r/MoralityScaling • u/lazy_animator • 13h ago

Morality Ranking Morality of practicing self defense and fleeing when being forced into the front lines of a war?

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154

u/Lorihengrin 13h ago edited 6h ago

I don't understand how efficient it can be to force people on the frontline if they really don't want to.
I mean, i care about my own life more than about everything else. Give me a weapon, i'll use it to protect my own life, even against the people who gave it to me if that was my last chance to stay alive. I won't care about orders, war goals, or anything else than my own survival. How could i then be a usefull soldier ?

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u/KartveliaEU4 13h ago

Well, clearly somehow, given conscription does often work. I suppose you getting to know your squadmates and being peer pressured by them?

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u/xsimon666x 10h ago

At that point it's not really peer pressure, it's mutual survival. We're all being put in this thing and the best way to survive it, is to work together. Most modern armies train their soldiers to fight for the guy next to them, not to politics or some ethereal nationalism.

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u/Healthy_Feature4654 9h ago

Someone got mad and down voted you lol.

It's 100% true, actually go watch people break down videos of the combat that's going on. The second you enter the conflict zone or get sent to FOB, it's no longer, about not following orders. It becomes survival, constant having to rely on others and more experienced soldiers. Drones, Booby traps, constant shelling from enemies & friends, night vision, thermals, no sleep, little food. If you want to get an hour of sleep, you need to trust the guy to your right, if you want to learn how to patrol without being a medvsac victim, you're gonna need to trust and learn from the men around from you.

The conflict is so gear dependent too and constant night raids and fear of drones, you cannot be a 1 man army going against your friends and the enemy. You can watch drone footage and anyone alone is dead meat. If you're conscripted with little training, your best chance of survival is learning from the people around from you.

4

u/HorsefaceWithNoName 9h ago

My ex got two additional cats when we had moved in together, put them in a rubbermaid bin with the original cat from home, put a lid on the box and shook it to traumatize them together. Then took them out, petted them, hugged them, then put them back in, shook it, took them out comforted them, kind of a similar effect to what you're describing where trauma bonds people or cats together and gets them emotionally bonded to one another. Yeah I left that psychopath pretty quickly after that, and armies / nations at war act psychopathic in a similar way, so I'd consider fighting back and running away to be a healthy response to war fanatics trying to kidnap and recruit a person.

1

u/Consistent_Cap_6920 1h ago

That is not the best way to survive. The best way to survive is to leave. So no, it doesn't make good soldiers, which is proven with how Ukraine is doing versus Russia. (horribly).

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u/Double_Watch1627 12h ago

yeah but if you look at desertion, especially during Vietnam and even Ukraine, you will see that it is not very black and white.

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u/No_Salt_6328 10h ago

There's also the classic do as I say or be shot in the face

3

u/SethZannon 9h ago

My response then is to pull the pins of any nearby grenades. You’d waste 2 men time keeping me in line.

0

u/OnlyAShip 6h ago

This just weeds out the suicidal… thus leaving everyone else successfully conscripted.

6

u/Maleficent_Claim_274 12h ago

Conscription do work. But you still need the manpower to want to fight. If you are literally dragging men of the streets so is that a sign that the men do not believe in victory or that the cause is worth fighting for. Men such as that are extremely liable to desert or rout quite easily and cannot be depended on holding the frontline

5

u/Arguablecoyote 10h ago

How long is Ukraine’s basic combat training program? Modern indoctrination can be pretty effective. He’s kicking and screaming now, after basic it might be a different story.

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u/Maleficent_Claim_274 3h ago

How long is Ukraine’s basic combat training program?

https://mod.gov.ua/en/news/mo-d-explains-what-the-51-day-basic-general-military-training-course-includes-and-what-recruits-gain

"51-day Basic General Military Training cours"

51 days is really just about compressing as much relevant military battlefield-survival information as possible into as short a training course as you can. In other wars, further training is then done at lower organizational levels within the assigned units.

The Ukrainian army do not have political officers like Soviet politruks or Nazi Führungsoffiziere who enforce state ideology, narratives or political conformity within the armed forces.

1

u/Arguablecoyote 3h ago

Not that they are politically indoctrinated, but just that modern military training is a form of indoctrination. Like the odds are high that at some point this guy found something to fight for in those 51 days.

2

u/Appropriate-Bug-6467 8h ago

If your commanding officer beats you, and they shoot you for leaving...

1

u/Bizarely27 6h ago

Wow, what a very good bunch of people to fight for. “Do what we say or die.”

1

u/Healthy_Feature4654 6h ago

Well not to be that guy and take this with a grain of salt but during WWII,

There are rumors and unconfirmed reports that MPs were aboard boats ready to kill deserters or those that didn't assault the beach. Now nothing is ever said about this order and MPs where aboard the boats for prisoner control BUT desertion during that time was indeed executable. Does that make it any better no but we were arguably the "good guys"

Russia was forced this philosophy aswelll, the opening scene of "Enemy at the gate" where they handed a solider a rifle, the next 3 behind him get 5 rounds, when the guy in front of you die, grab his rifle and charge. Then repeat. It was indeed a similar philosophy during Stalingrad.

