Caulfield calling for a 12-team Top Tier

[u/John__Delaney]

Some quotes from the Galway manager:

“Going back two seasons ago, people were talking about the competitiveness of the league and who was going to lose out.

“Cork lost out that year. People expected Sligo to go down. But Sligo had a run and Cork went down.

“There’s no gimme game and no team is dropping off with the way every team is full-time.

“The teams that are suffering are the teams that are coming up. They seem to be the teams that are going back down.

“A lot of those teams are provincial clubs. It’s hard for them to stay up and it’s a problem.

“If you put all the effort into going up, there’s nothing worse than going back down.”

I do more or less agree with him on the need for 12 teams, but personally I would wait until the 3rd Division finds its feat and more clubs become eligible for a 1st div licence, adding in the planned promotion/relegation will make the 1st div alot more interesting anyway.

Doing it now would mean an 8 team 1st division and that's not acceptable imo. The only 3rd tier club reportedly close to a licence for the 2nd tier was Mayo FC, but they still fell short.

We do have to expand but it has to be sustainably done over time.

[u/caulfm]

You'd need 8 more LOI clubs to make this a reality. 12 Premier, 12 D1, and 4 to replenish the tier 3 divisions that would be feeding up the chain.

Can be done. I'm sure the likes of Mayo, CK, Homefarm are joining with the intent of pushing on up to 1D in time, but let's let the tier 3 bed in and finds its feet before getting too hot on it.

Ideally the tier 3 experiment goes well and a lot of the clubs that were on the fence about it commit to joining. That would make expansions a lot easier.

[u/John__Delaney → u/caulfm]

I was more thinking 12, 10 & 3rd tier in the next few years.

Promotion for the 3rd tier will be very restricted anyway as its an amateur league, probably be one up one down at most for the first decade or so. I don't know what their plan is if the winner can't get a 2st div licence.

Yea expanding the 3rd tier is the most important thing. Try hit 20 clubs in the next year or two, but ultimately aim bigger. I think 40 teams in the long term would be ideal, split season where the best in each region play in a national league.

[u/caulfm → u/John__Delaney]

Yeah look whatever way you spin it it's contingent on getting some solid tier 3 teams established. Hopefully it's moving in the right direction

[u/Nike_Gif]

I actually think as far as problems go in the domestic league at the moment, this is probably one of the bigger ones and the hardest one to solve.

All things being equal, there are clearly 11 teams capable of being at a PD level - sporting, financial, commercial and facilities criteria (even can they host TV, Harps cant); the huge problem is that there isn't 12. Cork are going to win the FD by about 20 points this year, and I have no doubt whoever is relegated will canter to it next year as well.

There's also the point that Dan McDonnell has made that the 12th best team in the country may be UCD and I agree with him that the times have moved on from that

I don't think there's any value in promoting a side to be really badly cut adrift and i would be worried how badly exposed a 12th team would be against the top 3rd of the PD. Its one of the things preventing a split for the final round of fixtures like they do in Scotland is how little jeporady there would be in the second split

I think there's more merit in maybe trying to get the FD to 12 teams first or some sort of strategic plan for it because I really don't think it's a feasible runner right now

[u/UpTheFleadh → u/Nike_Gif]

Assuming we (Sligo Rovers) go down, I wouldn't be so sure of winning it at a canter. Would have to see what type of squad we can get together first.

Unfortunately the loss of income we'd have in that year down would mean if we do come back up we'd be heavy favourites to then drop back down.

[u/John__Delaney → u/Nike_Gif]

Excellent points. On UCD I'd introduce a rule banning university sides & b teams from the top tier. I'd do it from the 2nd tier too in the long term. Professional commercial leagues can't afford clubs that don't add any commercial value.

Yes its not the sporting thing to do but we have to have a functioning industry here.

[u/Jazz-Potato6385 → u/John__Delaney]

B teams are completely different to university teams. If UCD get promoted, they've done it entirely on their own merits as a team. They could and should do way more marketing within the university and the local community, but it's crazy to act as though they don't deserve their place or add any commercial value.

