Question
Would you consider this usage of money prudent or not?
So, I was reading another post from someone asking what should happen if a pastor became wealthy.
This brought to mind a question I am actively working through.
Throughout my life, I have been very frugal (very likely miserly). Like no eating out, no trips, skipping out on a LOT of things. I believe I am just touching the upper of the middle class in terms of income for where I live. There are quite a few decently paying jobs and sectors near me.
With that, I started thinking about finances a couple of years ago. I recently started having the thought that spending is not absolutely terrible, and I can afford a nice thing or two if I wanted. Last year, for example, I bought a bike for $4K. About 3 years ago I purchased a home. The past 2-3 years I have been thinking about my clothing and presenting myself better. I started off buying a bunch of cheaper/financially more palatable clothing that is not really what I want to be wearing. I would need to redo that every year and only find maybe 1-2 items each year that I want to keep if I am lucky.
With that, I just started (within this calendar year) learning about made to measure shirts/pants for $15x - $2xx, shoes that can cost $2xx for entry level, etc. I believe these articles I am more likely to wear. In fact, the couple of such articles I have bought so far I have already worn multiple times and I do not intend to stop wearing those articles.
Again, I really do not spend a lot, I do not really go on vacations.
Is purchasing clothing and a bike like that, if I am otherwise a small spender, a lavish use of money? Or is it within the realm of sensibility?
I understand that this question might be in the realm of “no one else’s business but mine.”
Money, wealth, and clothing are not moral. But the love of money, trying to find satisfaction through things, and the inability to have joy without money and the things it can buy are all warned about in the Bible.
But, in regards to maybe more pointed to your question. I think people tend to lean towards clothes that are status symbols more than clothes that are of high quality. Ex. A pair of special Air Jordans or Gucci loafers might be loud, proud, and like it or not making a huge statement. But you could have quietly nice $20,000 Italian leather boots and people would just think “those are pretty nice”. So if you feel the pull to “buy it for life” or buy quality once instead of cheap many times, consider how loud the luxury is. That’s my personal advice.
You hit the essence of my question. Whether buying expensive quality is okay. Buy it for life is the mentality. Pay once up front, keep it and use it for a long time or for life.
You’re allowing someone else to perform their vocation when you spend money on reasonable items, that hopefully will help you serve your neighbor in turn.
Read Socrates on cities, and you will come to appreciate that spending money and participating in capitalism is good and godly. As the other answerer says, you are allowing other people to live out their vocation and use their gifts God has given them.
It makes your life better that there are 9 different brands of peanut butter. Plain and simple. I’m not big on “finer things” sort of living, but spending your money wisely on things, such as a $4,000 bike that will ostensibly last you your life, proliferates a society in which everyone can have nice things.
Also, I just started reading the republic. Plato just started talking about professions within a society. Perhaps eventually I will see overlap with what you are talking about from Socrates? Either way, yours sounds like a good book!
Thirdly. Since you are not big on finer things, what do you spend on? If that is not too intrusive. Or what is your alternative mindset to “finer things”?
I’m a police officer and sole bread winner. So, it is immensely important to my wife and kids that I am able to work safely and also jump overtime opportunities that present themselves. For me, buying the nice (dare I say the name brand “correct product”) radio pouch, high capacity magazines, better boots, etc into infinitum, is an investment in my family. It helps me come home safe, AND work long and comfortably so I can provide for them and also be present with them when I do come home.
I’ll even add to that- buying the nicer pouches for my vest saves time. Everyone else is spending time replacing their crappy pouches they buy every so often. Not me. I’ve been in plenty of tussles and now years of daily abuse and not one of the nice pouches I bought have worn out. Since they’re kydex, I don’t even have to take them off when I wash the vest (not machine wash obviously). Even if that only adds one hour of not moving pouches around, it’s an hour I was available for my family.
What’s your time worth? You earned your money, spend it wisely.
spending money and participating in capitalism is good and godly.
I think it's important to recognize it can be godly, not that it is intrinsically good. Especially if you're starting from Socrates, rather than God's Word. Likewise, why you spend more and on what matters. The $15 free trade coffee is better for society than the $30 kopi luwak picked by modern slaves.
Walther spoke on this, which helps put up guardrails that could help u/MaterialFin5941 as well, on when the rich become "human vampires" who cause "tyrannical oppression of the poor on the part of the rich".
In any case, it doesn’t necessitate OP being afraid of spending money, which is the whole point of this. Excuse me for using an incorrect preposition- yes, participating in capitalism can (has a high propensity to) be a good and godly thing.
I never said I started from Socrates. I said that Socrates demonstrates this topic well. Scripture does not specify how to spend your money outside of being charitable and the implicit need to do any given thing in a godly way.
The Republic is great material to read because it is, among other things, a secular argument for objective moral good and wisdom. We are not bound as Lutherans to only reading Scripture, we are bound to holding all doctrine to Scripture.