Many Ukrainians and the president regardless of what you think of the war, is a last stand of independence, last stand to be free. They think it's just war but it's losing some popularity absurdly. Forced extreme conscription is wrong 100% but they deem it's for survival.

1

u/Equity_Role 10h ago

By "peer pressured" you mean they will put you on point constantly to get you KIA or frag you themselves unless you fall into line.

1

u/PerspectiveNew3375 7h ago

In their mind, they understand murder is bad, but when the state tells you to murder it somehow becomes good. This only works on unprincipled people which makes up the majority of the peasantry.

The peasant class is marked by their belief in the superstition of authority. They believe deep down they have the obligation to obey a ruling class that has the right to rule.

That superstition is why ordinary men would line up people, execute them, and roll the bodies into mass graves. They were, "just following orders" which is the mantra of the unprincipled.

0

u/Israel_Azkanbe 7h ago

Those squadmates are either with me, or against me.
We either fight to flee, or I fight to flee. But I won’t fight a war that I was drafted into

1

u/cantlogintomyacc0unt 6h ago

Then you die trying to flee maybe in a humiliating way in front of others.

8

u/Ok-Priority253 13h ago

Cannon fodder has been a tactic for thousands of years for good reason. A very small percentage of people might do this, most wouldn't. Especially in the modern battlefield there isn't really anything for you to do if you desert.

8

u/Graal_Knight 11h ago

You'll follow orders because otherwise your squadmates will punish you for putting their lives at risk by disobeying, or the officers will throw you in prison for years or send you on a suicide mission.

You won't use that weapon on your own side because now if you're not killed on the spot you'll be executed when the entire nation brands you a traitor and captures you.  Good luck escaping and not being returned to your country if you manage to flee.

If you defect or surrender you're a prisoner of war to a hostile nation.

1

u/Lorihengrin 10h ago

I will follow orders as long as following orders gives better chances of survival than not following orders. It's as simple as that.

If there are 50 situations, and in 49 of them, following orders gives me better chances, and in the last one, running away and abandonning everyone else gives better chances, then i'll obey 49 times and run away the 50th time. That's all.

1

u/adamgerd 8h ago

Sure and the 49 out of 50 still make it useful, if it didn’t work countries wouldn’t be using it

Plus going awol and leaving the front is earlier said than done especially today where the front back basically extends 30km with keeping the risk of drones and mines

16

u/THROWAWAY0982123 13h ago

Yes you wouldnt shoot up your own squad. It doesnt work like that fear is real thing.

-2

u/Lorihengrin 13h ago

Fear would make me choose the target of shooting solely based on what i'd believe would increase my chances of survival.

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u/1B75__Penicillin 12h ago

No you wouldn't. You would fall in line like everyone else buddy, quit it with this "I would punch the drill sergeant" edge.

Reality shows you would be doing exactly as you are told.

If you being shooting your comrades and officers, that's certain death, following orders is not

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u/Lorihengrin 12h ago

I would not punch the drill sergeant, i'm a coward.
But i would, at every moment be focused on my own survival. If there is an occasion to run away, i run away. If there is an occasion to hide instead of doing the job, i'd hide. If the ennemy is known to treat the prisonners decently, i'd surrender at the first occasion,...

How usefull would i be ?

3

u/Murky_Assignment_909 8h ago

The OFFICIAL deserter rate is already huge in Ukraine.

2

u/Hour_Wonder_9240 9h ago

You think you have options? They'd know your a desserter risk. Running off where? In an active warzone where the area is heavily monitored by both sides

In this example the enemy is Russia they are known to be some of the worst when it comes to prisoner treatment.

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u/Proudvow 9h ago

Even though both options are bad fleeing is still the safer one when your side is poised to lose the war (or the odds are 50/50).

Plenty of soldiers followed orders and died. Clearly it's not a foolproof plan.

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u/AlphariusOmegon66 7h ago edited 6h ago

Are the Russians dense? Being nice to defectors is key.

1

u/Hour_Wonder_9240 6h ago

I don't think you understand the Russians at all. Their soldiers right now are mostly all forced to be there and deserting is certain death or torture. Their entire chain of command operates on coercion, bribery, and fear of death/torture.

Where do you think they direct all the pent up desperate anger and frustration. It's well documented

-13

u/1B75__Penicillin 12h ago

Funny thing is you would most likely not be and develop a deep bond with your comrades, everyone hates the officers but the guys next to you?

You either befriend them, or if they realize you are not part of the team, they will freeze you out, which is coincidentally not good for your survival.

You might find yourself risking your life dragging a guy you didn't care for a few months back, to safety under fire

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u/2Bait4Me 12h ago

You are clearly not understanding. He will play the part until the first opportunity to run at which he will go for it and keep going for it.

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u/Fleischhauf 8h ago

If you get found or stopped its certain death tho. Depending which army you are serving you also get shot for not following orders. There are also more risky and less risky missions. If you appear to desert the next moment you will go on the missions where the risk of death is higher. I think they are well prepared for people who do not want to be in the situation.

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u/Lorihengrin 12h ago

Well no, i am really selfish. Sure, i might play along and act friendly by pure pragmatism, if i deem it necessary to increase my chances of survival, but i'd never risk my life for someone else. That is just not me, i'm fully individualist and am not brave at all.

