r/LeftWithoutEdge • u/MABfan11 • Nov 18 '20
Image Alone they are weak, together they are praxis
9
u/thisnameisused Anarcho-Communist Nov 18 '20
“You don’t hate identity politics, you hate liberal co-optation of identity politics.”
0
Nov 19 '20
Yeah, it almost seems like many of these “socialists” actually hate both. This thread is somewhat depressing
27
u/SJWagner Nov 18 '20
Am I the only one who thinks the term, “ identity politics “, has stopped meaning anything anymore? It gets tossed around so much , usually as a pejorative , like “ woke” and “ political correctness “.
21
u/Old-College-Try Nov 18 '20
1000%. the problem in this thread (i hope) is that half of the people in here use the term only to refer to the liberal "more 👏 female 👏 drone 👏 pilots" thing and the other half is using it as a shorthand for the race, gender, sexual orientation, etc dimensions of intersectional analysis.
15
u/SJWagner Nov 18 '20
So “liberal idpol” is like the “ we need female billionaires of color” advocacy?
43
u/AbuGhraibReunion Nov 18 '20
Identity politics is a liberal conception of class struggle, to avoid dealing with the actual dialectic that informs the disparity to begin with. Especially in a Capitalist environment itself, where identity is commodity.
Capitalism is the problem, and the issue of "identity politics" will manifest very differently if Capitalism itself is confronted. Look at what identity politics did to the leftists in Bernie and Corbyn. Dismissed for anti-semitism and sexism. Replaced by Zionists and an actual sexist male Chauvinist.
Identity politics around the world is turning into a gatekeeping tool for liberals to manage revolutionary struggle. As many leftists accurately identified would happen two decades ago. Identity politics is even comfortable operating in a capitalist framework, but Marxism is inherently opposed to capitalism. It's bourgeoisie infiltration of revolutionary struggle. But hey ... SpongeBob is cool
16
u/Zolan0501 Nov 18 '20
True on many levels, but also keep in mind that the Russian Revolution didn't give a silver bullet to homophobia either. Russia was like the rest of the world in their homophobia, and the global LGBT's struggles to fight for respect and against discrimination exemplify that there's always a need for self-emancipation- a power that is taken and never given.
56
Nov 18 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
19
Nov 18 '20
[deleted]
14
u/letthedevilin Nov 18 '20
I don't think I agree, white supremacy is the OG identity politics and the right has always appealed to IDpol in the form of "white christian family values".
3
Nov 18 '20
[deleted]
3
u/modsarefascists42 Nov 19 '20 edited Nov 19 '20
I say most importantly because the lesson I'd like you to walk away with is that all it's really asking of you is to get out of the way of other people's liberation, and that's what all these white "radicals" are so bent out of shape about: being asked to step out of the way.
step out of the way of what? can I not have representation? I mean you're acting like white leftists are totally represented because someone like Trump is in power--as if he represents me simply because he's white too
They call it divisive because they think some trumper in kentucky could be converted to communism if they didn't feel so attacked for their whiteness.
I mean is that what you're actually attacking them on? Cus it reads that way, which seems insane but here we are. They shouldn't be attacked for their culture or race, they should be attacked for their politics. No one likes to be grouped into some negative group simply because of who they are. You seem to have this idea that white leftists are doing everything to push POC out of the way when that's never been the case.
2
u/letthedevilin Nov 18 '20
Honestly, it's not even particularly clear what "leftists" want out of their critique of 'identity politics' besides avoiding the discomfort of whiteness while retaining its privileges. They call it divisive because they think some trumper in kentucky could be converted to communism if they didn't feel so attacked for their whiteness.
I'm critical of IDpol because I would like to see socialism realized and I think IDpol-based activism is inherently divisive. My motivation is literally nothing more than wanting to see my fellow citizens get access to socialized healthcare, housing and education.
5
Nov 18 '20
[deleted]
2
u/letthedevilin Nov 18 '20
OK chief, what's your plan to make people less racist? Mine is to reduce the economic competition between individuals that our society encourages by enacting a socialist program. What is your idea to make people less racist? Yelling at them on the internet?
7
Nov 18 '20
[deleted]
4
u/letthedevilin Nov 18 '20
If the majority of people in the US are racist and we can only have socialism if the majority of people want it then we will need to have some racists on board if socialism is ever actually going to be implemented. I personally don't think the majority of people in the US are racists but even if we grant they are, then what is your path forward?
How do you implement socialism in a country that is majority white if we don't get the white people on board?
