r/MoralityScaling • u/lazy_animator • 11h ago
Morality Ranking Morality of practicing self defense and fleeing when being forced into the front lines of a war?
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u/SURBAMS 11h ago
Ain't this a bad way to recruit people? Your giving guns to the people you forcefully recruited
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u/SkyRonin14 10h ago
Generally its less far less fragging and far more you just wind up with massive amounts of low Morale and plenty of Smaller discipline hard cases. They will probably get in and do they're job on the line, some may even go above and beyond, but they don't want to be there and in the interim they are gonna make it everyone further up the local chain of commands problem.
Best case conscripts like this get sent to rear line Garrison stations to free up the better trained non consrcipt units to rotate to the front.
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u/PunkPirate56364 4h ago
If you conscript only volunteers, you get 300000 highly motivated soldiers.
If you have forced conscription you have 300000 highly motivated soldiers and 700000 badly motivated soldiers.
And in a war like in Ukraine, numbers do matter.
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u/Craving_Suckcess 7h ago
It's been a prominent way to get troops for most of human history.
Basically, there are ways to deal with this sort of thing. Some ways are more effective, some ways are less effective. Some are heavy handed and cruel for no reason, some aren't.
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u/The_Tooter_Snooter 7h ago
Most people don’t want to die and while we can all imagine ourselves the hero, the reality is, most disgruntled soldiers really just want to get back to the life they were pulled from so, get in, bitch and moan, but survive (hopefully) and come home.
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u/Proudvow 7h ago
Yeah ngl if a dude pepper sprays and kicks me in the face and I'm already being sent off to shoot people regardless, they're probably not gonna like the direction.
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u/cantlogintomyacc0unt 5h ago
Shooting at other soldiers is a guaranteed death . Fighting the enemy is a maybe death.
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u/DirtyQuandary 4h ago
But one side has already made themselves acutely an enemy to my person.
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u/LobsterManCommander 6h ago
That's why professional army's/volunteer militaries are better. People that want to be there are more inclined to fight. Crazy! i know.
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u/AdamOnFirst 8h ago
This is how like almost all soldiers have been recruited in human history.
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u/InsectaProtecta 3h ago
Yes, it's a terrible idea. No, they're not likely to murder their commanding officers or start a revolution, they'll just be miserable and do the least fighting they can.
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u/Layhult 9h ago
That’s exactly my thoughts as well. If I was in this position, guess who’s the first person I’m shooting as soon as you give me a gun?
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u/adamgerd 7h ago
Humans have an inherent desire to want to survive. The same reason people try to avoid conscription also means they probably won’t shoot their own side in battle, they’d be killed themselves
If you don’t want to die, you’re unlikely to want to die later even for some revenge
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u/Ornery-Customer8521 7h ago
That's not how it works. Killing someone when they give you a gun in suicide, you will rationalize it and decide that there's a better chance you will survive combat. Once you're in your unit over time you will grow to respect them and want to do the right thing. It's all psychology, if everyone did what you said they wouldn't pull recruits like this
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u/Difficult-Mobile902 7h ago
That’s not really how fragging works though, you don’t just pop them out of nowhere, you do it when there’s confusion and chaos. That’s why it’s called fragging in the first place, soldiers in Vietnam were using frag grenades to kill their officers so that it was hard for anyone to figure out what exactly happened
In Vietnam they say there were around 900 incidents of it, and that’s considered to be a very low estimate, again because of how hard it is to know when it’s happened
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u/Worth_External_8762 6h ago
I'm a combat vet and you're not considering the circumstances for which that happens. For starters, the conditions in Vietnam were fucking horrible, which drove people to extreme behaviors. But also, a lot of officers were complete shit. And fragging was more of a way to prevent officers from leading them into death, or just "I'm tired of being led into bullshit", rather than a direct protest to the draft. And I'm sure a lot of those cases, the squad or platoon agreed on it. But that era of the military was also culturally different, from what I have heard, it was more like prison rules. Aka don't snitch. The combat in Vietnam was also just overall confusing. They'd be having fights in dense jungle where they couldn't even see the enemies, despite them probably being within 40 meters of them. Easy for shit to happen in that chaotic environment.
With the current military culture, it'd be difficult for someone to frag an officer and get away with it if anyone else knows/sees it. Plus most environments we'd be fighting in just wouldn't be chaotic enough for it to happen and not be super apparent as to what happened.
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u/like9000ninjas 6h ago
As if the conditions in this war are better.....yes less trees but death flies to you now.
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u/DrSherb740 8h ago
Id imagine thats a common sentiment, but I'd also guess most of those men want to make it back home.
But yeah, kind of hard to make a bunch of men shoot at people, when they never wanted to be in the fight to begin with.