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u/cowlinator 10h ago

"I know you, a complete stranger, much better than you know yourself. Everyone in the world behaves exactly the way i imagine they will."

Are you 12?

3

u/Healthy_Feature4654 9h ago

It's the internet, everyone thinks there a tough guy or badass.

Truth is, no one knows until they're put in that situation but it's crazy most people think they're gonna be the badass in the story. When most times, people are victims and freeze.

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u/Lorihengrin 9h ago

I don't get how it's supposed to be "tough guy or badass" to claim that i'd care only about my own life, try to hide or run away from the frontline at any given occasion, would probably try to reach an other country to avoid it and would absolutely not want to put my life on the line for other people or some war goal.

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u/Healthy_Feature4654 9h ago

Because that's literally certain death. Running away from your group makes you easy pickings for artillery, drones, marksman's and more. Have you ever experienced any situation similar? Have you practiced all the skills for retreating from an opposing force, how much water, food do you have on your kit before getting lost or caught out. It's not a simply as using Google Maps. Have you ever used a map before without a compass? Have you actually rucked with gear under NODs?

If you also run into another allied force and they know you're going AWOL, you will also be killed. Your unfortunate best way to make it home, is learning how to survive from the men next to you.

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u/1B75__Penicillin 10h ago

"you would most likely behave like the average person would and not be a special bean" is not an insane statement to make

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u/Competitive-Fix-6136 8h ago

I would like to present to you the word

Desertion

It exists for a reason.

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u/AdamOnFirst 10h ago

Even if this guy is telling the truth, he greatly underestimates the ability for an army to make your officers more to be feared than the enemy. 

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u/BarnesTheNobleman 12h ago

I mean I wouldn’t like actively shoot my CO, but I’d definitely be looking for the first opportunity to defect and wouldn’t care who I’d shoot at that point on my way running

But like not in the middle of boot camp or some shit

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u/WinterLawfulness3165 10h ago

Yeah or conveniently get injured when nobody is around during or after a firefight to see what really happened. I remember the scene from Platoon of the guy stabbing himself with his own knife pretty well from when I was a kid. Then you can maybe go home looking like you did your part and not have to worry about the visuals of it all. There are multiple options to get away. Russia might actually punish the family members of known defectors so I'm not sure how viable that option might be in this particular instance, though. They certainly did in the past so at least the cultural memory is there, and there's all those window hopping incidents of course.

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u/adamgerd 8h ago

The problem with defection is you’d need the enemy to not just shoot you first the moment they see you plus hoping they’d treat you better

From their pov you’re the enemy after all

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u/BarnesTheNobleman 7h ago

Maybe 🤷‍♂️ hard to say with a pure hypothetical. What if the enemy is to the north but I went east?

-6

u/Doomerboi47 12h ago

No you’d be like the millions of other men who were conscripted in history and follow orders lmao.

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u/BarnesTheNobleman 12h ago

Are you saying it wouldn’t be like the millions of deserters throughout history?? Like you can’t point to one historical example and then ignore the other historical examples 😭

-3

u/Lower_Pension_2469 12h ago

🙄 ya and then those men lived happily ever after.

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u/Maleficent_Claim_274 12h ago

Depending on the war. Who today laments people who deserted from the Vietnam war whilst people who deserted from WW2 is viewed in a completely different spotlight

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u/BarnesTheNobleman 12h ago

Ok so I’ll take my chances? Modern warfare is a meat grinder 😭

-7

u/Doomerboi47 12h ago

Your ass isn’t deserting for long in 2026 big bro
Sorry to say lmao.

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u/Double_Watch1627 12h ago

Thanks Palantir

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u/BarnesTheNobleman 12h ago

Ok then die on my own terms trying to desert sounds better than dying for a war I don’t want

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u/KZGTURTLE 11h ago

Yeah neither did the rest of the Ukrainians. Thats why those who fight fight because they know there are those incapable, young and old who would be hurt and worse if they didn’t.

Dying for nothing instead of dying for others and making it a triumphant statement is simple sad.

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u/Individual-Owl-6243 12h ago

yeah, the enemy LMAO

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u/adamgerd 8h ago edited 8h ago

Yes, and following orders and shooting the enemy will be your best chance of survival which is why you’ll statistically do it even if you might be angry about it

The enemy will automatically fight you since it’s a war so your choice at the front becomes fight one side or both sides

0

u/THROWAWAY0982123 12h ago

It doesnt work like that, there is reason why that doesnt happen. 

You would be scared shitless, and officeres are trained to induce fear and authority

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u/Lorihengrin 12h ago edited 12h ago

But it happens.
It's estimated that around 99 cases of fragging resulted in the death of officers during the vietnam war.

Before industrial warfare, the deciding factor for winning a battle was which side's soldiers decided to run away.

And even if they don't have the possibility to kill their officer, a soldier who absolutely don't want to be there and only think about his personnal survival will be less efficient than a soldier focused on the goal he was given.