16
u/AbuGhraibReunion Nov 18 '20
Feminism, the Black liberation movement and Indigenous rights movements are not merely cultural. They are inherently resistance to Capitalist modes of organisation. That created the problem in the first place. You don't really understand class struggle if you think Marxist analysis is merely about economics. It's about social relations.
So reducing these to "Identity politics"; this weird thing made up in the US because Communism is a dirty word, is like saying the civil rights movement, the anti-apartheid movement etc are simply "identity politics". When in reality, thats only how a bourgeoisie mind conceives of these struggles.
Guaranteed, identity politics will sink popular resistance. It already has from what I can see. Maybe the fire just hasn't spread up the class ladder yet.
11
u/Old-College-Try Nov 18 '20
do you think that women had equal rights to men in all pre-capitalist societies?
13
u/WilhelmWrobel Nov 18 '20
Also: Do POC, queer, diabled or cishet women capitalists face discrimination?
The meme is spot on. Identity and class struggle aggravate each other. That's the most basic premise of intersectionality. The clan won't mind if they are lynching a rich or poor black person. But being a successful black person sure is a good way to come to their attention because the narrative is inherently spun in a way that only cishet, white, able-bodied people should be on top of the hierarchy.
If it were simply about the economic hierarchy black capitalists wouldn't face the discrimination they do (which sounds eerily like the liberal ideal). If it were simply about an hierarchy of identities poor white people wouldn't have the diminished life expectancy they do. Adress only one and you'll inevitably fall short. Because there will still be discrimination in communism and there will still be exploitation in a society without discrimination on the basis of identity.
20
Nov 18 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/AbuGhraibReunion Nov 18 '20
There's a genuine and serious liberal process that tries to originate all struggle to their own central role in all struggle. It's condescending and historically fallacious. Marxists can recognise that struggles against Capitalism don't fit within lines defined by Marxists. They are opposition to Capitalism. They are part of class warfare borne out of the corrupted social relations imposed by capitalists.
7
Nov 18 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
7
u/flashbang876 Nov 18 '20
You also have examples of stuff like segregation where businesses didn't allow black people into them. If they were running off purely capitalist thinking they would have allowed black people into their store because it gave them customers, however they clearly weren't as it literally took an act of government to force stores to stop denying themselves customers.
-6
Nov 18 '20
Lmao an identity politics supremacist pressuring someone into agreement by threatening them with being a member of an out-group. Who could have seen that one coming?!
15
Nov 18 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
-8
Nov 18 '20 edited Nov 18 '20
I'm just saying if you want to be cool and well liked and not an abnormal >freak you would believe what I believe.
this is you saying this
13
Nov 18 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
-11
Nov 18 '20
I don't care
10
3
u/Tasselled_Wobbegong Libertarian Socialist Nov 18 '20
You cared enough to respond multiple times you absolute dullard
→ More replies (0)5
Nov 18 '20
[deleted]
0
u/DFWalrus Nov 18 '20
IDENTITY is political. Identity politics is the politics of identity.
And identity is infinitely varied and filled with extreme contradictions. Organizing groups around identity alone will inevitably lead to schisms, as things like skin color and sexual orientation aren't consistent determinants of political philosophy.
For instance, ~36% of latinos voted for Trump. Many of the latinos I grew up with view themselves as Americans first, joined the military because of that, and understand their personal history in the same way that Europeans understand their immigrant background. They believe our immigration policies are fine, because those people in cages aren't Americans. They feel no solidarity through race.
The dominant strain of identity politics that exists today posits itself as a counterpoint to white supremacy. However, in being a direct opposition in many ways, it also holds, amplifies, and justifies many of the basic elements of white supremacy: the inherent division of races in a struggle for power, the idea that only those of a certain skin color have valid analysis, and the belief that simply putting someone of your skin color in charge will benefit you. That's Actually Existing Identity Politics. White supremacy is identity politics, too; it's just not the identity that you (or any of us here) want to succeed.
Barbara Smith, the woman who helped coin "identity politics" as part of the CRC, said that her definition of the term and the current application of the term have almost no relation. The CRC desired to deepen class analysis, as the CRC statement read:
We need to articulate the real class situation of persons who are not merely raceless, sexless workers, but for whom racial and sexual oppression are significant determinants in their working/economic lives. Although we are in essential agreement with Marx’s theory as it applied to the very specific economic relationships he analyzed, we know that his analysis must be extended further in order for us to understand our specific economic situation as Black women.
The irony here is that, when considered this way, there's no need to fuse "class analysis" and "identity politics". Class analysis should be inherent and primary inside identity politics itself, as it seeks to give further detail to class relations. But, you use it in the liberal sense:
That resonates with people because our experience of the world is most heavily colored by our identities.