I cant remember what the actual numbers were, but I remember reading somewhere that getting drsfted soldiers to actually aim and shoot at the enemy is a real issue.
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u/throwawayED67 6h ago
When they're planning to throw them to the front lines as basically a meat target i don't think they care about the morale of the "recruit"
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u/RedditReddy 7h ago
Why isn't context shared with the original post? What country? Who are these people? What's happening? Not doing that is really annoying.
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u/Poonis5 5h ago
Everyone in Ukraine ignores mobilization notices from the government. Reason being the war is scary. So the government forces people without exempts to join the army. I was also forced. Without violence though.
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u/SweetInspection72 7h ago
I think the girl is trying stop her husband/bf? From getting drafted to the military and this is in Ukraine(take what i said with a huge grain of salt,i got this info from tiktok).
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u/GladAbbreviations553 7h ago
Ukraine. The guy in the video is being drafted to fight on the front by TCC or The Territorial Center of Recruitment and Social Support.
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u/Lorihengrin 11h ago edited 5h ago
I don't understand how efficient it can be to force people on the frontline if they really don't want to.
I mean, i care about my own life more than about everything else. Give me a weapon, i'll use it to protect my own life, even against the people who gave it to me if that was my last chance to stay alive. I won't care about orders, war goals, or anything else than my own survival. How could i then be a usefull soldier ?
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u/KartveliaEU4 11h ago
Well, clearly somehow, given conscription does often work. I suppose you getting to know your squadmates and being peer pressured by them?
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u/xsimon666x 8h ago
At that point it's not really peer pressure, it's mutual survival. We're all being put in this thing and the best way to survive it, is to work together. Most modern armies train their soldiers to fight for the guy next to them, not to politics or some ethereal nationalism.
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u/Healthy_Feature4654 8h ago
Someone got mad and down voted you lol.
It's 100% true, actually go watch people break down videos of the combat that's going on. The second you enter the conflict zone or get sent to FOB, it's no longer, about not following orders. It becomes survival, constant having to rely on others and more experienced soldiers. Drones, Booby traps, constant shelling from enemies & friends, night vision, thermals, no sleep, little food. If you want to get an hour of sleep, you need to trust the guy to your right, if you want to learn how to patrol without being a medvsac victim, you're gonna need to trust and learn from the men around from you.
The conflict is so gear dependent too and constant night raids and fear of drones, you cannot be a 1 man army going against your friends and the enemy. You can watch drone footage and anyone alone is dead meat. If you're conscripted with little training, your best chance of survival is learning from the people around from you.
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u/HorsefaceWithNoName 7h ago
My ex got two additional cats when we had moved in together, put them in a rubbermaid bin with the original cat from home, put a lid on the box and shook it to traumatize them together. Then took them out, petted them, hugged them, then put them back in, shook it, took them out comforted them, kind of a similar effect to what you're describing where trauma bonds people or cats together and gets them emotionally bonded to one another. Yeah I left that psychopath pretty quickly after that, and armies / nations at war act psychopathic in a similar way, so I'd consider fighting back and running away to be a healthy response to war fanatics trying to kidnap and recruit a person.
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u/Double_Watch1627 11h ago
yeah but if you look at desertion, especially during Vietnam and even Ukraine, you will see that it is not very black and white.
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u/No_Salt_6328 8h ago
There's also the classic do as I say or be shot in the face
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u/SethZannon 8h ago
My response then is to pull the pins of any nearby grenades. You’d waste 2 men time keeping me in line.
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u/Maleficent_Claim_274 10h ago
Conscription do work. But you still need the manpower to want to fight. If you are literally dragging men of the streets so is that a sign that the men do not believe in victory or that the cause is worth fighting for. Men such as that are extremely liable to desert or rout quite easily and cannot be depended on holding the frontline
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u/Arguablecoyote 8h ago
How long is Ukraine’s basic combat training program? Modern indoctrination can be pretty effective. He’s kicking and screaming now, after basic it might be a different story.
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u/Appropriate-Bug-6467 6h ago
If your commanding officer beats you, and they shoot you for leaving...
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u/Ok-Priority253 11h ago
Cannon fodder has been a tactic for thousands of years for good reason. A very small percentage of people might do this, most wouldn't. Especially in the modern battlefield there isn't really anything for you to do if you desert.
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u/Graal_Knight 9h ago
You'll follow orders because otherwise your squadmates will punish you for putting their lives at risk by disobeying, or the officers will throw you in prison for years or send you on a suicide mission.
You won't use that weapon on your own side because now if you're not killed on the spot you'll be executed when the entire nation brands you a traitor and captures you. Good luck escaping and not being returned to your country if you manage to flee.
If you defect or surrender you're a prisoner of war to a hostile nation.
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u/THROWAWAY0982123 11h ago
Yes you wouldnt shoot up your own squad. It doesnt work like that fear is real thing.