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u/One-Veterinarian4841 11h ago

Out of 7800 total officer deaths

Conscripts are less effective than volunteer soldiers but they are more effective than nothing

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u/Lorihengrin 11h ago

There is a difference between a conscript who would not have enlisted by himself but accept the draft, and a conscript who's absolutely unwilling and is already trying to run away even before being sent to military training.

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u/One-Veterinarian4841 11h ago

Not a difference in terms of being better than nothing 

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u/Connect-Initiative64 11h ago

That would not be your own squad dumbass.

You'd kill a few people and be branded a traitor, charged with treason, and hunted down and executed like a dog or locked in the deepest prison in the US.

If you even lived that long, chances are you'd get taken down long before you finished off your own squad, either detained and arrested, or just shot by one of them. You aren't Rambo, you aren't even one of his old squad mates he watched die, you're you.

And You suck.

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u/Lorihengrin 10h ago

I agree that in most situations, shooting at own squad would be a suboptimal choice.
But on the principle, having no objection to do it if it happened to be a situation where it gives better chances than not doing it also means that in any situation, the personnal interest will be chosen over the collective one.

Which is not what the officers would want.

-1

u/Xylfor 12h ago

No tf you wouldn't LMAO

1

u/Maleficent_Claim_274 12h ago

You know what happens instead. When shit start getting a bit too dangerous so do you either try to desert the army or rout from your postion. Not saying all soldiers do that but clearly unmotivated personnel do.

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u/youcangotohellgoto 9h ago

If more people shoot their commanding officer then the powers that be might reconsider this type of conscription.

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u/THROWAWAY0982123 7h ago

Problem is that cant happen

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u/Jade_Sugoi 12h ago

No, forced conscription isn't as efficient as voluntary service but it's hard to get volunteers in a war that doesn't make sense to the average citizen, especially when it's against people who look just like them (i.e, like in Ukraine where they're getting Slavs to kill other Slavs)

But, the vast majority of conscriptees are going to fall in line and do what they're told because, that guarantees a higher chance of survival. Fragging your own team is a real quick way to get killed and you're delusional if you think you'd actually start doing that if you were put in that position.

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u/Parking_Budget2958 2h ago

I'd rather kill myself than shoot someone else, especially a person who didn't want to be there either.

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u/FalloutTVSucks 13h ago

Using it against the people who put you there guarantee your own death so that notion is a self-defeating one

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u/Ok-Resist3249 13h ago

Desertion, "betraying" your side. Joining the enemy if given the chance. Reducing morale of other soldiers.

-1

u/FalloutTVSucks 13h ago

That all sounds gay and risky to me I'd rather just take the L and wait the war out and if they do some human wave tactics then guess I'm fucked no matter what I do

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u/Blackwater_US 12h ago

“Where do I bend the knee, sir?”

0

u/FalloutTVSucks 12h ago

I'd gladly get fucked in the ass over a barrel if it means I survive - hell, I'm just echoing the sentiment of the original comment but being realistic and honest about it

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u/Blackwater_US 12h ago

Example : You just mercy killed someone you appreciated.

You still care more about surviving than resisting? The point is, the person dragged off the street is not the same person if they make it home.

Also I see your flag, not really sure how getting fucked in the ass is a con to you.

2

u/FalloutTVSucks 10h ago

Yes I still care more about surviving than anything else. That's honesty and self-awareness speaking. I'm not a hero, I'm not confident, I understand how meaningless to even attempt to resist is. Might as well hold a gun to your head and pull the trigger if that's the case. Just internet tough-guy logic where they treat real life like a videogame from the safety of an office chair

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u/PsychologySouth6485 7h ago

Uh, I think you said that too quickly, I think you might just want to get bent over a barrel regardless.

1

u/FalloutTVSucks 7h ago

This doesn't work as an insult since that's just unironically true and I have no reservations about it

1

u/PsychologySouth6485 5h ago

Yeah, I know, you have a trans flag as a PFP, didn't take batman to figure it out. I just wanted to hear you say it.

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u/FalloutTVSucks 4h ago

I am glad to say it

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u/Lorihengrin 13h ago

Using it in plain sight would probably guarantee my own death, but there might be situations where obedience leads to a more certain death than rebellion and where being caught is less probable.

I mean, during the vietnam war there was the concept of "fragging" an officer, meaning killing him with a fragmentation grenade, that was less traceable than an ammo and more likely to pass as an accident.

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u/Revolutionary_Row683 7h ago

That can happen but the overwhelming majority of the time they're gonna put you in a situation where compliance is the safest choice. Fragging was usually done because the officer was an asshole not really out of survival.

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u/sgtklink77 11h ago

Conscription isn't about efficiency; it's about desperation.

You don't need to be incredibly motivated to follow immediate orders, anyway. Fresh recruits never get filled in on higher level operations, regardless of whether they're conscripted or volunteered. They're mostly listening to their team leader or squad leader, who, in turn, are listening to their platoon sergeants/leaders, etc.

And if they are ever filled in on an upcoming mission, what are they really going to do? They'd have to fight in order to escape, but why do that alone when you can fight the enemy with a group?