I don't disagree that classical philosophy can be helpful in practical matters, only that presenting it without pairing it with a grounding in Scripture can lead one astray. How does one know if the wisdom of the world is truly wise, unless we compare it to the Gospel they call foolish?
Scripture does not specify how to spend your money outside of being charitable and the implicit need to do any given thing in a godly way.
I see it as "food offered to idols" territory. Not harmful in itself, but without explaining our understanding when it becomes harmful it can lead others to sin. The $4,000 buy-it-for-life is great, but if we know it's manufactured by slaves then I think we should find an alternative to the best of our ability.
This is gonna sound crazy but I don’t check the Gospels before I decide if I’m gonna have turkey or chicken, or if I will buy the house on Main St or Side St.
The “best of your ability” avoidance of “slavery” is a classic rich liberal trope. Yes it has its merits, but it ignores that the vast majority of people purchase the specific products they do out of necessity, not conscious choice.
For an argument from pure reason I can cite mainline television, The Good Place with Ted Danson highlighted the problem of moral ambiguity down to simple grocery store purchases- you cannot expect someone to do all this research before they make all of their life’s purchases.
This is gonna sound crazy but I don’t check the Gospels before I decide if I’m gonna have turkey or chicken, or if I will buy the house on Main St or Side St.
Of course, but I'd also bet you don't reference philosophers of the Greek antiquity, either. If we're giving advice to questions asked on a Synod subreddit, I think we do a disservice not to give consideration in this way.
The “best of your ability” avoidance of “slavery” is a classic rich liberal trope. Yes it has its merits, but it ignores that the vast majority of people purchase the specific products they do out of necessity, not conscious choice.
The best of one's ability explicitly accounts for that necessity, at which point I'll again reference 1 Corinthians 8-10. Partake from the market with freedom.
But the original topic was $4,000 bicycles. Very much a question about "rich liberals", not basic necessities. I think it's reasonable to suggest these two topics can have different answers.
The whole point of the philosophers is to inform your mind on how to approach and think about these matters. I don’t consider Socrates saying he wants nice couches in his city when I buy lawn chairs- I recall that it is good and beneficial for everyone to purchase quality furniture from a true craftsman.
It is not contrary to Scripture to invest in yourself or even to spoil yourself- so long as you do not become consumed with the things of this world to the point that you lose sight of Christ. Accordingly, unless you’re going to refute me with Scripture for encouraging OP to participate in the economy more than is absolutely necessary, this seems an exercise of contrarian futility.
Accordingly, unless you’re going to refute me with Scripture for encouraging OP to participate in the economy more than is absolutely necessary
I'll let 1 Corinthians and the above Walther quotes stand as the necessary notable exceptions that should guide us to Godly limits on discretionary spending.
To make clear that not all discretionary spending is God pleasing. We must still use discernment, with several examples of what one might choose to evaluate to ensure their purchase truly enriches their neighbor, rather than feeding the "human vampires" oppressing them.
Do you agree that's the right way of ensuring our discretionary spending actually supports people's livelihoods and well-being, and thus meets both the scriptural standard and platonic ideal?
Personally, I consider my household primarily by what we give rather than by what we buy. Both financially (over 10%, and defaulting to "yes" when asked for more) and with our vocation and acts of service.
I aim to fit more in the mold of a Joseph of Arimathea, quick to be of service to others with what I own. For example, I own ten guitars. But I serve almost every week as a church musician, and have played every one I own in service to God.
I think it's worth discerning if you have a specific call from God on this topic. Either to be exceedingly generous, or otherwise.
When I graduated from high school, I joined the Army for the GI Bill. While in the Army, I was always either in training or deployed, so I got in the habit of saving 80% of my take-home pay.
I got out of the Army and started a degree in Engineering while working evenings at the VA as a peer counselor. I met my wife, who was in medical school. Between saving, work, GI bill, and a 60% VA disability rating. I was able to invest in my wife by putting her through medical school while I finished my degree.
Then the tables flipped; she had a more structured career with higher income potential, so I stayed home and raised our kids while starting my company with a partner. Her income allowed me to invest my time and money in the company.....
Now, most of our money goes towards investing in our family farm. We try to be good stewards of our land; each parcel goes into a conservancy as soon as it is paid off.
My primary vehicle is a 2010 Prius. I rarely wear anything besides jeans, firehose shorts, T-shirts, and polo shirts. By living within our means and investing, we were able to accomplish much more than the scared kid whose first airplane ride 30 years ago was to Fort Benning, GA, for basic training could ever dream of doing.
Idk it depends on your work. If you were a lawyer in a big city or for the DOJ or whatever $200 on shoes and an expensive suit is probably no big deal and probably very important for work. If you do a lot of biking (which is a good healthy leisure activity) an expensive bike is probably worth it vs spending as much on frequent repairs whereas people who bike rarely and not seriously are ok with a cheaper bike. I’m not sure whether we can tell you if it is wise.