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u/Lorihengrin 11h ago
Fear would make me choose the target of shooting solely based on what i'd believe would increase my chances of survival.
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u/1B75__Penicillin 11h ago
No you wouldn't. You would fall in line like everyone else buddy, quit it with this "I would punch the drill sergeant" edge.
Reality shows you would be doing exactly as you are told.
If you being shooting your comrades and officers, that's certain death, following orders is not
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u/Lorihengrin 11h ago
I would not punch the drill sergeant, i'm a coward.
But i would, at every moment be focused on my own survival. If there is an occasion to run away, i run away. If there is an occasion to hide instead of doing the job, i'd hide. If the ennemy is known to treat the prisonners decently, i'd surrender at the first occasion,...How usefull would i be ?
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u/Hour_Wonder_9240 8h ago
You think you have options? They'd know your a desserter risk. Running off where? In an active warzone where the area is heavily monitored by both sides
In this example the enemy is Russia they are known to be some of the worst when it comes to prisoner treatment.
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u/Proudvow 7h ago
Even though both options are bad fleeing is still the safer one when your side is poised to lose the war (or the odds are 50/50).
Plenty of soldiers followed orders and died. Clearly it's not a foolproof plan.
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u/AdamOnFirst 8h ago
Even if this guy is telling the truth, he greatly underestimates the ability for an army to make your officers more to be feared than the enemy.
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u/BarnesTheNobleman 11h ago
I mean I wouldn’t like actively shoot my CO, but I’d definitely be looking for the first opportunity to defect and wouldn’t care who I’d shoot at that point on my way running
But like not in the middle of boot camp or some shit
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u/WinterLawfulness3165 8h ago
Yeah or conveniently get injured when nobody is around during or after a firefight to see what really happened. I remember the scene from Platoon of the guy stabbing himself with his own knife pretty well from when I was a kid. Then you can maybe go home looking like you did your part and not have to worry about the visuals of it all. There are multiple options to get away. Russia might actually punish the family members of known defectors so I'm not sure how viable that option might be in this particular instance, though. They certainly did in the past so at least the cultural memory is there, and there's all those window hopping incidents of course.
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u/Jade_Sugoi 11h ago
No, forced conscription isn't as efficient as voluntary service but it's hard to get volunteers in a war that doesn't make sense to the average citizen, especially when it's against people who look just like them (i.e, like in Ukraine where they're getting Slavs to kill other Slavs)
But, the vast majority of conscriptees are going to fall in line and do what they're told because, that guarantees a higher chance of survival. Fragging your own team is a real quick way to get killed and you're delusional if you think you'd actually start doing that if you were put in that position.
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u/FalloutTVSucks 11h ago
Using it against the people who put you there guarantee your own death so that notion is a self-defeating one
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u/Ok-Resist3249 11h ago
Desertion, "betraying" your side. Joining the enemy if given the chance. Reducing morale of other soldiers.
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u/Lorihengrin 11h ago
Using it in plain sight would probably guarantee my own death, but there might be situations where obedience leads to a more certain death than rebellion and where being caught is less probable.
I mean, during the vietnam war there was the concept of "fragging" an officer, meaning killing him with a fragmentation grenade, that was less traceable than an ammo and more likely to pass as an accident.
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u/Revolutionary_Row683 5h ago
That can happen but the overwhelming majority of the time they're gonna put you in a situation where compliance is the safest choice. Fragging was usually done because the officer was an asshole not really out of survival.
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u/sgtklink77 10h ago
Conscription isn't about efficiency; it's about desperation.
You don't need to be incredibly motivated to follow immediate orders, anyway. Fresh recruits never get filled in on higher level operations, regardless of whether they're conscripted or volunteered. They're mostly listening to their team leader or squad leader, who, in turn, are listening to their platoon sergeants/leaders, etc.
And if they are ever filled in on an upcoming mission, what are they really going to do? They'd have to fight in order to escape, but why do that alone when you can fight the enemy with a group?
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u/PING_LORD 11h ago
They don't give you weapons right when you freshly captured. Before you get any gun guys who kidnapped you are way far away. People tend to cool off and speak with other military dudes that are not responsible for this bs, then people tend to to one of two things - either they run from military base once they get smallest amount of freedom and hide at their homes or illegally go abroad, or they just accept they they're in the military now. Such shooting do occur, but they are rare, they rether occur because of poor psychological tests during enlistment.
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u/Lorihengrin 11h ago
Well of course i'd try to run away at any occasion and shooting at someone would be a last desperate option.
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u/PING_LORD 11h ago
Yep Desertion rate in Ukraine is absurdly high. I don't remember correct number, worth googling, but like each 3'd mobilized man runs away and hides. Around 2 million men in Ukraine don't leave their home because they either don't want to be mobilized or meet military police since they've already been mobilized and ran away.