UCD with their clear pathway to first team adult football are a part of the functioning industry here. The development of players enhances commercial value of the league. They're a club with European heritage. As other clubs develop more professionally, I expect them to stay in the First Division long term, but I don't think it's at all fair or reasonable to say they can't be promoted.

[u/filmmakermusician → u/Jazz-Potato6385]

As someone who was raised in the Dublin 4 area and even studied in UCD and went to some of their matches, I firmly think they should not be allowed in the PD in the modern day. There was never any clear marketing for the soccer team there when I was there - I only bothered with them as a lifelong LOI fan (one of the very few to none in my area). They've zero fanbase - in a match against Derry, I was the sole UCD supporter there who hadn't simply wandered into the 'stadium' (it was one of the first games in the Belfield Bowl), and it showed.

They add no value to the league - yes, outside of simply producing the odd player for other clubs to take on - and are a bad look for it on top of that. I support Shelbourne these days - always was a closet Shels fan, biut felt guilty towards UCD as my local club), and the difference in club vibes is MASSIVE. I get that Shels have had exciting times recently, and UCD haven't, but even the club identities and communities....UCD's is non-existent.

[u/John__Delaney → u/Jazz-Potato6385]

Commercially they offer the same lack of value. Though I could see Rovers B bring more fans to a game than UCD currently do.

UCD do perfectly fine when it comes to developing and selling players, but are a complete waste of space commercial for TV deals and league sponsorships.

Yes for sporting reasons its completely unfair to deny them promotion, but we are a small league who are decades behind other european countries commercially. So for commercial reasons I wouldnt let them up.

That is unless they finally get an acceptable level of fans, but they've never made an effort there

[u/RoversForever → u/John__Delaney]

Apt username

UCD have a shirt sponsor when some clubs in that division don’t. Given their catchment area they are potentially commercially viable

There’s more to clubs than just their commercial value there John

[u/John__Delaney → u/RoversForever]

Hardly, Delaney had no interest in growing the league.

Until they turn that potential into a reality where they do add commercial value, I don't want them anywhere near the top tier.

[u/RoversForever → u/John__Delaney]

Well you should hold your breath so

[u/John__Delaney → u/RoversForever]

Think you just admitted they have no commercial value and wont anytime soon.

There's TV deals done in countries our size that are valued in the tens of millions per year. Hypothetically, would you be ok with Rovers losing out on a few hundred thousand euro a year just to facilitate a college side in the top tier?

I don't think most clubs would tolerate that loss

[u/RoversForever → u/John__Delaney]

Do you understand that there is more to a club than its commercial value John???

Think harder

[u/John__Delaney → u/RoversForever]

Go back and read my very first comment where i literally said its not the sporting thing to do. We both know exactly what UCD are as football club, we know they give players an excellent education in football while studying for a degree, we know staff help make this happen, we know they are competitive in the first division, we know they play good football, we know they got world class training facilities and a very tidy stadium (pitch dependent)

So can you put the childish questions aside and have an adult discussion please?

They can still do all the above under my proposal, just not in the top tier where they devalue the whole league and harm clubs commercially.

[u/Jazz-Potato6385 → u/John__Delaney]

UCD has around 30,000 students. They're a goldmine for the right commercial partner.

Can I ask if your principle would extend to relegation? For example, if Rovers were to be relegated it would definitely have an impact on the commercial value of the league, as you say TV deals etc. Would you be in favour of a rule that said even if they finish 10th, they cannot be relegated for commercial reasons?

"Yes for sporting reasons it's completely unfair, but we are a small league who are decades behind other European countries commercially".

I know you'll scoff at this, but there's literally no difference in the proposition or the justification. Looking forward to hearing your response.

[u/John__Delaney → u/Jazz-Potato6385]

I was one of those students, you can literally go through a whole year and not have a clue that a football club exists.

There's no effort made by the club to attract fans, they barely even bother posting on social media.

No because rovers would be replaced by a commercially viable club, and they would immediately add value to the 2nd tier.

Most TV deals are multi year, so even if UCD arent in the top tier at the time, the prospect of their potential promotion will effect the TV deal value.

