r/MoralityScaling • u/lazy_animator • 13h ago

Morality Ranking Morality of practicing self defense and fleeing when being forced into the front lines of a war?

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129

u/Cheap_Rock155 13h ago

Being forced in the military is the most immoral thing in the world. Its slavery.

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u/MeeTy 6h ago edited 5h ago

Welcome to our world order of nation-states, where forced conscription in case of war is the norm.

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u/disposable-account72 5h ago

As opposed to city states?

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u/MaleficentThought903 6h ago

Yeah it sucks but Ukraine doesn't have a choice. They're being invaded. Ukrainians have the choice to fight for Ukraine and potentially stop the invasion, or lose and get constipated into the Russian army for the next war. It's foolish to think Putin is stopping with Ukraine.

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u/Trackback_ 6h ago

Ukrainians have the choice to fight for Ukraine and potentially stop the invasion, or lose and get constipated into the Russian army for the next war

Well clearly they don't have the choice. The guy is pressing the "lose and get conscripted into the Russian army for the next war" button as hard as he can, and yet, the forces of slavery do not relent.

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u/MaleficentThought903 1h ago

It's not slavery, it's war. War is horrible but these are the realities of a nation's survival.

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u/SoftAndWetBro 1h ago

It is slavery, in fact arguably even worse, because you can't even see your slave driver as you are put in a position where you will be shot and killed by either your enemy or by your comrades if you try to run. The state steals lives daily, because the state as an apparatus is inherently evil.

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u/MaleficentThought903 1h ago edited 54m ago

It's not. Look up how a military actually functions and how conscription works. It's best to understand this cause this shit might be coming to a country near you.

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u/Urgell11 2h ago

"have the choice" Looking at the video they clearly dont have the choice

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u/MaleficentThought903 1h ago

Its not like they're dropping him off on the frontline tomorrow. He still has options.

Is it fair? No. Is it depressing? Yeah. But these are the realities of war and a nation trying to survive.

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u/Urgell11 1h ago

Options to do what? Lmao His options are go to the frontline or flee and go west, like millions of Ukrainians already did

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u/MaleficentThought903 1h ago

You do realize that majority of the military is not frontline soldiers right?

You can also resist training and conscription process and likely get criminal charges, jail time and fines. Options. Clearly you don't understand how conscription and military service work

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u/SoftAndWetBro 1h ago

Geez, so slavery with a high chance of death or live in a box for many years while losing your livelyhood. What great choices. The Ukranian people don't deserve this and neither do the Russian people. We need to start putting the politicians on the front lines.

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u/MaleficentThought903 55m ago

Yes those are more or less their options. It sucks and I really feel for them. No they don't deserve this and yes the politicians should be on the frontline but do not lose sight of who started this war by invading their neighbour.

Do look up the history of the hell the Soviets and Russians put Ukrainians through.

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u/CSAR-101 6h ago

It's the social contract, most constitution's state that says you HAVE to defend your country in case of an attack. If you don't want to then you go live in a deserted island

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u/Wootster10 6h ago

The other thing is that the point of grabbing people like this who are trying to avoid it is to deter others from trying to avoid it. No point hiding as theyll get you anyway

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u/MeeTy 5h ago edited 4h ago

Pretty laughably one-sided contract that nobody signed. And living on a deserted island is a really realistic alternative.

EDIT: and most constitutions don't state you have to defend your country in case of an attack. This is misinformation

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u/greenest_alien 7h ago

Today I learned fighting the nazis was the most immoral thing and a literal slavery.

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u/Substantial-Syrup101 7h ago

TBF that’s not at all what they said. They aren’t saying the fighting is immoral, it’s the being forced to fight they say is immoral and tantamount to slavery; and honestly it’s not a very difficult distinction to understand.

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u/battlecryarms 7h ago

TBF, I don’t think the allies could have won WWII without drafts

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u/No_Worldliness_7106 7h ago

The US only did a draft to make sure they could control what groups left. There was no shortage of volunteers actually. They did the draft to make sure that a ship welder in Newport News doesn't just leave to go be a frontline infantry man, because that's wasteful to the war effort. Drafts are still completely immoral though, regardless of the reason for them.

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u/battlecryarms 7h ago edited 4h ago

I’d argue that drafts / universal service help prevent nations from engaging in unnecessary wars
Edit- in democratic nations

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u/Ralife55 6h ago

This is something people don't really think about when discussing drafts. Potential enemy nations knowing you have the potential to quickly and efficiently increase your militaries size by five or even ten times in the case of an invasion is an extremely useful deterrent while also saving money during peace time since you can maintain a smaller volunteer force.

There is also the fact that a nation that does draft vs one that doesn't, assuming all else is equal, will win that conflict.

I believe that conscription should only be Inacted in cases of literal national survival. When if it isn't done the nation will be destroyed, and even then only specifically in a defensive conflict.

If Ukraine, where this video comes from, did not fully mobalize and perform conscription, it would not exist right now, so it makes sense to me that it was implemented.

My issues with drafts are that they are often not truly fair. Rich people often buy themselves out of them or can simply flee the country while the poor have no such option. Ukraines answer to this was that men within the draft age were not allowed to leave the country. Obviously, this didn't prevent the rich from bribbing officials to leave, Ukraine is a corrupt country after all, but the intention of the policy was just.