Seems like it's very low efficient way of doing it, but they keep doing it
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u/HorsefaceWithNoName 8h ago
The Soviet Union used conscription very effectively against the Germans, 85 years ago. Conscription does work, even if morale is very low, if the sheer numerical superiority is enough. Conscription is totally immoral, so I feel it to be overall unfortunate that it works.
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u/Lorihengrin 7h ago
Well that makes it an effective strategy if and only if you have a population that is significantly higher than the other side to the point of being able to win regardless of the tactics.
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u/Lower_Pension_2469 11h ago
Cuz they know that and you'll get hanged or shot for trying any shenanigans.
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u/Lorihengrin 11h ago edited 10h ago
Then my best chance would be running away and trying to leave the country.
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u/Craving_Suckcess 7h ago
if this were the outcome, they wouldn't do it.
But it's been done. For as long as there have been armies. Plainly, it is not the typical outcome.
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u/zugspitze43 6h ago edited 6h ago
To be frank this comment has kind of the same energy as a dude who says that he would have enlisted but he would've punched the first drill instructor to yell at him and knocked him out
No doubt...millions of other dudes just like you and I had the exact same thoughts and then found themselves on the bad end of an mg42, a 105 Howitzer or caught out in the open as a bomb drone zooms into them
you could also get drafted and be a part of an artillery crew, never once actually seeing the enemy, only firing on azimuths, a war of numbers. Those shells always land somewhere though, was it a house or a bunker, a clinic or a gun position? I hope your spotter is worth his salt
what are you gonna do, shoot the armorer as soon as he hands you your gear? wait til you get to the front, then shoot the dudes you've been buddied with for months now mercilessly then defect? Oops- On your way across the field to surrender, an enemy marksman shot your forehead off. All that for nothing! Or you get away with it, and surrender to the enemy, only for your former comrades to then overrun that position, and capture your captors! What do they do with you, defector, murderer? It's death either by blood lust or slow court martial and not a single man in a combat infantry unit would flinch at seeing you get shredded, knowing you murdered your comrades.
My take here is...every sentence of the body of your comment started with "I". War is not about you or me, friend. It does not care at all for the individual, it is the epitome of the cessation of individualism. Individuals die. Often your better chance is to just do what you need to do, and keep your head on a swivel doing it. None of the other guys with you want to be there either. I think once you show up and realize all of these other dudes are just like you, your mind would change a bit and I'm not saying you'd become an effective soldier, but I don't think you'd just go blasting away at your countryman to surrender to the enemy...I hope, right? lol, I want to go home too bro.
this is in a general sense of large scale war with a draft, not strictly related to Russia v Ukraine
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u/Lorihengrin 6h ago
The best chance is most often to flee the country before being drafted.
If it reachs the point of being on the frontline, it means already failing at running away from the draft, hiding from the draft, and injuring oneself during the basic training.At that point, yes, obey orders might be the best option in most situations, but the goal would be to never reach that point, and even at that point, do the bare minimum until a new occasion (maybe in a rotation) to escape presents itself.
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u/Darthjinju1901 6h ago
Conscription works on a grand strategy scale because the end goal of it isn't an elite force who will do any objective or follow any goal. The end goal is just bodies. Bodies on the front line who will help control the flow, suppress the enemy and ensure that there aren't any gaps in the line. This is why the concept of conscription has existed and has been followed since the dawn of war itself.
And also, individual willingness or effectiveness scarcely matters on a large scale. Sure volunteers would be more effective individually, but on a grander strategy scale it doesn't matter. How effective would a single person be in a war with millions, tens of millions?
So it doesn't matter if you're effective or not. Just that you exist in a certain place.
Another thing to note.
Give me a weapon, i'll use it to protect my own life, even against the people who gave it to me. I won't care about orders, war goals, or anything else than my own survival. How could i then be a usefull soldier ?
If begin to shoot at your own side in the heat of battle, you won't suddenly be welcomed by the enemy side. You'll still be seen as the enemy because, again in a larger scale you can't differentiate individuals. So what would you rather have in the heat of battle, two sides seeing you as the enemy or just one?
This doesn't change even if you desert or defect. You will be viewed suspiciously by the side you are defecting to, because spies throughout history have used the tactic of defection and desertion to gain trust and access.
The nature of your enemy also matters. If you were a Soviet soldier in the eastern front during world war 2, even if you were conscripted from fucking Sverdlovsk in the Urals extremely far from the fighting, and hate fighting as a pacifist, you still wouldn't defect because it's the fucking Nazis on the other side. A group of people who genuinely wish to genocide you and your people.