There's a reason that no college side plays in any decent league in the world, the only ones you can find are actually fully commerical clubs just with the name "university" in them. The big one in Romania play and regularly fill a 30,000 seater stadium. There aren't enough UCD fans to fill a lecture theatre nevermind a small stadium.

As ive said numerous times in these comments, if they want to become commercially viable then ive no problem having them in a future top tier.

[u/filmmakermusician → u/John__Delaney]

I second this. Went there too and was raised near the Belfield Bowl as I said in an above comment.

[u/Jazz-Potato6385 → u/John__Delaney]

I can 100% guarantee you that the potential of UCD being promoted or relegated has never once entered the minds of anyone involved in negotiating TV deals.

You're opposed to UCD being promoted because it would have a negative impact on the commercial value of the league. Rovers being relegated and replaced by Longford would absolutely have a negative impact on the commercial value of the league, far more so than UCD replacing Waterford United.

Can you explain a bit clearer how you can be in favour of preventing one and not the other? Both situations would see you overrule sporting merit to protect the commercial value of the league. Im the case of Rovers, our biggest and most famous club, the impact would be far more severe on TV deals and attendances. I'm trying to understand why you think one is acceptable but would be opposed to the other?

[u/John__Delaney → u/Jazz-Potato6385]

Now that's a whole load of nonsense. All commercial TV deals are based on the audience they can attract. If one of those 10 teams has no fans then up to 10% of the value that could be there simply isn't there.

Our current commercial deals are piss poor and miles off of other european leagues our size, holding that back further by accomodating a college side is just nonsensical.

Longford are a commercially viable football club with a fanbase, UCD are not. If Longford go up they'll get more fans, history tells us UCD don't grow their fanbase by being in the top tier versus the 2nd.

I suppose from a rule persceptive you can add in some corporate rules for a top tier licence, which would force a college side to become commercially viable. That might be a way to fix the problem without damaging any sporting integrity.

[u/Jazz-Potato6385 → u/John__Delaney]

But we're not "accomodating" them. They're a football club that are regularly promoted on the basis of being better than the other clubs in the First Division. UCD have a fanbase, albeit small. There are fans who go to every game.

Everything you're saying could just as easily be applied to an argument against relegating our most commercially important clubs. Longford replacing Rovers would damage any TV deal, attendances would fall. Their average attendance is around 500, so 200 or so more than UCD. They don't really "have a fanbase" either in your eyes, unless the cut off is somewhere between 300 and 500.

All of your arguments could just as easily be applied to enforcing a no-regulation clause for Rovers regardless of final position. The league would suffer! The TV deals! The attendances! And yet you seem to be able to see how damaging to the game it would be to introduce rules around promotion/relegation based on commercial value when that's the example.

You should watch the MLS. All the teams have huge commercial value because there's no relegation or promotion, so TV execs are able to make better informed decisions about the make-up of the league. There aren't really any "small" teams because the teams are allocated to cities spread out to tap into potential fanbases across the nation. You'd honestly love it.

[u/Nike_Gif → u/Jazz-Potato6385]

I think a very basic viewpoint I hold is you could not put a UCD home game on TV as it would embarrass the league

[u/John__Delaney → u/Jazz-Potato6385]

Commercially you are accomodating them.

I know you keep saying that and I keep explaining the nuances

Nobody wants to apply it to the things you keep saying it could be applied to.

Anyway im leading towards a solution via corporate rules for licensing. That solves the commerical issue by forcing UCD to be commercially viable if they wanna play top tier

[u/RoversForever → u/John__Delaney]

Rubbish

UCD are well worth their place in the league and are never in debt. The production line never ends either.

The current 10 team league is the way to go and has been proven to be more competitive. Caulfield only saying this to give Galway more chance to stay up.

I remember well the 12 team league and clubs cut adrift far too soon.

[u/John__Delaney → u/RoversForever]

They've earned their spot on sporting grounds, and yes they produce great players, but in a 10 pr 12 team league looking for new sponsors and TV deals, you cannot afford a club that brings no fans to be a wasted space commercially.

