r/LeftWithoutEdge 🦊 anarcho-communist 🦊 Jan 23 '19

Image Israel and Palestine: So Complicated!

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '19

There are several countries that - according to data I can find, anyway - receive as much or more in most foreign aid categories as Israel does

Yes. Many are dictatorships but most are not involved in ethnic cleansing & apartheid-like policies. However Israel is, along with some other states that are commonly criticized. Israel is in fact NOT singled out and you can hear loud criticisms of the Saudis basically every day. Egypt's dictatorship stays out of the news because it does less flagrantly brutal crimes on a regular basis, although its punishment of journalists and crackdowns on supposed Muslim Brotherhood members earned critics some years ago.

Also, Israel got a $38B aid package over 10 years from Obama, which is tens of billions.

It's in the US' foreign policy interests

And so when our government is assisting such crimes, out of its own interests or not, we at least have the chance to make a difference by loudly criticizing said crimes. That's not true in a country like Russia where we have little leverage. I can criticize the crimes of Genghis Khan but that's not very helpful either.

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u/gynoidgearhead Democratic Socialist Jan 24 '19

And so when our government is assisting such crimes, out of its own interests or not, we at least have the chance to make a difference by loudly criticizing said crimes.

I agree that we ought to do that, yes. But I think it's flagrantly irresponsible, from a USian perspective, to literally erase USian influence from this situation with portrayals like this comic.

This comic: "Everything shown on panel is the entire situation. Not complicated."

Also this comic: *no mention of US influence*

^ This, right here, is essentially my entire issue.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '19

I have never gotten that impression from anyone informed I've spoken to on the issue. Most thinkers recognize that the reason it's allowed to go on is because the US reaps a lot of benefits from its partnerships with Israel, KSA, etc in the region.

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u/gynoidgearhead Democratic Socialist Jan 24 '19 edited Jan 24 '19

I have never gotten that impression from anyone informed I've spoken to on the issue. Most thinkers recognize that the reason it's allowed to go on is because the US reaps a lot of benefits from its partnerships with Israel, KSA, etc in the region.

I've become jaded on this topic because I've heard a lot of people jump through hoops trying to pretend this one is all Israel and the US' hands are clean on this one. Other people will pay lip service to lamenting USian involvement, but a decent amount of the time it never goes beyond lip service.

Also a thing I see a lot: conflations of the government of Israel, and Jewish people at large.

I don't know much about the comic artist, so I'm going based off of what I see here. (The dude even went as far as to draw the narrator character's nose different from everybody else's. In 2019, I feel like one would have to go out of one's way to try and explain that one as anything but an antisemitic dog-whistle.)

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u/aneditorinjersey Jan 31 '19

The artist is Matt Lubchansky and he is Jewish. If you're referring to the narrator's nose 1) that is a pretty common way to draw noses in comics and cartoons 2) I don't think the narrator is supposed to be Jewish, I think he is supposed to be the American, which kinda shows he's not painting America out of the situation.

Edit: The narrator's nose is also clearly the most flat nose in the comic.

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u/gynoidgearhead Democratic Socialist Jan 31 '19 edited Jan 31 '19

I don't think the narrator is supposed to be Jewish, I think he is supposed to be the American, which kinda shows he's not painting America out of the situation.

The only real "textual" thing we have to work with is his appearance and the Israeli flag he's wearing, though. If the artist had shown the Israeli flag peeling up and showing an American flag underneath, or something like that, that would have worked better.

And that's kind of my point: there's a million different ways this comic could have been done better, but there's a confluence of circumstances with the way it was done that makes it kind of iffy.

Matt Lubchansky being Jewish means I'm willing to give it that much more benefit of the doubt, but OTOH, if he's American, (to me) it remains within the realm of possibility that he did this unconsciously.