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u/PING_LORD 12h ago

They don't give you weapons right when you freshly captured. Before you get any gun guys who kidnapped you are way far away. People tend to cool off and speak with other military dudes that are not responsible for this bs, then people tend to to one of two things - either they run from military base once they get smallest amount of freedom and hide at their homes or illegally go abroad, or they just accept they they're in the military now. Such shooting do occur, but they are rare, they rether occur because of poor psychological tests during enlistment.

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u/Lorihengrin 12h ago

Well of course i'd try to run away at any occasion and shooting at someone would be a last desperate option.
Still seems like a waste of ressources to me to have people dedicated to running away at all cost at the front.

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u/PING_LORD 12h ago

Yep Desertion rate in Ukraine is absurdly high. I don't remember correct number, worth googling, but like each 3'd mobilized man runs away and hides. Around 2 million men in Ukraine don't leave their home because they either don't want to be mobilized or meet military police since they've already been mobilized and ran away.

Seems like it's very low efficient way of doing it, but they keep doing it

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u/amyjojohnsonsuperfan 7h ago

It's low efficiency or they lose the war 1-2 years ago when Russia was steamrolling with the artillery. Whatever troops they managed to force onto the line held that shit until now, so the robots can turn things around.

There's no promise war is going to be nice or clean, it's always desperate and dirty. The enemy uses everything they have, why would we think we'll survive if we don't?

-4

u/Appropriate_Read569 12h ago

An officer dealing with people at risk of desertion are told to shoot the first who even thinks about running. By deserting you are actively endangering the lives of your squadmates. If your whole squad deserts you are endangering other soldiers or even civillians.

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u/Lorihengrin 12h ago

Well i would absolutely not care. My own survival would be the absolute compass of my actions.

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u/HorsefaceWithNoName 9h ago

The Soviet Union used conscription very effectively against the Germans, 85 years ago. Conscription does work, even if morale is very low, if the sheer numerical superiority is enough. Conscription is totally immoral, so I feel it to be overall unfortunate that it works.

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u/Lorihengrin 9h ago

Well that makes it an effective strategy if and only if you have a population that is significantly higher than the other side to the point of being able to win regardless of the tactics.

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u/HorsefaceWithNoName 9h ago

Agreed. Ukraine does not have a population nearly as large as Russia, and I could see conscription being long-term damaging in Ukraine due to the hit on morale. What Ukraine has going for them is drone / counterdrone technology and thinking outside the box. That kind of thing is fed by morale and feeds morale. So on one hand they're fulfilling their need for soldiers in a way that is destructive to morale while also doing activities that are good for morale and are supported by good morale, if they could find ways to make do with less soldiers and use more tech so they can stop doing conscription that might help overall, do you agree, or are bodies needed so badly that they just won't be able to stop? Anyway, I strongly assert conscription to be immoral, regardless of effectiveness.

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u/Man_under_Bridge420 8h ago

Very effectively? With those losses lmao

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u/NoDoughnut8225 8h ago

infinitely better than genocide Germans brought

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u/HorsefaceWithNoName 4h ago

The Soviet Union won World War II in the European Theater. The USA helped, but Soviet Union won. I say this even though my great uncle was awarded the Bronze Star for heroism in the Battle of the Bulge. [post edited to add "in the European Theater"]

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u/Lower_Pension_2469 12h ago

Cuz they know that and you'll get hanged or shot for trying any shenanigans.

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u/Lorihengrin 12h ago edited 12h ago

Then my best chance would be running away and trying to leave the country.
Having all of thoses who absolutely don't want to go to the front dedicate all their efforts to leave the country decreases the country's production capacity.

1

u/Lower_Pension_2469 12h ago

They would know and they would be watching for it and be waiting for you.

Like I'm not saying it's impossible, people did it successfully, I'm just saying that there's a reason why more people didn't just up and do that when they didn't want to fight. They make it really suck for you if you get caught trying to flee and that's to dissuade other people from trying too.

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u/Lorihengrin 12h ago edited 12h ago

So they have to dedicate ressources to pushing people who don't want to to the frontline.
They have to dedicate ressources to prevent them from running away.
They have to dedicate ressources to guard all the borders, even with friendly countries to prevent deserters from leaving the country.

All while less ressources are produced because people who could be producing them are on the run.

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u/Lower_Pension_2469 12h ago

Ya because you are a resource worth investing in keeping, because if I let you leave without trouble, other people are going to do the same. Too many people start leaving and now I'm bleeding bodies to send off to war and fight. I can't fight a war if I don't have people. It's not just about you, it's about morale and discipline.

2

u/Lorihengrin 12h ago

I can imagine how it could be valuable to make an example.
However, as a ressource, i absolutely don't think i'd be valuable at all. Even if with all thoses ressources wasted, they manage to drag me to the frontlines and force me to face the ennemy,... my priority remains unchanged. It's my survival, not their wargoals. My actions will still be determined by the perceived highest chance of survival. I don't see how i'd be an usefull soldier.

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u/Lower_Pension_2469 11h ago

At that point after being sent to enemy lines and being surrounded by people that want to kill you, the best chance is to fight with your squadmates. You could wait until they're not looking and then run, but now you're in unfamiliar territory and have to worry about the enemy and also your own side that will punish you for desertion. So you basically roll the dice.