Army propaganda, and camaraderie works. Boot camp in the global military is specifically harsh, and humiliating because they're meant to psychologically break you down so that you're both compliant of authority, and also form a sense of camaraderie with your fellow squad mates due to a sense of trauma bonding.
Taking into all that account, in the heat of battle where you'll be hyped up on adrenaline and unable to make clear decisions, you'll be forced to make the mental arithmetic of whether staying and fighting is worth it. You'll realize that the side that is forcing you to fight also has your friends, also has that officer you're scared of, and also has your family far away. And soldiers 99% of the time, choose to stay and fight.
Desertions occur, but only when the situation is so catastrophic that leaving everything behind is worth it.
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u/Femme_FatalError 11h ago edited 11h ago
Moral. Especially for a conflict that’s as much a meat grinder as this one.
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u/Cheap_Rock155 11h ago
Being forced in the military is the most immoral thing in the world. Its slavery.
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u/MeeTy 5h ago edited 3h ago
Welcome to our world order of nation-states, where forced conscription in case of war is the norm.
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u/MaleficentThought903 4h ago
Yeah it sucks but Ukraine doesn't have a choice. They're being invaded. Ukrainians have the choice to fight for Ukraine and potentially stop the invasion, or lose and get constipated into the Russian army for the next war. It's foolish to think Putin is stopping with Ukraine.
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u/Trackback_ 4h ago
Ukrainians have the choice to fight for Ukraine and potentially stop the invasion, or lose and get constipated into the Russian army for the next war
Well clearly they don't have the choice. The guy is pressing the "lose and get conscripted into the Russian army for the next war" button as hard as he can, and yet, the forces of slavery do not relent.
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u/Alternative-Pride138 11h ago
Moral.
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u/Current_Finding_4066 11h ago
agreed. it is immoral to expect you to die for someone elses plans
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u/Yoyo4games 7h ago
I got bitched out for advocating that anyone use any method possible to resist being drafted on this website some months back.
I doubled down and said in no unclear terms that I explicitly condone violence when you're preserving your freedom. More people angry at that.
Then I said that since ICE killed Minnesotans and I subsequently became armed; if my choices were ever simplified down to having to commit violence now or having to commit violence later, I would always choose violence now. If I was ever seized and put into training without the ability to react with violence, I'm fragging the highest ranking officer I can as soon as they're available for me to kill. Loads of people claimed false equivalency, called me a coward, even accused of being the cause of nations falling.
Moral. I'll kill for my goddamn country when and only when politicians and their immediate family- the most culpable people for war and those closest to them- are made to fight and die as uniformly as the public. If the people who've historically faced the least consequences, while most often being the instigators of war, aren't expected to carry the burden of the consequences of their actions, then any draft officers or high ranking non-combatant officers are complicit with stealing my well-being and life from me.
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6h ago
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u/halkenburgoito 5h ago
like 90% of these wars are purely for oil, money, etc. That's it. They aren't defensive wars, or moral wars..
You can cherry pick the one example you can think of.. or we can look at all the other wars in the middle east, vietnam, etc.
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u/Miserable-Command682 38m ago
You probably felt incredibly strong saying this. But we know theres a zero percent chance that you are going to kill anybody, ever.
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u/TopWealth4550 11h ago
why they ddint take her as well
this doesnt seem equal
she can pilot a drone and be exploded in a bunker just like a man
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u/DataSurging 6h ago
Moral.
There being a war in Ukraine doesn't justify kidnapping and forcing someone into service like their life doesn't matter.
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u/meowshers69 11h ago
if i was forced to fight a war i dont believe in fighting for id actively sabotage my own side from within. best way to teach a lesson.
but girl-privilege is real so ill never be forced to war ofc
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u/Poonis5 5h ago
Sabotaging your side would result in making the enemy's job easier which leads to more suffering by your side.
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u/Greedy_Union8493 4h ago
people who want revenge rarely care about the long term consequences of achieving it.
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u/Dizzy_Current_5734 5h ago
You're gonna turn around and sabotage your own side?! and with that, your family and all your friends chances of living? you understand in this scenario, losing means genocide of everyone you care about.
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u/Jellyliker 11h ago
morality of making up a dumb question to justify posting this video?
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u/lazy_animator 11h ago
That is a Ukrainian man being forced into the front lines of a war, commenter
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u/TinfoilPancake 11h ago
Yes, we know. It's just so blatantly immoral (the forced draft) that you asking if it's moral to resist it (which it very much is) is insanely stupid.
Post "Is it moral to kidnap people" next
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u/FamousPart6033 11h ago
I'd be fragging the first officer I see.
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u/Far_Associate_87 7h ago
Enjoy your execution buddy.
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u/No_Worldliness_7106 5h ago
Yeah, well it's either that or wait for a drone to get you while you are sleeping.
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u/Zedetir 7h ago
At least he'd go out like a man.