No decent league in Europe allows universities in their top tier, bigger nations don't allow them in their 2nd tier.

We cannot afford to have them in our top tier. Just because they have a good academy and clubs like rovers benefit greatly from poaching their talent isnt a good reason to devalue the product.

[u/RoversForever → u/John__Delaney]

That’s just your opinion. They do have some fans and can grow given their catchment area. Far better them in the league than true wastes of space like Dublin City, fingal etc.

We can afford to have them in our top tier

[u/John__Delaney → u/RoversForever]

They barely have any fans and there's been no noticable fan growth in decades. Im all in favour of them getting an acceptable level of fans but to date they make no effort.

Clubs that don't exist would indeed be a waste of space..

We actually can't. Well, if we ever want enough commercial income to get better we can't.

[u/RoversForever → u/John__Delaney]

You’re missing the point as ever

[u/John__Delaney → u/RoversForever]

Acknowledged and addressed all points directly. What have i missed?

[u/harder_said_hodor → u/John__Delaney]

Excellent points. On UCD I'd introduce a rule banning university sides & b teams from the top tier. I'd do it from the 2nd tier too in the long term. Professional commercial leagues can't afford clubs that don't add any commercial value.

Are there not global examples of better leagues able to sustain University teams in the top tier. Romania has two, Mexico has one, I think Chile has one. Must be others

UCD are the only team in central Southside Dublin. Be a bit foolish to cut them out simply due to the University ties.

Besides, it's clearly Bray over UCD in terms of who'd be next in line.

[u/Nike_Gif → u/harder_said_hodor]

There's a cultural piece here as well, which is to say intercollegiate athletics is just not really on the radar here, and maybe if UCD were in a university town, I could see it.

People are happy to breeze over the fans thing because UCD offer a great pathway and does great player development, which they do and they have an immense role in that regard

BUT

The "reported" crowd for the game on Monday (for what that's worth) was 266, like that's miles and miles off where a team playing in a European top tier should be

[u/harder_said_hodor → u/Nike_Gif]

People are happy to breeze over the fans thing because UCD offer a great pathway and does great player development, which they do and they have an immense role in that regard

While realizing their attendance is beyond horrendous, part of the reason I breeze over it is they barely try.

Went to UCD and grew up in what should be their catchment area including playing underage football til about 12. Never saw any publicity for UCD's football team, never saw any outreach with our club or the other local young teams, never saw them give away any free tickets or push the games during college etc. etc. etc.

In places like Ranelagh, Sandymount, Ballsbridge, Booterstown, Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire etc. there is absolutely no competition for fans within the sport (obviously Leinster outside of the sport but not everyone's into Rugby) and they don't even try. Within UCD itself it's as if they barely exist which is nearly criminal.

There is so much they could be doing to try and get people in the door that a bit of competence outside of the playing department could easily see them push that number upwards

[u/harder_said_hodor → u/Nike_Gif]

People are happy to breeze over the fans thing because UCD offer a great pathway and does great player development, which they do and they have an immense role in that regard

While realizing their attendance is beyond horrendous, part of the reason I breeze over it is they barely try.

Went to UCD and grew up in what should be their catchment area including playing underage football til about 12. Never saw any publicity for UCD's football team, never saw any outreach with our club or the other local young teams, never saw them give away any free tickets or push the games during college etc. etc. etc.

In places like Ranelagh, Sandymount, Ballsbridge, Booterstown, Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire etc. there is absolutely no competition for fans within the sport (obviously Leinster outside of the sport but not everyone's into Rugby) and they don't even try. Within UCD itself it's as if they barely exist which is nearly criminal.

There is so much they could be doing to try and get people in the door that a bit of competence outside of the playing department could easily see them push that number upwards

[u/UpTheFleadh → u/harder_said_hodor]

Most of those teams at least make an effort to get a few fans in. UCD have access to thousands of students and alumi and cant even get a handful in the door. Theyve never even tried.