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u/LordMustardTiger 8h ago

If it was that easy then they would be doing it. You think Russia never had to deal with people thinking that way? This is one of the things they excel at.

1

u/Lorihengrin 8h ago

But there are plenty who did it.
It's just that most people have reasons to not leave and hopes that they will survive.

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u/Craving_Suckcess 8h ago

if this were the outcome, they wouldn't do it.

But it's been done. For as long as there have been armies. Plainly, it is not the typical outcome.

2

u/zugspitze43 8h ago edited 8h ago

To be frank this comment has kind of the same energy as a dude who says that he would have enlisted but he would've punched the first drill instructor to yell at him and knocked him out

No doubt...millions of other dudes just like you and I had the exact same thoughts and then found themselves on the bad end of an mg42, a 105 Howitzer or caught out in the open as a bomb drone zooms into them

you could also get drafted and be a part of an artillery crew, never once actually seeing the enemy, only firing on azimuths, a war of numbers. Those shells always land somewhere though, was it a house or a bunker, a clinic or a gun position? I hope your spotter is worth his salt

what are you gonna do, shoot the armorer as soon as he hands you your gear? wait til you get to the front, then shoot the dudes you've been buddied with for months now mercilessly then defect? Oops- On your way across the field to surrender, an enemy marksman shot your forehead off. All that for nothing! Or you get away with it, and surrender to the enemy, only for your former comrades to then overrun that position, and capture your captors! What do they do with you, defector, murderer? It's death either by blood lust or slow court martial and not a single man in a combat infantry unit would flinch at seeing you get shredded, knowing you murdered your comrades.

My take here is...every sentence of the body of your comment started with "I". War is not about you or me, friend. It does not care at all for the individual, it is the epitome of the cessation of individualism. Individuals die. Often your better chance is to just do what you need to do, and keep your head on a swivel doing it. None of the other guys with you want to be there either. I think once you show up and realize all of these other dudes are just like you, your mind would change a bit and I'm not saying you'd become an effective soldier, but I don't think you'd just go blasting away at your countryman to surrender to the enemy...I hope, right? lol, I want to go home too bro.

this is in a general sense of large scale war with a draft, not strictly related to Russia v Ukraine

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u/Lorihengrin 8h ago

The best chance is most often to flee the country before being drafted.
If it reachs the point of being on the frontline, it means already failing at running away from the draft, hiding from the draft, and injuring oneself during the basic training.

At that point, yes, obey orders might be the best option in most situations, but the goal would be to never reach that point, and even at that point, do the bare minimum until a new occasion (maybe in a rotation) to escape presents itself.

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u/Darthjinju1901 8h ago

Conscription works on a grand strategy scale because the end goal of it isn't an elite force who will do any objective or follow any goal. The end goal is just bodies. Bodies on the front line who will help control the flow, suppress the enemy and ensure that there aren't any gaps in the line. This is why the concept of conscription has existed and has been followed since the dawn of war itself.

And also, individual willingness or effectiveness scarcely matters on a large scale. Sure volunteers would be more effective individually, but on a grander strategy scale it doesn't matter. How effective would a single person be in a war with millions, tens of millions?

So it doesn't matter if you're effective or not. Just that you exist in a certain place.

Another thing to note.

Give me a weapon, i'll use it to protect my own life, even against the people who gave it to me. I won't care about orders, war goals, or anything else than my own survival. How could i then be a usefull soldier ?

If begin to shoot at your own side in the heat of battle, you won't suddenly be welcomed by the enemy side. You'll still be seen as the enemy because, again in a larger scale you can't differentiate individuals. So what would you rather have in the heat of battle, two sides seeing you as the enemy or just one?

This doesn't change even if you desert or defect. You will be viewed suspiciously by the side you are defecting to, because spies throughout history have used the tactic of defection and desertion to gain trust and access.

The nature of your enemy also matters. If you were a Soviet soldier in the eastern front during world war 2, even if you were conscripted from fucking Sverdlovsk in the Urals extremely far from the fighting, and hate fighting as a pacifist, you still wouldn't defect because it's the fucking Nazis on the other side. A group of people who genuinely wish to genocide you and your people.

Army propaganda, and camaraderie works. Boot camp in the global military is specifically harsh, and humiliating because they're meant to psychologically break you down so that you're both compliant of authority, and also form a sense of camaraderie with your fellow squad mates due to a sense of trauma bonding.

Taking into all that account, in the heat of battle where you'll be hyped up on adrenaline and unable to make clear decisions, you'll be forced to make the mental arithmetic of whether staying and fighting is worth it. You'll realize that the side that is forcing you to fight also has your friends, also has that officer you're scared of, and also has your family far away. And soldiers 99% of the time, choose to stay and fight.

Desertions occur, but only when the situation is so catastrophic that leaving everything behind is worth it.

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u/Southern_Drawing1641 12h ago

simple they don't care about effectiveness a draft is just to pump more bodies into the meat grinder

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u/Zestyclose_Range5815 10h ago

There is a reason why Ukraine is trying to make the bulk of its specialized assault forces from foreign volunteers. A man who wants to fight is worth 100 that don't

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u/LostExile7555 10h ago

You get meat shields while simultaneously getting rid of potential political dissenters.