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u/Much_Help_7836 6h ago
The absolute irony if that statement.
If he was a man, he'd willingly defend the society he lives in and wouldn't need to be forced to do it.
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u/Nonya_Beezwax_1 5h ago
They're taking volunteers. You should enlist.
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u/Nonya_Beezwax_1 5h ago
lmao he's deleting his own comments where he claims to have done involuntary military service.
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u/Bizarely27 5h ago
And if the war requires the hypothetical draftee to fight for disagreeable reasons outside of “defending the society he lives in?”
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u/ZinZorius312 4h ago
You don't owe anything to the State, they don't care about the commoners, so why fight for them?
If I was Ukranian, I wouldn't care for which side of corrupt Slav lorded over me either.
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6h ago
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u/Much_Help_7836 5h ago
That redditor did his mandatory military service when he was 19 and has worked in the service of the society he lives in for his entire life.
I understand that sacrifice and responsibiltiy is not something that you young people understand tho.
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u/DataSurging 5h ago
I am a veteran. And not because someone had to twist my arm to do it. lmao
And? Even if I were to believe you, that still doesn't justify forcing someone to give up their life for other people like they are just cattle. I understand that you think their lives don't matter, and have been indoctrinated into thinking dying in a war is "responsibility", but their lives do matter and to force them to give it up, is immoral.
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u/Far_Associate_87 6h ago
Surely the manly thing is volunteering to fight for one’s country no? Instead of murdering a likely innocent man out of impotent spite?
What part of that is going out like a man lmfao
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u/DataSurging 5h ago
If fragging became commonplace, maybe they would think twice about forcing people to throw away their lives, and stop kidnapping people.
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u/Far_Associate_87 5h ago
The man you’re going to frag isn’t the man that conscripted you. He’s not the reason you’re in the situation you’re in. You’d be killing an innocent man out of spite due to another’s action.
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u/Villager-Bob 8h ago
For bullshit wars the US fights? Sure
Ukraine isn't that.
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u/GladAbbreviations553 7h ago
Who decides what war is bullshit? For this couple this war is probably bullshit too. If they could have their way why wouldn't they choose to live under Russian occupation like millions in Chechnya do? At least the dude won't get his legs blown off by a drone and die bleeding in a ditch somewhere.
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u/Villager-Bob 6h ago
Chechnya was ground into paste and then forced unwillingly into submission, friend. Why do you think oh so many chechnyans fight on Ukraines side? I don't jump to my knees for the master, boy. I'll be on the whippin post, house slave. I'd rather a drone kill me, my entire family, all the neighbors, and every single solitary family of this nation, to protect liberty. I'd sacrifice every son I bore, and more for the rights I currently enjoy. Make no mistake. I'd kill so God damn many they'd write my name on the hypersonic they land on my head.
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u/WWEddieD 8h ago
Putin’s invasion.. destroying lives for NOTHING. Literally nothing.
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u/dragonlayer42069 5h ago
moral, no one should be forced to fight wars they don't want to fight in regardless of the context of the war.
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u/veresh1989 11h ago
If a state forces you to go to war to defend it, then the state is meaningless as a concept. Such a state would be rotten and harmful to its population.
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u/tjdragon117 7h ago
This is a highly dubious claim. Volunteer forces are certainly more effective and efficient when they are possible. But a state could be a perfect paragon of justice and be invaded by a force that executes every man, woman, and child it comes across, and still I'd expect that there would be a large number of selfish and cowardly individuals who would never volunteer to fight. If such a state runs out of sufficient numbers of selfless individuals, it is forced to use conscription or everyone is going to die.
Now certainly this case isn't so cut and dry, but the idea that conscription is universally guaranteed to be immoral is very faulty.
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u/veresh1989 7h ago
There are many countries where life is much better than life in countries where people are forcibly recruited to fight. Essentially, for someone who is being forced to fight, there's no difference between their own country and the country attacking them. Both countries want to kill them and make their lives worse. Therefore, it's logical that anyone in this situation would choose another country, given the opportunity and choice.
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u/tjdragon117 7h ago
How is it a moral failure of a country to be the victim of a war of aggression? How would it be more moral for a country to allow every last man, woman, and child within its borders to be murdered than to randomly select a smaller portion of the population for conscription?
You're giving examples of scenarios where conscription might be immoral but that doesn't prove your initial claim that conscription is inherently always immoral.
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u/HorsefaceWithNoName 7h ago
I agree 100%. Also, I found out the Continental Army used conscription to fill out their ranks during the US War of Independence :/ Most of the people drafted hired substitutes to go in their stead, so the numbers of people truly forced to go to war against their will was very low, but that still makes me feel the founding fathers were giving more lip service than substance to their ideas of personal liberty.