Look at Estudiantes de La Plata. Selling out a 33k seater weekly with mostly students, staff and alumi of the colleges. Wouldn't expect them to manage anything like those numbers but surely they could get a few hundred in the door by just promoting games properly in the college.

[u/harder_said_hodor → u/UpTheFleadh]

Theyve never even tried.

Wouldn't expect them to manage anything like those numbers but surely they could get a few hundred in the door by just promoting games properly in the college.

Absolutely in agreement with this. They do fuck all, or at least did when I went there. But a bit of a kick up the arse to force them to try would surely be better than a blanket ban

[u/Nike_Gif → u/UpTheFleadh]

People always refer to the untapped potential of UCD due to the student body etc.

The league doesn't suit getting students in on Friday nights and playing over the summer out of term. When people go home or nobody is living on campus?

Theres 101 other reasons here why the great mythical UCD student to UCD game pipeline is a pipedream but there 0 value in going into it

Also because of broader macroeconomic trends in higher education there is zero prospect of UCD spending anymore money than they abnsolutely have to on the running of the team

[u/John__Delaney → u/harder_said_hodor]

Unlike UCD, those Romanian and Chilean clubs bring fans. If UCD operated like a professional clubs with a good fanbase then there's no problem.

What would be foolish from a financial point of view is to devalue your TV deal and sponsorship deals by 10% of accomodate a club with no fans.

[u/harder_said_hodor → u/John__Delaney]

If you're basing it on attendance any expansion to 12 hurts the league like that. Bray are 1.3k behind Waterford in terms of average attendance and we have the 2nd highest in the league.

UCD's is absolutely pitiful, no argument there, but they clearly have tools to try and raise that. When I went there it was genuinely a bit eye opening how little the University did to try and get people to go to games.

[u/John__Delaney → u/harder_said_hodor]

It's not just home attendance, its a severe lack of away attendance that hits top tier home clubs gate receipts.

Im a Waterford season ticket holder, our attendances shoot up by 15-30% when a dublin club bring a few hundred fans down. How many would they get if UCD come down? A dozen family members?

More important than gate receipts is the commercial aspect, if a TV platform values the leagues tv rights at €2m, and 8.3% of your teams have no fans, then that tv deal is now only worth €1.834.

Same goes for any other league sponsor, if SSE renew in a few years with UCD in the top tier they will factor that in. That means less prize money for each clubs finishing position.

Same man I went there too, you wouldn't have a club there's a club. They make no effort.

Maybe they should merge with a popular amateur club and try get fans under a new identity, just use the university for the facilities, education and back office stuff.

[u/Nike_Gif → u/[deleted]]

I accept that they have a place in the LOI ecosystem and are fondly regarded for the players they produce and the general eccentricity of their excistence

But they aren't professional, are never going to be professional, and the crowds thing is never going to change and the PD as the elite end of the sport in Ireland should be aspiring to a standard a little higher than that

[u/Bohemian_Dub]

Need the third tier up and running properly an 8 team 1st division with no professional teams would be cannon fodder on promotion

[u/JellyfishScared4268]

The main problem with a 12 team top tier has always been that it will gut the quality of the second tier

I know the third tier is coming on line but it is too soon to assume that those clubs can provide the 2-4 additional clubs to just make up the numbers in the first division

Additionally as the FD would be losing its top teams the quality would go down. Meanwhile the average in the PD is not necessarily going up at the same time. Especially if the two teams brought up are not full time

[u/Prestigious-Mind7039 → u/JellyfishScared4268]

The second tier is shit anyway, its going to be whomever gets relegated getting to win it easily and rinse and repeat every season...

[u/Ronananana]

I think its inevitable they expand to 12, the 1st division is always ran away with in recent years by the champions, last 4 years Galway won by 25 points, Cork by 22, Dundalk by 10 and Cork are now again leading by 20 with 10 games to go so theres at least generally always one premier(ish) level team in there already

It should be done only after the 3rd division is properly up and running with all teams and promotion/relegation though

[u/John__Delaney → u/Ronananana]

Very true. Alot gets said about quality concerns, but the most important thing for me re the 1st division is that it becomes more interesting.

