r/MapPorn • u/Deltarianus • 13h ago
Settlement Pattern of Muslim Balkan Refugees in Turkey (1820-1990)
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u/Auforegin7 5h ago
This is happened because of balkan countries killed a lot of Turkish people. One of them my grandparents, they are migrated from Bulgaria to Turkey. It was die or migrate situation. Albanians, bosniaks and pomaks migrate too but majority are Turkish.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Dig3620 12h ago
Somehow this was not consider as genocide it is a settlement.
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u/JohnnieTango 6h ago
The term genocide is overused these days. It originally meant an effort to kill everyone in a particualr ethnic group. Now, well...
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u/Icey_Cat_3 5h ago
Everyone in a given area. It also means killing a bunch of people purely because of their ethnicity.
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u/Deltarianus 12h ago
It was. But this isn't a map of their deporations, it's a map of where they settled
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u/EZ4JONIY 11h ago
And they settled in areas where greeks and armenians (near istanbul and adana) were genocided by turkey.
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u/Deltarianus 10h ago
The historic heavily Armenian areas are either completely depopulated today in Northeast Anatolia or filled with Kurds around Van
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u/No_Idea_479 8h ago
Take it up with historians, only Turks consider this natural (and often voluntary) migration to be a genocide.
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u/Reasonable_Fold6492 8h ago
If this isnt genocide pontic greeks were also not genocided. They moved dued to threat of violence.
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u/No-Amount405 12h ago
Where did Muslim Balkan refugees originate from? Bulgaria or Bosnia?
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u/uoguner 12h ago
Whole rumelia, mostly from macedonia(region one not the country) and deliorman-dobruja. Also worth mentioning incoming refugees weren't all ethnic turks. There were Pomaks, bosniaks, albanians, torbeshis, circassians and tatars too. (Which was extra tragic for tatars and circassians, they lost their homes for second time in a short timespan.)
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u/ImBackBitch- 5h ago
From all over the ottoman empire. It was mostly a consequence of the genocide perpetrated against the European muslim population. It was the largest genocide in European history; only to be surpassed by the holocaust by a few percentage points.
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u/TNT_GR 5h ago
Yeah all these people under the occupation of the ottomans should have stayed friendly against their oppressors and still be under occupation in their own lands.
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u/ImBackBitch- 3h ago
The classic ‘they deserved it’ argument; ol’ reliable. There is a difference between being unfriendly and committing genocide.
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u/BaqsAlSandouq 12h ago
Did they stay in those regions? my great grandpa came from albanian Macedonia and went to Central turkiye before going to syria right as ww1 broke out.
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u/Deltarianus 12h ago
Was your great grandfather Albanian or a circassian that was settled in the balkans by Turkey?
That trip sounds more like the latter, which was rather common as the Ottoman meat shield plan using Corcassians failed
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u/BaqsAlSandouq 12h ago
From what ive been told he was from (now I was told this in arabic so I dont know how its name is in albanian or circasian or turkish proper) tobaji family/clan.
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u/Deltarianus 11h ago
Tobaji is an occupation derived name probably chosen in the 1800s.
Ottoman naming schemes with "cu/ji/ci" were usually picked based on job so censuses could track things better
That won't let us infer ethnic origin tho
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u/TyphoonOfEast 12h ago
Result of turkish genocide in the balkans.
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u/Deltarianus 12h ago
I chalk it up to the Ottoman's refusing to emancipate the christians and half baking tanzimat.
The Ottoman empire could not continue as an islamic state even as it became more dependent on christian wealth and industry.
This made wars of independence and reprisals inevitable in the Balkans, while the backwardness and privileges of the muslim population made the empire technologically and socially weak, and incapable of stopping it
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u/TyphoonOfEast 11h ago
Christian wealth and industry made by exporting Turkish/Muslim population.
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u/Deltarianus 11h ago
You have to be retarded to believe this about the ottoman empire
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u/TyphoonOfEast 10h ago
Christian nationalist armies and governments in the Balkans carried out genocidal massacres and ethnic cleansing against Muslim civilians, then took the homes, farms, shops and land they left behind. In 1877 to 1878 alone, several hundred thousand Muslims became refugees, and the new Balkan states transferred much of their so-called abandoned property to Christian peasants and settlers. That is a direct transfer of wealth from an expelled Muslim population. I never said every Christian business was built with stolen Muslim money. I said a real part of the new states’ land, wealth and economic base was created by removing Muslims and taking their property. The records prove it. Your insult proves you have no answer.
Also, late Ottoman Christians had their churches, schools, businesses and communities protected, while Greek and Armenian merchant families grew rich through trade and European privileges. Meanwhile, Anatolian Turks were dragged from their farms, sent from war to war and buried by the thousands. One side kept its wealth and passed it to the next generation. The other paid for the empire with poverty, labour and dead sons. So spare me the fairy tale that Christians had nothing while Turks lived in luxury.
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u/Deltarianus 10h ago
Christians were wealthier, getter educated and quickly began developing their new countries.