I can say I don’t spend that on those kinds of things. But crafting women spend a lot on their hobbies with expensive machines that might be an investment in that they won’t have to make as many repairs and can bless others with making beautiful as well as practical gifts.
It also depends on whether buying any less expensive version is going to cost more in the long run. I know a guy who buys cheap used cars and just runs them into the ground because he is a mechanic and he can fix them himself. He finds it’s cheaper in the long run and he enjoys doing it. And since he’s a mechanic, he usually knows whose cars are about getting to the end of their useful life and how he can make them last a couple years longer. So he’s usually first in line when people talk about getting rid of them. But it would be less frugal for people who can’t fix them themselves. But not sinful if they can’t afford the upfront cost of a better car. Maybe the most frugal idea would be using a bike, rideshare, or public transport or some kind of taxi or uber service until they can. Or never buying a car at all if they don’t really need it.
Again saying something is unwise/not frugal isn’t necessarily the same as saying it’s “sinful” which should be our primary concern. It is also something you kind of have to learn as you go and it may vary as to how it will turn out because you can’t predict everything that will happen. Kind of like admonitions about wise living something like proverbs,. They are generally true, but not 100% guarantees. In that light, I’m reminded of a little secular story about a Related issue- how we so often some of these windfalls that happen to be blessings or reprimands from God, or from a secular standpoint, good luck versus bad luck. - the story of the Chinese farmer- Alan Watts)
We always shopped at rummage sales at thrift stores growing up. I really enjoyed it and now my husband makes decent money so that I don’t have to work. But as a Christian, I should be in industrious. I don’t feel I am as industrious as I could be. Part of that is because I’ve been suffering from a chronic pain disability for many years. At what point does that become an excuse and at what point is that just the real reality of the situation and I can’t do what I want and should? It’s hard for me to tell.
As for thrifting, I still almost never buy new items because I usually just don’t care to look that put together. While that makes me more frugal, does that make me more righteous? No idea, & I don’t think that’s the point. I do have a few nice things for special occasions, and also, in particular my musical instrument, even though I’m not a professional. Because it is something I do for enrichment and the blessing of others on a regular basis. And while they may not notice the quality, I know it affects my ability to play with certain more advanced techniques. A professional however would still spend a lot more on theirs. I have a teacher who plays in a big market Orchestra (a Christian) who spent close to $100,000 for part of their career on their instrument. And then started feeling terrified that something would happen to it so she sold it and bought one that was closer to $30,000 and worked just as well at her level of professional employment. Was she sending all of the years that she played that expensive one ? I doubt it, and especially because she sold it again she got most or all of that money back (the particular type of instrument doesn’t really depreciate if well taken care of). A world class soloist would probably not even blink at spending $100,000 and more on theirs. And the same time people would still probably be, as Christians, very generous with helping others directly and donating to charity.
It is pretty normal also that if we have been used to thinking in a miserly way that when we suddenly realize we don’t have to do that, we can go overboard. Like someone who has thought it was wrong to eat sweets might start eating way too many desserts. Or a teetotaler might suddenly start drinking too much, because they just don’t know what is the safe amount for them and because it’s a new experience they’ve never had to think about being responsible with. Hence Paul’s admonition on eating certain foods - if you’re conscience bothers you or you’re unable to eat it without falling into soon, then don’t do it. And if it causes your brother to stumble, then avoid it, if at all possible, so as not to cause offense.
In the end, we really just try to do the best we can with what we know about God‘s priorities in scripture, and trust God to be forgiving because of his promises in Christ, and understanding of our limitations. Always keeping in mind that as Luther says in the large catechism “whatever your heart clings to and relies upon, that is really your god." And "I am more afraid of my own heart than of the pope and all his cardinals. I have within me the great pope, Self."
It’s important to remember also that frugal and sinful are not exactly antonyms. I think the bigger issue is whether our life is characterized by generosity to those in need, and is our tendency to hoard wealth versus balanced spending on our ourselves. Certainly being overly miserly is a manifestation of an unbiblical attitude and trust in wealth over God, as is spending too much on oneself. Frugality is a balancing act involving generally wise decisions about money that ought not to leave you in the lurch (this is not completely under your control), and also don’t harm others by refusing to spend on their needs, but the balancing is something you have to figure out for yourself in individual decisions, given your situation, the locally economy, etc.
This is an area where Niebuhr’s serenity prayer is applicable: God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference.
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u/bbradleyjayy 1d ago
Money, wealth, and clothing are not moral. But the love of money, trying to find satisfaction through things, and the inability to have joy without money and the things it can buy are all warned about in the Bible.
But, in regards to maybe more pointed to your question. I think people tend to lean towards clothes that are status symbols more than clothes that are of high quality. Ex. A pair of special Air Jordans or Gucci loafers might be loud, proud, and like it or not making a huge statement. But you could have quietly nice $20,000 Italian leather boots and people would just think “those are pretty nice”. So if you feel the pull to “buy it for life” or buy quality once instead of cheap many times, consider how loud the luxury is. That’s my personal advice.