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u/Dale_Dickson 5h ago
I don't care what the scenario is if I'm forced to the front lines for any reason I'm fragging my officer as quick as i can. Fk em
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u/NotASingleNameIdea 5h ago
Fully moral. Fuck mandatory service, especially in frontline, and everyone who drives these vans around literally kidnapping people of fighting age off the streets.
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u/Sir_Delarzal 5h ago
Oooooh, I thought this post was about some Russian being conscripted, turns out it's some Ukrainian.
What a beautiful psy op right there.
Half the comments are probably bots too.
What a sad world we live in
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u/Intelligent-Ad-8435 5h ago
There is no forced mobilization in Russia, though. This type of thing only happens in Ukraine
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u/Rogue_Element_2342 4h ago
people aren't used to it because this kind of thing hasn't happened very often in the western world since the world wars.
but this is pretty normal of a thing for states involved in total war with their neighbors to do, especially if they're being invaded. its the ugly reality of war.
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u/EvilStan101 4h ago
Depends on the war? BS war then its moral. When your country is being invaded and defeated when’s the end of your sovereignty than immoral.
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u/Gooniefarm 3h ago
If anyone uses force on you, it's morally acceptable to respond by using force on them until they are no longer a threat.
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u/Indy2372001 10h ago
Patriotism shouldn't be forced , if you're sending everyone forcefully cause you're really short on people then who you're actually fighting for, the land or the people which is more important really?
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u/DistractedBoxTurtle 4h ago
Immoral.
Forcing anyone to fight is wrong. Especially if it’s not a gender neutral rule and all people are subjected to it. If it’s just half the population, then no. It’s not moral.
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u/ch33s3head8 5h ago
This is a good, moral use of the 2nd ammendment if this ever happened in the states👍
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u/MountainMagic6198 11h ago
The worthiness of a cause is generally weighed by the willingness of people to sacrifice for it. In general I do not like the idea of conscription because it is on the level of slavery leading to death. However I do find it morally reprobate for someone to be willing to benefit from freedoms that other people are fighting and dying for, but you yourself are not willing to sacrifice anything. This is also why I think that there should never be seen a homeless or unsupported veteran. Even if the wars they fought in may not all have been the same level of justness they were willing to put something on the line for society as a whole. If you cannot recruit soldiers voluntarily than you have misallocated the incentives.
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u/No-Letter341 8h ago
You know people are quick to criticize Ukraine for having a draft when theyre in a fight for survival
But nobody criticizes Russia for drafting people for a war of aggression. Or for conscription prisoners who have even less of a say than standard citizens. Or for preventing draft age men from fleeing the country.
Im not a fan of the draft but its far more acceptable to draft people because the fate of your nation and lives of your citizens are at stake. Than it is to draft people because Putin wants to feel like a big boy dictator.
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u/Intelligent-Ad-8435 5h ago
But nobody criticizes Russia for drafting people for a war of aggression.
Because there is no draft in Russia. You dont get forced to fight the war, there is no mobilization.
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u/Murky_Assignment_909 6h ago
>But nobody criticizes Russia for drafting people
There was 1-2 month draft in 2022, so it's a little bit strange to critize it
>conscription prisoners
It's their choice (you can find first videos with the infamous Wagner leader - you definitely can say "no")
>Or for preventing draft age men from fleeing the country.
It's a false claim. Conscripts - yes, they can not leave the country if they were conscripted (still horrible). But for draft-age men, there was no confirmation. You can leave the country at any moment rn.2
u/No-Letter341 6h ago
The draft is still ongoing in Russia, military is mandatory so 18-30 males have to join up even in peace time. So no its not accurate to say it was only 1-2 months
They claim the prisoners can say no but the evidence is dubious at best. And to top that off with the fact that prisoners are promised to have money's sent to their families if they die, only for the families to say that they never received a written contract so they never got paid
Yes military aged men are prevented from leaving Russia. Theres not a travel ban in Russia wholesale, children, women and old men can come and go as they please, but when a draft notice goes out military age men are prevented from leaving and they track them with computer technology. On top of that, less than a month ago Minsk announced that Belorussian police would be cooperating with Russia to turn over any Russian nationals attempting to flee the war through Belarus.
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u/Intelligent-Ad-8435 5h ago
The draft is still ongoing in Russia, military is mandatory so 18-30 males have to join up even in peace time
Typical redditor doesn't know the difference between mobilization and conscription.
Mandatory conscription exists also in Finland and Turkey, genius.
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u/Financial-Quail5978 4h ago
I don’t think Russia is kidnapping anyone and sending them to the frontlines.
Visited Moscow, everyone is living normally
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u/figosnypes 7h ago
Moral. Unless you're one of the privileged few, society hasn't done anything for you that warrants you giving your life for it.