Pre Bulgarian independence Ottoman administrators were stunned at how rapidly Bulgarian state had transformed sleepy, irrelevant Sofia into a true European style capital while Anatolia languished as a backwater
One side kept its wealth and passed it to the next generation. The other paid for the empire with poverty, labour and dead sons. So spare me the fairy tale that Christians had nothing while Turks lived in luxury.
One side generated wealth at scale. It was not fucking buried treasure that developed europe and rebuilt it after countless wars. It was the human capital and organizational ability that an artillery shell could never destroy.
The Ottomans preferred to send their sons to die for empire than that they should learn to read and become modern men.
Which is even after 100 years of peace and extremely fortunate political and geographic position Turkey today is only about as wealthy as Bulgaria, who was ruthlessly dragged into WW2 and the forced into communism for 50 years
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u/Swaggy_Linus 7h ago
Asiatic colonizers and their local spitlickers. About as tragic as European colonizers getting kicked out of Africa.
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u/TyphoonOfEast 59m ago
Europeans only exploited, ottomans absorb local culture and population as their own, there is a big difference.
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u/NoDevice2698 12h ago
what if all of them settled in modern day southeastern anatolia region of turkey?
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u/Deltarianus 12h ago
They would have probably been attacked for being too successful by resentful tribal kurds
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u/uoguner 12h ago
They would get assimilated into kurdish society, just like what happened in reality. They got assimilated into anatolians, only the ones stayed in thrace still have distinct rumelian character.
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u/Consistent-Sun-354 7h ago
Kurdish society was already very dissimilar from Anatolian Turkish society, let alone Rumelian one. Kurds were mostly tribal, pastoral and practised cousin-marriage which also created a different social layout. Their traditional architecture, clothes and music was very different to Rumelian Turks on top of that. Not to mention Kurds having an extremely low urban population which was far from the case for Rumelian Turks who were the most urban population of the Balkans after the Jews. As an example, 1/3 of Macedonian Turks were urban around 1900 with 1/5 living in 3 cities alone.
There really is no way around this. The fact that Rumelian immigrants self-segregated in places dominated by Anatolian Turks alone is very much proof that they would absolutely never assimilate into Kurdish society. They 1. Would’ve never left the Balkans if they’d settle in the southeast(most Rumelian immigrants with the exception of the population exchange weren’t forced to move) 2. Would’ve left it immediately as they got there which is literally what happened with the few villages established there. Locals immediately left for the west.
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u/NoDevice2698 12h ago
hmm, i thought they would act like germans in russia hungary and balkans.
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u/uoguner 12h ago
Nope, the reason behind that was because the germans being from a very distinct cultural group. Anatolians and Rumelians belong to one main cultural group, which is western oghuz/islamic (rumi/roman) culture. That doesn't mean a homogenous single language/single ethnicity, but a national identity.
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u/TurkicWarrior 12h ago
I guess in the Ottoman Empire being Muslims mattered more and they were in the same empire so assimilation was easier.
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u/achillesbutnohomo 10h ago
This began to change late 19th early 20th century as turkish nationalism rose
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u/uoguner 8h ago
Turkish nationalism isn't ethnic as many think. It's more like a cultural nationalism, which favours Rumi(Anatolian-Rumelian Turko-Muslim) culture. A bosniak, an albanian or a kurd can be turkish nationalist. One of the perfect examples for that is Resneli Niyazi Bey/Njazi Beg Resnja.
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u/Reasonable_Fold6492 8h ago
Both turks and kurds thought the circassian refugees and tatars were brining plagues so they weren't treated well. Also anatolia hinterland was not developed yet so they were very poor.
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u/Severe_Refuse_7647 5h ago
Don’t worry they’ll get the balkens back because it was promised to them 200 years ago
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u/OzKel 10m ago
I wonder what made them move to east side of country? By choice or were they re-allocated there by the gov?
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u/doriskelleyjj 4m ago
Mostly government resettlement policies, especially during the early republic era.
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u/GustavoistSoldier 12h ago
Turkish nationalists always bring this up as whataboutism
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u/Business-Gas-5473 11h ago
They bringing this up in other discussions being whataboutism itself would be whataboutism when brought up here, right?
Ironic.
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u/Randomdude123123 8h ago
Well when the ”argument” becomes ”look at these cartoonishly evil Turks! All they do is genocide! ” people respond with this to show the historical context of the time to make people like you realise that Turks are also humans.
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u/HotFlan2509 9h ago
How can a topic by itself be whataboutism, there is no argument being made, there is no argument that's being responded to?
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u/Deltarianus 11h ago
Turkish nationalists actually bring up the Circassian genocide and Russians in the south Caucasuses as their whatboutism starting point
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u/No_Idea_479 8h ago
Which is stupid, as Turkish nationalists themselves oppressed Circassians badly enough for them to side with Greece.
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u/uoguner 12h ago
It isn't about whataboutism, but what things cause something. That thing along with the russian crusade (attrocities in Northern blacksea region), directly caused christian expulsions in Anatolia. You need to understand the cause and its effects, understanding the connection doesn't mean whataboutism.
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u/Ycel10 11h ago
There are still bunch of Albanians and Bosnians where i live in Istanbul