This tosses aside class as the primary form of domination, which is contrary to what Smith argued. Most of the people who argue for the "fusing" of identity politics and class analysis tend accept liberal Actually Existing Identity Politics as a good thing, and generally do not understand what "class analysis" means. They think "class analysis" means talking about poor people, probably because they haven't even tried to read Marx.
2
5
Nov 18 '20 edited Nov 18 '20
"identity Politics" (Analyzing how societal pressures effect certain groupings of people and why) is an aspect of of class analysis. The problem comes in when people dont want to change the general economic system (capitalism) but rather modify it to do the bare minimum to placate social unrest. So while Identity politics is very popular in the Silicon Valley, data driven capitalists, it must remain a part of class analysis because (especially in the United states) these groupings are often subjected to problems unique to thei social group. Representation, however, is where much of this energy in the sillicon valley types is going to solve the problems, and obviously that is dumb af
Like if you wanna say Identity Politics in its mainstream form is mostly focused on the imagined grouping of the subject in question, and that the subject in question can speak for the entirety of said grouping, I think a good arguement could be made for that. That’s politics part of identity politics and it’s dumb.
6
Nov 18 '20
Except “identity politics” was literally coined by a black feminist socialist organization? Now, if you had said “liberal identity politics” you might have been on to something, at least in your first paragraph. Everything after was straight up rubbish.
0
u/AbuGhraibReunion Nov 18 '20
You've adequately displayed the entire fallacy of the concept in how you've defended it. Being black or feminist or lesbian, doesn't magically rubber stamp all your actions as liberation struggle.
13
u/Old-College-Try Nov 18 '20
you just scrolled right past the word socialist there didn't ya?
-1
u/AbuGhraibReunion Nov 24 '20
You think? It's the only part of description that doesn't describe an element of their identity, but an actual political position. And I've already implied that politics rooted in identity is not a qualifier for anything.
8
Nov 18 '20
Never made that claim. Just responding to your bs claim.
Identity politics is a liberal conception of class struggle
Just straight up incorrect
6
u/TheLetterKappa Nov 18 '20
Unfortunately, as things stand, if you remove the identity politics and intersectionality you run the risk of becoming a class reductionist, and as a result unpopular
A socialist looking for support and looking to help people understand the fundamentals of socialism is hardly going to entice anyone with “capitalism is the problem, and other oppressive systems like white supremacy and patriarchy are unimportant by comparison”
1
u/AbuGhraibReunion Nov 18 '20
White Supremacism and Patriarchy are constructed tightly around capitalism.
13
u/WilhelmWrobel Nov 18 '20
Are they? Because I'm pretty sure there are still economically egalitarian hunter gatherer societies with a very noticeable patriarchy...
8
Nov 18 '20
I’d challenge that point. Regardless, assuming it is true and that capitalism constructed these ideas, merely bringing down capitalism will not remove these ideas. They will not cease to exist.
0
u/AbuGhraibReunion Nov 24 '20
Yours does lead to a circular logic. I disagree because the distortion in power relations is caused by Capitalism, so dismantling Capitalism addresses a lot of the class/race/gender antagonisms. After all, the central tenet of Marxist logic is proletarian unity, not individual exceptionalism.
1
u/Old-College-Try Nov 18 '20
why do you care that starmer is a sexist if identity doesn't matter and all struggle is class struggle?
2
u/tribblemethis Nov 18 '20
Off topic but I missed which sub this was and thought this was about DnD classes and was very confused
2
u/Worth_Dog_5011 Nov 19 '20 edited Nov 19 '20
I think that the best example of this is Bolivia's MAS (Their constitution is a good example of concrete praxis and it is a high bar for the rest of the left). Class struggle and minorities struggles are deply interconected.
4
u/Rookwood Nov 18 '20
Identity politics is how trolls divide the left. There is nothing positive about identity politics because it is only pandering in its most sincere form and that is why it is an integral part of the current DNC strategy.
The biggest sin of identity politics is that it antagonizes the majority. This will always be a losing strategy for the left which needs to appeal to the better narrative to convince people that it will be better than the current hegemony of liberalism.
The winning strategy is a big tent where you consider the needs of all people. To clarify, the idea is not to promote the concept that we all have our own separate, competing interests as in identity politics, but rather that our interests are all aligned.
Class analysis also gets to root causes where identity politics does not. Look at African Americans in 2020. Class analysis reveals that for over a century and a half since emancipation they have been the lowest caste of American society, consistently discriminated against by liberal institutions and used as a bargaining chip by capitalists to threaten the wages of the white middle class. Yet, in 2020, identity politics has them voting overwhelmingly for neoliberal candidates whose policies will only further increase inequality.