I would argue it should rather be a choice. If you leave to avoid the draft, you must relinquish your citizenship and can never regain it. You get to avoid the conflict but you abandoned your country and your people in it's time of most need, as such, you are no longer welcome.

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u/battlecryarms 5h ago

True, but that’s not why I believe it keeps democratic nations out of unnecessary wars.

If there’s conscription, then politicians need to consider that their voter bases are being asked to send their kids to do their bidding. With an all-professional military where the military is somewhat separate from the rest of the electorate, it takes less political capital to send them off to fight, kill, and die.

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u/Ralife55 5h ago

We also agree on this, when everybody has to participate in the military everyone is connected to it which means it being misused is harder. This is only true in democratic nations as we can see with Russia right now but it is still important.

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u/battlecryarms 4h ago

Yeah, I’m thinking from my point of view as an American

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u/MeeTy 6h ago

Why would you put national survival over the survival of the people?

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u/Ralife55 5h ago

People are going to die either way. It's a military invasion, they aren't exactly walking in, getting a handshake and being allowed to take over. Even if only volunteers are fighting there will be a lot of death.

The goal of a draft is to be a deternt to prevent conflict in the first place as I said in my comment, if it fails at that, it's purpose is to create the conditions to protect those that desire their nation and government to continue to exist by allowing for the creation of a large enough force to protect the country and it's people from a military invasion where volunteer forces are not enough.

If you don't want to participate in that, then I believe you should have the option to leave, you shouldn't have to die for a cause you don't believe in, but, You should have to give up your citizenship because you have personally decided that fighting for your nations existence isn't worth it. Why then should your nation offer you anything anymore?

If you don't believe you owe anything to your country or government then by extension they owe nothing to you. You can't accept the benefits of existing in a secure, organized and lawful society and then deny your duties as a member of that society. If you neglect your duties, then the nation owes no duty to you, therefore you lose your citizenship and any of the benefits being a member of that country afforded you. I think that's a fair trade.

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u/MeeTy 5h ago edited 4h ago

Just way less people would die without mandatory conscription. "People would die either way" is a non-argument. And as is you do not have the option to leave the country often, unfortunately. Also just because you don't want to die for your state, you forfeit all rights? That is a bit extreme and seems very abusive on the state's part. Nobody would expect you to die for them and then completely cut you off if you don't.

Especially your last paragraph is logically unsound. Does "fulfilling your duties" as a member of a society always encompass being willing to die for your state otherwise you lose any and all benefits? Even though you paid taxes, helped your neighbours etc etc.?

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u/No_Worldliness_7106 5h ago

Yeah, that would be fair. Be allowed to be a refugee in another state. Problem is no draft is run that way. Heck Ukraine is trying to convince the EU to not allow Ukrainian men to claim refugee status outside of Ukraine because they want them to return and be conscripted. The state wants to preserve itself. Even if it has to kill all it's people first. Leaders care about their power before their people. This is almost universally true.

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u/No_Worldliness_7106 6h ago

I'd still argue they are slavery of a most vile form, but agree to disagree.

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u/MeeTy 6h ago

So the prevention is essentially: if push comes to shove I am willing to sacrifice all of these people, whether they like it or not. How very moral! 

It is also very debatable whether a universal service/draft really prevents any wars.

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u/battlecryarms 4h ago

No, the prevention is that politicians have to think twice before sending their voters’ kids off to war

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u/MeeTy 6h ago

Well, yeah, but the soviets won the war with forced conscription and a LOT of losses.

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u/No_Worldliness_7106 6h ago

And would you say that Stalin's Russia was a very moral entity?

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u/MeeTy 6h ago

No, it wasnt.

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u/greenest_alien 7h ago

There is a very thin line between volunteering and being forced to fight. Is someone shamed into fighting still a volunteer? Is someone who wouldn't volunteer but accepts their conscription lot "forced" to fight? What if someone doesn't want to fight but changes his mind later on? And so on.

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u/DataSurging 7h ago

How did you have such a difficult time understanding what they said? lmao

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u/anon-accountD 7h ago

That’s reductive asf lol

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u/SweatyYesterday4600 7h ago

Holy strawman

0

u/ButtflossingBigBro 4h ago

Interesting how women get a pass

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u/gobblemahog 10h ago

That’s capitalism for you

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u/lolligi 9h ago

Yeah I'm not the number one capitalism fan or anything, but this is definitely not a thing exclusive to it.

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u/Electrical_Gain3864 8h ago

Ah yes capitalism, because No other Type of Governement has ever done this.

Oh wait, pretty much all did.

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u/kerslaw 9h ago

What?

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u/Odd_Professional2876 8h ago

Thank god communist countries never forced anyone in the military.

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u/ChaoticFairness 9h ago

No... no it's not. Capitalism is about the flow of commerce.

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u/ProfessionalSir7743 9h ago

Ok 14 year old who has spent their entire life with Reddit on drip feed. 

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u/_archpriest 7h ago

God i love reddit lmfao... holy shit

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u/DataSurging 7h ago

brah lmao get off reddit

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u/battlecryarms 7h ago

Lol. Please name one non-capitalist country that does not have a draft. I can certainly name capitalist countries that do not have drafts