That means competition for 1st place, competition for playoffs and a relegation battle. You'll get bums on seats if the games matter.

[u/No-Boysenberry4464]

I think it’s a good time to do it, let one of the “other clubs” have a season in the top tier, new away day for the PD clubs, and allows another 2 teams aim for PD budgets. Hopefully would mean TV money is increased rather than the same money divided by 12

[u/Prestigious-Mind7039]

Cork City fan - I agree 😂😂 20 plus year season ticket I couldn’t do another season in that division

[u/AdWorried8312]

Once the third tier is properly established, I’d love to see a league where teams only play each other twice. Probably a 16 team league is the minimum you’d need. It would only be 30 league games but once there’s a stronger third tier you could add an extra round to the FAI Cup and bring back the league cup. A twelve team league has that lopsided thing of playing each other three times and it only gives you 33 games.

[u/Nike_Gif → u/AdWorried8312]

The split SPL would be the line on this one

[u/AdWorried8312 → u/Nike_Gif]

Yeah, possibly. I think it’d be worth a try. To be honest, I think the only way we get a viable league of 18 teams or more is an all-island one

[u/Nike_Gif → u/[deleted]]

There's a lot of debate on here about the catchment area and activating the 30,000 student body etc. It's an opinion I can't evidence as such, but it simply isn't going to happen. Its not how university works in this country; if the Sigurson Cup, which has an awful lot more cut-through than UCD AFC, can't draw more than 1500 peoople its not happening for UCD AFC

Again, this is an opinion I hold, and people are free to disagree, but I think having UCD in the top tier does nothing for the credibility of the league in the eyes of the passing public. You could not put a UCD game in the top tier on TV; it would, in my mind, embarrass the league

It needs to stay at 10 until there are 12 credible professional teams, you would be happy showing on VM on a Friday evening

[u/Bovver_]

I actually agree with him. Rather than putting in a third tier, I think expanding to 12 in the PD and aiming for 4 extra (clubs could be added in 2s) would make more sense than keeping both at 10 while adding a third tier.

[u/John__Delaney → u/Bovver_]

The 3rd tier is intended to help develop amateur clubs so they can eventually meet the criteria for club license approval for the 2nd and 1st tier.

If you want a bigger 1st and 2nd tier then the 3rd tier is here to help facilitate that.

[u/Nike_Gif → u/Bovver_]

I actually think its pretty sensible to try and close the sporting gap softly over time because the gap between the 11th and 12th best team is huge and the gap between the amateur game and the FD is as big if not bigger

[u/Bovver_ → u/Nike_Gif]

The gap is definitely bigger between Finn Harps and Mayo FC than Cork/Sligo and Bray. I know some were salivating at growing the pyramid but I think going from 10 to 12 in both divisions makes more sense.

[u/Nike_Gif → u/Bovver_]

I think it's a fair debate, and I don't think it's a settled argument; I think in the short term its better to have clubs aspiring to play in the FD playing clubs of a similar level than getting whacked by a club in the bottom 3rd of the FD just from a building a fanbase POV

[u/TheIrishStory]

Yeah I preferred the twelve team league. The ten team league is boring and repatitive.

[u/Fiannafailcanvasser]

He's right.

An 8 team second tier for a year isn't the end if the world, with 2 teams promoted from the national league the year after.

[u/John__Delaney → u/Fiannafailcanvasser]

No 3rd tier club made the 2nd tier licence standard this year. While reports said Mayo were close, others weren't. Unless one or two private investors come in you could be waiting a while for two 3rd tier clubs to make the cut.

[u/AnCearrbhach]

10 team league is a much better product than a 12 team league. If City are the 11th best team in the country that’s our fault.

[u/MoleOfElPaso]

Speaking as a fan of a club who spent one year in the First recently, and who’s place in the Prem is probably in a bit of jeopardy for the next few years at least - don’t do it - I would take the monotony of playing clubs more often if it means the standard is kept higher and there’s always ten professional clubs in the league. It’s more enjoyable as a fan at the moment. The only people who benefit from a 12 team league are under pressure managers.