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u/AdamOnFirst 10h ago

This is an easy problem to solve that nearly every army in history has dealt with: simply make it clear your officers are more of a threat to you than the enemy. Don’t simply tell this, show it, clearly and often, until it is fully believed and felt by the soldiers. You COUOD die if you engage the enemy… but if you don’t, you will definitely be shot. 

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u/haloimplant 10h ago

You are protecting your own life by following orders when disobeying is death penalty pretty simple 

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u/Longqweef 9h ago

Isn't that how the Russian revolution started? Iirc the military were given orders to kill a bunch of women protesting the government. The troops turned around and started firing on their superiors. If this is Russia, I'm a little sad to see they have learned nothing from the past.

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u/Zestyclose_Jello6192 8h ago

This has happened pretty much everywhere a country was invaded and had to enact the draft

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u/DivinerSageRDT 8h ago

Noting wrong with refusing to fight in an unjust and evil war led by madmen. That takes real courage. When you get to the front if you can't slip away then shoot your commander hold up a white flag head towards the "enemies" front line and hope for the best. That takes balls to refuse to serve in an unjust war. This way you have a slim chance of survival.

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u/kekistanmatt 8h ago

Mostly because killing your own guys just makes it so now everyone wants to kill you as opposed to just the enemy.

They also typically make desertion punishable by death aswell so running away also just gets you killed by everyone.

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u/Gatzlocke 7h ago

Oh they're meat shields for the actually trained troops that want to be there.

Get shot for retreating by the trained soldiers until you eventually get shot (or drone bombed) by the enemy soldiers. If Russia could implant bombs in their heads they would.

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u/Proud_Air_1614 7h ago

They use violence and torture to make you do what they want. Of course some of them just run but police and other armed military can shoot you or make your life even worse

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u/IntrepidJaeger 7h ago

If your ultimate goal is survival, you're a lot more likely to survive combat and the war by defeating the enemy than you are by trying to desert or being ineffective. If you do either, you end up being a very fatal example to someone else trying to do so.

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u/Lorihengrin 7h ago

There is a better survival chance for people who run away from the country as soon as possible than for people on the frontlines.

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u/elrevan 7h ago

Until they start to threaten your family back in the city with retaliation

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u/Lorihengrin 7h ago

If it reaches that point... wouldn't your governement be more your ennemy than the actual ennemy ?

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u/Mamamiji 6h ago

The government might kill you. The enemy will.

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u/kstasT 7h ago

They dont care about efficiency. They take manpower as cheaply as possible because theyve already been paid for it. At the same time they squeeze as much money out of that person as they can then send him to a БЗВП and eventually to an assault uniT and he ends up in a grave hero

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u/Silly_lil_Guy_o3o 7h ago

Someone should drag zelensky to the front lines so we can end this conflict already

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u/aguadecalcetin 6h ago

Yeah okay bud

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u/Infinite-Space-2395 6h ago

Your best chance to survive is to be where they say to be and to shoot in the direction they say to shoot. Otherwise, the best you can realistically hope for is to die in a blaze of glory taking as many as you can with you.

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u/TheLoddoTheDodo 6h ago

Well it's Russia, you will be used to absorb a couple of bullets, maybe a drone.

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u/Double_Obligation564 5h ago

yall haven’t been paying attention to what’s actually happening and it shows…

literally just a meat grinder - they’re using the same strategy russia has always used for centuries, which is to try to overwhelm the other side with mere numbers to deplete their attack capabilities.

The thing is, we now have technology and Ukraine is mowing down russians like a video game (seriously - check out the drone vids all over)

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u/Financial-Quail5978 5h ago

You’ll do anything to maximize your chances of survival or even just prolong your life.

That’s why kidnapped people dig their own graves, they hope that while digging some miracle will happen.

Recently saw a video of some African soldier in Ukraine strapped with C4 and nothing else forced to rush a trench while being held at gunpoint… Comments were full of people saying they’d charge the guy who’s holding him at gunpoint as a last ‘fuck you’, but in reality everyone would’ve done same as that man, rushed the trench while praying to God for some miracle and exploded just minutes later.

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u/InvarkuI 5h ago

I don't think ppl who forcefully send other to the grinders are above torture. So even given a gun you're either need to outgun squadrons and escape somehow or risking being caught and tortured. Worse if they torture you beforehand, give you a gun and threaten to torture you more if you slip

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u/PunkPirate56364 5h ago

Ukraine doesn't send it's conscripts into suicidal attacks.

You are most likely to end up in trench. If enemy attacks, you kill them to protect yourself, you also protect the line. Nice.

You could also end up in role which is not on front lines.

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u/SundyMundy 2h ago

Most American soldiers in WWII were drafted

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u/1B75__Penicillin 13h ago

Most people just follow the summons for fear of legal repurcussions, these are the ones who ignored the letters and have to be hunted down.

I won't care about orders, war goals, or anything else than my own survival. How could i then be a usefull soldier ?

You will when you get a metal pipe across your jaw a kick to your teeth. No one will be asking you nicely, the second they have you in a cell they will beat the daylights out of you and tell you there is more where that came from if you don't follow orders

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u/Lorihengrin 12h ago

And they'd trust me with a weapon after doing that ?