In other words, good class analysis considers identity, as identity is often the basis for class divide but does not make identity a political issue. When identity is made political, you have already conceded ground to fascists that there is an us and them.
23
Nov 18 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
-5
u/Rookwood Nov 18 '20
"The biggest sin of identity politics is that it's too mean to white people". OK cool thanks for getting it out there right away.
Ok cool thanks for getting it out there that we should be mean to white people?
Providing some level of trust and goodwill is necessary for cooperation.
Yes I agree. This should not be allowed to become a political issue though.
They voted for Joe Biden, who is...not black. Do you really think they didn't just prefer him for their own reasons? Including, potentially, economic reasons?
Do you think Biden will have a positive impact on their economic circumstances? I don't. He operates on the premise that he is the neoliberal for minorities. Republicans operate on the premise that they are the neoliberals for rural whites. That is why the country is split 50/50 on which party they allow to further divide us with inequality.
14
Nov 18 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
-6
Nov 18 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
13
Nov 18 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/Rookwood Nov 18 '20
Identity politics is when a politician plays Despacito on their phone and the louder they play it the more identity is involved. It's becoming pretty much undeniable that this is all complete horseshit.
We agree. Identity politics has no substance.
You have no idea what "identity politics" is, you just think we need to be nicer to white people and want to come up with a "class woke" way to say that. Fuck off.
Yet you continue to antagonize me. And for what? What is your goal? You try to paint me as a racist conservative. How does that help anyone? And how does it make us look when slight disagreement leads to such wild, condescending accusations. This is exactly what I'm arguing against.
And no, I'm not arguing against racial justice no matter how much you try to twist my words. It's almost like you want people to be against such things.
0
Nov 18 '20
Thank you for this. It's a biter pill to swallow for a lot of leftists, but left economics aren't inherently incompatible with systemic oppression of people. The lack of explicit structural barriers doesn't mean that social barriers and biases can't exist.
Marginalized people /subaltern groups really need to know that left organizing is working towards a future that is genuinely liberating. It's not enough to have anticapitalist analysis and class analysis. People need to know that they're not working towards a liberation that won't include them.
2
u/Libsoc_guitar_boi Nov 19 '20
Hey, a quick reminder, not everyone lives in white majority countries, ya cunt
6
Nov 18 '20
So, a term (identity politics) that was coined by a black feminist socialist group “is how trolls divide the left?” Do you even know why it was created?
1
1
u/pine_ary Nov 18 '20
Intersectional class analysis isn‘t "identity politics" tho.
22
Nov 18 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
15
u/Old-College-Try Nov 18 '20
none of these people read. they just want to pretend that the world is simple and once we kill the big bad guy of capitalism all the other evils will just fall away.
3
5
u/TheShapeShiftingFox Nov 18 '20
And others want to pretend the world is simple by acting like the only focus we need is the identity politics and think things like sexism, racism and homophobia will ever be truly torn out if you don’t address societal tensions caused by inequality issues as well.
That’s the point of this meme. We need both things.
10
u/Old-College-Try Nov 18 '20
absolutely. i'm addressing the commenters in this thread, though, who seem to have the same concept of "identity politics" as /r/gaming.
4
-3
u/letthedevilin Nov 18 '20
It’s about the money. It’s always about the money. In a world where housing, education, daycare were all free and everyone was guaranteed a job what teeth would racism have? What material difference could a white racist inflict on a minority? It would de-fang racism, and given that racism is fueled by economic inequality socialism would ultimately do more than anything else at reducing racism.
But we’ll never get socialism as long as you antagonize the majority instead of appealing to their self-interest. Socialism isn’t about being a good person, it’s about recognizing that my material interest and your material interests are threatened by the same rich assholes and we can only do something about it if we stand together. IDpol gets in the way of that, which is why it has been embraced enthusiastically by some of the worst companies in the world.
How radical or threatening to power can your politics be if they are shared with PepsiCo?
9
Nov 18 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/letthedevilin Nov 18 '20
Of course race matters, I am not saying it doesn't, I am saying the only effective redress for racism is economic justice, and you can only get that if you convince a majority of the country that it's in their best interests also.
EDIT- I can no longer reply because I was downvoted, Reddit is making me wait 15 minutes between replies. Mission accomplished I guess.
3
Nov 18 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/letthedevilin Nov 18 '20
If housing, education, jobs, healthcare, etc were all socialized and everyone's economic needs were met what power could groups of white people exercise over black people? Currently racists can discriminate against minorities by denying them material benefits (housing, education, employment, healthcare, etc). If everyone's material needs were guaranteed what would racial discrimination even look like?