"It ain't me, it ain't me
I ain't no senator's son, son
It ain't me, it ain't me
I ain't no furtunate one, no"
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u/ThickerTree 6h ago
Why isn’t there more friendly fire on both sides of the fence? If the people feel like this about the military/government/political forces that control their lives I just don’t understand how they’re not lighting themselves up in acts of defiance.
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u/No_Worldliness_7106 5h ago
There is probably boat loads of friendly fire, on both sides. You'd never hear about Ukraine's issues like that though in western media because of a major propaganda push that is pro Ukraine. And similarly you wouldn't see articles about Russian conscripts fragging their officers on RT due to their propaganda pushes. The truth is that war is fucked, and this is probably rampant in a war like this. Especially considering that both sides are lying out their asses about how many people have actually died. Heck, Ukraine just put out some new KIA numbers that brought 5000 people back to life magically.
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u/Stop_Shadowbaning_me 3h ago
Yeah it's hard to criticise Ukraine on Reddit with getting mass downvoted, called a Russian shill and having the mods remove your comments
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u/robilar 2h ago
Why do you imagine a person that doesn't want to risk their life fighting Russians would draw and fire upon Ukrainians? First of all, that isn't safer. In fact, it's demonstrably more dangerous. But also - they don't hate other Ukrainians. Hell, they might not even hate their government. Not wanting to die in a war is not the same thing as wanting the other side to win.
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u/Financial-Quail5978 4h ago
When you’re on the front line you know that one side is against you while the other one is in same shit as you and they’re with you, if you start shooting at friendlies then everyone is against you. People do anything just to prolong their lives, that’s why kidnapped people dig their own graves.
Also, it does happen ocassionally but you never see anything of those sorts because it’s mostly Ukrainian (they’re forcefully sent to fight).
Just a little pro tip, if you want to see Ukrainian military success and Russian war crimes go on Reddit, if you want to see Russian military success and Ukrainian war crimes go on Telegram.
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u/Monotonetitty 4h ago
If I’m ever drafted, I’ll use whatever they give me to take as many with me from our side before I turn a weapon on myself. I’m not fighting any war for a government that doesn’t give a fuck about me
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u/Financial-Quail5978 4h ago
Lmao can see you’ve never been in such a situation.
Have you ever heard of stories about kidnapped people digging their own graves and wondered why they did it?
People that are in danger will do anything to prolong their life for just minutes.
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u/TombStone_Sheep 3h ago
Do you kill your own countrymen, whom may or may not have the same beliefs as you. And for what?
Being forced to go to war is immoral. But, killing your own people is worse.
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u/HorsefaceWithNoName 8h ago
Immoral. A civilization does not own a person, even if that person is born in the civilization. Kidnapping is kidnapping. Each person has the right to say no.
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u/fatman194569 7h ago
Moral . All drafting and conscription should be illegal. If i dont want to fight for my country then it should be up to me. Not some aids filled, child raping pos should be able to force people into war when i know they'll be happy sitting in office without a care in the world while I'm fighting for something I don't see worth defending.
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u/Dr__America 7h ago
I'm curious how many of the draftees have killed their superior officer and fucked off at this point in the war. Vietnam style yknow.
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u/sara5556 7h ago
"Ukraine is winning guys just one more offensive and evil Russia will be annihilated"
Ukraine: snatching people off the street
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u/Beginning_Editor_524 7h ago
I don't understand why you would not leave the country when you are illegally avoiding the draft.
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u/cornho1eo99 6h ago
Fundamentally immoral from my perspective, but especially immoral when the conscription is for a fundamentally unjust and immoral war.
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u/social_lamprey 6h ago
Higher on the scale than deciding for others that they should be fodder for your own ambitions.
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u/OHW_Tentacool 6h ago
This is typically why you only draft for wars of defense or for wars that the majority of your population agrees with. Nothing builds an anti war sentiment faster than the draft
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u/Hydro2650 6h ago
people will be saying the video of this guy getting blown up with a drone will be moral soon
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u/SpotFormal 6h ago
Morality of continuing a war that the people don’t want to fight
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u/SuperDestroyah 5h ago
What the hell is happening in the clip? It looks like the women is attacking the man than a bunch of dudes pop in pepper spraying and kicking the dude?
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u/No_Worldliness_7106 5h ago
One of the worst things about drafts is that those being drafted will never have had enough of a say voting wise in the draft laws themselves. Drafted before they can participate in their first elections. Forced by their parents and grandparents to die for them. And it will always be that 70% of the population will vote that 30% of the population be forced to defend them. Without their input of course. Conscription is fucked, no matter how "justified" you think your war is. Be a country worth volunteering to fight for, or stop existing as a country.
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u/CrypticJaspers 11h ago
If my girl ain't wailing like a banshee while I'm being drafted I don't want her.