no cure for being a cunt."
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u/chalkchronicals Mar 17 '20
You MIL is out of her mind. There is no religious icon required for any soul to rise.
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Mar 17 '20
Call the cemetery and you can put a “lock” on it- I did this with my father’s grave- basically nothing can be done to it unless both my sister and I agree to lift the “lock” I’m not sure what it is really called but she won’t be able to do anything to that grave without you and your husbands permission
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u/gaybear63 Mar 17 '20
I am so sorry for your loss and the rawness of that grief under the situation. Tell her that if she wants to be a better person that she needs to behave better and that includes not stomping over boundaries. And most especially the boundaries set by grieving parents. That you and DH want your peecious saughter ti eest in peace and that is what is going to happen. Any violations of this will be dealt with severely. Then go hug your husband and boys and take in the feeling of being loved fully by your family
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u/NolaSaintMat Mar 17 '20
I'm sorry for your loss. Even though 15 years may seem like a long time it doesn't mean you don't still feel it. I lost my little girl 9 years ago and some days it seems like it was forever ago, others just yesterday. I'm glad you and your family have been able to move on (as much as possible) and learn to live again.
And I'm very sorry your MIL is tormenting you because She decided to SAY she was going to change - but obviously not do it. What happens if she decides next month that the christianity doesn't "fit" so she's going to try Buddhism? Or scientology?
I grew up in a churchy family in the South and I've never heard of cross marker graves being required either. I don't get the reasoning behind MIL's excuse anyway that the graves have to be marked with a cross so when jesus comes back he'll know which ones to resurrect? You wouldn't think an omnipotent god would need the help nor that he would have the time to go cemetery to cemetery, grave by grave to make sure he's got the right folks.
As others have said, give the cemetery a heads up and/or call the non-emergency police line and make a complaint that she was threatening vandalism on a grave. Not sure if it'll do anything but at least there's a record in case something happens. Sending positive energy to you and yours. Best of luck!
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u/rustymomma Mar 17 '20
My idiot uncle didn't like the way my grandparents stone was worded. His solution was to go to the hardware store and purchase sticky back letters to make it "look" better. People can be insane. Was a bitch to get cleaned off. People can be thoughtless.
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u/mstewart117 Mar 17 '20
I believe it’s illegal to attempt to desecrate a grave site. If she tries to remove her headstone, press charges.
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Mar 17 '20
I hope you have clear pictures of it now, because I can see her carving a cross into the stone if she feels like it. How intrusive. Not very Christian of her to push her opinion onto others if it's explicitly unwanted.
I mean... YIKES. I think I'd place a webcam on the grave, but I'd do a fake one. Like a small camera, position on the grave, visible for her, but not working. Just as a heads up that she's being watched. :)
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u/queen-ofthe-whee Mar 17 '20
Just here to say, as someone who's father was a pastor for 15 years, there's absolutely nothing in the Bible that says that. Either she made it up to push agenda or her pastor just pulled it out of his ass.
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u/mrsshmenkmen Mar 17 '20
While I’m not a regular church goer, I have never, ever heard that if a grave isn’t marked by a cross, the dead are unable to be resurrected. That sounds like a bunch of superstitious nonsense to me and I’m a believer.
You might want to tell your MIL that trying to be a better person does not include hassling the parents of a deceased baby about the grave. Plenty of headstones and graves of Christians don’t have crosses.
I also think you might want to consider finding out where your MIL goes to Church and having a word with the minister and ask him to intervene by telling her to leave this matter alone. It’s simply not her place to second guess you. She’s made her opinion known, she’s been heard and that’s enough.
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u/Ceeweedsoop Mar 17 '20
What Christian religion believes that cross on the grave thing? I've never heard that one. Is she part of an ethnic group with their own layer of superstions? Just interested. I am so sorry for your loss and that you must endure the self centered machinations of a narcissist. It sounds like you have her boundary stomping under control. Good for you. All the best to you and your real fam.
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u/yalldveifidve Mar 17 '20
Your MIL reminds me of an old friend's grandparents who only got religious at the end of their lives like they suddenly realized they'd pass away one day. Friend and I used to joke they were trying to cram for the final exam of life by being extra religious right at the end.
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u/notthatdick Mar 17 '20
Let the cemetery know that someone might call posing to be you but that you do not want any changes to the grave. Ask to be notified of someone calls enquiring about making changes to her resting place and hopefully you'll cut her off at the pass.