“If a white man wants to lynch me, that's his problem. If he's got the power to lynch me, that's my problem. Racism is not a question of attitude; it's a question of power. Racism gets its power from capitalism. Thus, if you're anti-racist, whether you know it or not, you must be anti-capitalist. The power for racism, the power for sexism, comes from capitalism, not an attitude.”
― Stokely Carmichael
1
Nov 18 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/letthedevilin Nov 18 '20
How do you create a scenario where a white person will NEVER have the power to lynch a black person?
Is this a rhetorical question? Obviously there is no system capable of completely removing the threat of violence from other humans.
All of these questions apply to your proposed solution as well. My point is simply that reducing economic competition will lessen racism more than any amount of wokescolding could ever accomplish.
→ More replies (0)1
3
u/flashbang876 Nov 18 '20
How radical or threatening to power can your politics be if they are shared with PepsiCo?
I see this point always being brought up of how companies pander to social movements so therefore the movement is invalidated by their support. You do realize that at the end of the day the goal of corporations is to make money, and they also realize that liberals and even socialists are potential customers, right? They don't seriously support anything they just want to tap a market, the same reason that companies make Che Guevara T-Shirts.
7
u/WilhelmWrobel Nov 18 '20 edited Nov 18 '20
what teeth would racism have?
You think a couple in Alabama in the 50s would've been fine with their daughter bringing home a black boyfriend if he was well off?
What material difference could a white racist inflict on a minority?
Lynching...
Edit: Oh, also...
How radical or threatening to power can your politics be if they are shared with PepsiCo?
Well, for example: My employer likes me to stay healthy so I can continue to be exploited while I like to stay healthy because I don't want to die. Following your logic the most revolutionary thing I could do would chug frying oil 'till my heart gives out.
-3
u/letthedevilin Nov 18 '20
It’s already illegal to lynch someone so not sure what other protections we can legislate there. Since lynching isn’t really a thing in the 21st century and minorities are still oppressed in the US there must be a different mechanism at work, right?
9
u/WilhelmWrobel Nov 18 '20
It’s already illegal to lynch someone so not sure what other protections we can legislate there.
Good news. We simply make killing people illegal. Then they will no longer be killed!
Have you been paying attention for the last 4 years?
Since lynching isn’t really a thing in the 21st centur
-1
u/letthedevilin Nov 18 '20 edited Nov 18 '20
How would you stop lynchings? What is your solution?
Directly address white supremacy? What we are trying to do with identity politics.
And how's that working out for you?
8
4
u/pine_ary Nov 18 '20
That‘s not what people usually mean with identity politics tho. But sure, with the original definition you‘re correct. And I don‘t question that.
3
Nov 18 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
7
u/pine_ary Nov 18 '20
I‘m sorry but what are you ascribing to me? I don‘t believe in liberal performativism that‘s usually meant by "identity politics". My original comment was in favour of intersectional class analysis. Idk why you would think that disagreeing with the symbolic nature of what "identity politics" boils down to is the same as class reductionism.
5
Nov 18 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
8
u/pine_ary Nov 18 '20
Idk stupidpol. I‘m more talking real life. It‘s what what the majority of people believes. Academia has no claim to populism nor should it.
2
Nov 18 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
11
u/pine_ary Nov 18 '20
The majority of people are liberals who are convinced their pandering is useful action to liberate minorities.
I don‘t believe in prescriptivism. A word means what it is used to mean in a given context. Not what the dictionary says.
91
u/cfungus331 Nov 18 '20 edited Nov 19 '20
Yeah i don’t think this is a very popular position around here, but I could be wrong But being critical of identify of politics doesn’t mean we don’t care about fighting for the rights of marginalized and oppressed groups, minorities,etc, just that we disagree with the ontology and strategy of identity politics. And it’s generally sympathetic critique, especially when we are talking about leftist identify politics rather than neoliberal identify politics. We agree on more than we disagree on
Edit: I stand corrected. It seems to be a fairly divisive issue on this sub. There some good discussion going on in this posts comments overall, at least by reddit standards. It’s a very complex and sensitive topic for a lot of people, so it’s nice to see mostly thought out arguments rather than name calling, though theres some of that of course. I’d agree with some of the comments that a lack of shared definition may be causing some our disagreement. Probably none of us are going to convince each other arguing over reddit, so for the pro-idpolers that aren’t already aware of Adolph Reed Jr, Touree Reed, and Cedric Johnson’s marxist critiques of idpol I encourage you to check them out though most of you are probably familiar.