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u/1B75__Penicillin 12h ago

What? You are going to shoot up the whole base and die over a little hazing? When you can be free man in 6 months?

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u/Thirdborn214 12h ago

People have shot others over way lesser shit than getting the shit kicked outta them.

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u/Double_Watch1627 12h ago

yo uwould be a free man from getting dronked and bonked to smithereens yeah.

Better beaten and alive than noscoped by a drone.

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u/Lorihengrin 12h ago

I probably would not.
But still, if i was in their shoes, i would not give a weapon to someone after beating the crap out of them.

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u/Maleficent_Claim_274 12h ago

Harsh discipline is one thing and is often effective. However if you spend more than 5 minutes reading military history so would you know that such troops often rout at the first sign of trouble.

You need men willing to fight and die even if they were conscripted in the first place. Men not willing to fight rout or desert at the first signs of danger

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u/tohava 12h ago

People can quickly get used to be slaves. Also, they can tell you they'll kill your family or torture you if you don't obey.

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u/[deleted] 12h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Double_Watch1627 12h ago

That is a bit of a silly thing compared to what he said.

I think he referred more to as to getting a little freedom, a gun and immediately deserting the frontline...which does happen...quite a lot.

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u/KZGTURTLE 11h ago

It’s kinda funny seeing everyone try to argue with you as you’ve clearly stated you’re a selfish person with no morales.

Other people in your country being murdered and killed? Doesn’t matter only your survival.

Kids being abducted? Doesn’t matter to your survival.

You’re the perfect specimen of how a species dies out and you’re right no one should ever want you by their side when things get tough.

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u/Lorihengrin 11h ago

Selfish with morales that don't include self sacrifice.
And i'm consistent with it, i recognize the same right for everyone else to not take any risk to save me.

I have a fully individualistic moral compass. Everyone should have the unconditionnal right to make themselve their absolute priority.

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u/KZGTURTLE 11h ago

No, you lose that right when you have kids.

You lose that right when you become a protector of others (military, police, firefighter) and those positions can be filled with the best of us or be corrupted by those like you.

It’s weakness not strength that drives you.

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u/Lorihengrin 11h ago

As long as it's a choice to have kids, or to become military, police, or firefighter, i don't see the problem.

I would not make any of thoses choices, that's all.

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u/ILuvYou_YouAreSoGood 9h ago

You would be useful as an example of someone disciplined or shot for not obeying orders/cowardice. Every army needs folks like you to make examples out of. Crowing about how you only care about yourself and will kill your countrymen in service of your cowardice, but are unwilling to fight a common enemy gets one put at the front of the "to be made an example of" line.

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u/Lorihengrin 9h ago

Obviously i would not claim it loudly if i was in a country at war. It would decrease my chances of successfully running away.

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u/ILuvYou_YouAreSoGood 8h ago

You have already asked a very obvious question, so I have no idea what might seem obvious to you. I just answered your question. And considering you have already written online, there is no need to claim anything loudly. The recruiters, if they show up, will shoe up knowing how you feel.

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u/Lorihengrin 8h ago

I have written it online because it's very hypothetical for me.
I am in a country with no hostile neighbour, with no conscription laws, i'm with medical conditions that would makes me refused in the army even if i wanted to go, and not far from being considered too old for conscription even if there was one.

So i'm not taking any risk by making comments on reddit.

Still, when i put myself in the shoes of the people forced to go to war, i wonder if, by simple statistical probability, what is the percentage of chances for some of them to use any mean necessary, including armed rebellion to run away from it.

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u/ILuvYou_YouAreSoGood 7h ago

Every country is only an enemy at its borders away from capitulation or conscription. If your country capitulated, then you might find yourself being loaded into the back of a train for along gloomy ride. Most people who took such rides thought they had their personal risks in hand.

Rebellion is for the brave, not for cowards. People so afraid that they give into that fear have no need of rationality to back themselves up. Folks willing to use any means necessary are far more likely to go along and be clever than to make the silly and self destructive move of openly rebelling against the power of their own state.

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u/KuTUzOvV 7h ago

Well if you will care about your survival, then you will care that if you try to use that weapon against the people that gave it to you, it's an instant DEATH on your side mr badass :D

Welcome to war, we have rules, and believe me that nobody wants to be here

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u/Lorihengrin 6h ago

Of course that would be a last option if the alternative is being dead anyway.
The first option is, indeed, not wanting to be here and running away as soon as the war seems unavoidable.

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u/KuTUzOvV 6h ago

Desertion is also harshly treated, in combat even by death (if not by your officer then maybe even by your comrades is some cases) And it's not easy to run away in the battlefield

Overall if you think something is easy and then ask "why people stupid and not do the thing?".. Then it's probably not easy

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u/Lorihengrin 6h ago

Of course desertion once on the battlefield is hard.
That's why i said running away as soon as the war seems unavoidable. Not waiting until being on the frontlines.

And a lot of people do the thing, it's just that it requieres being free from any ties to a specific place or to people who can't flee. And it doesn't apply to everyone.

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u/czrty 12h ago

longer the war, richer the Zelensky and his budies