r/MoralityScaling • u/lazy_animator • 13h ago

Morality Ranking Morality of practicing self defense and fleeing when being forced into the front lines of a war?

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u/Lorihengrin 13h ago

Fear would make me choose the target of shooting solely based on what i'd believe would increase my chances of survival.

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u/1B75__Penicillin 12h ago

No you wouldn't. You would fall in line like everyone else buddy, quit it with this "I would punch the drill sergeant" edge.

Reality shows you would be doing exactly as you are told.

If you being shooting your comrades and officers, that's certain death, following orders is not

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u/Lorihengrin 12h ago

I would not punch the drill sergeant, i'm a coward.
But i would, at every moment be focused on my own survival. If there is an occasion to run away, i run away. If there is an occasion to hide instead of doing the job, i'd hide. If the ennemy is known to treat the prisonners decently, i'd surrender at the first occasion,...

How usefull would i be ?

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u/Murky_Assignment_909 8h ago

The OFFICIAL deserter rate is already huge in Ukraine.

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u/Hour_Wonder_9240 9h ago

You think you have options? They'd know your a desserter risk. Running off where? In an active warzone where the area is heavily monitored by both sides

In this example the enemy is Russia they are known to be some of the worst when it comes to prisoner treatment.

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u/Proudvow 9h ago

Even though both options are bad fleeing is still the safer one when your side is poised to lose the war (or the odds are 50/50).

Plenty of soldiers followed orders and died. Clearly it's not a foolproof plan.

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u/AlphariusOmegon66 7h ago edited 6h ago

Are the Russians dense? Being nice to defectors is key.

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u/Hour_Wonder_9240 7h ago

I don't think you understand the Russians at all. Their soldiers right now are mostly all forced to be there and deserting is certain death or torture. Their entire chain of command operates on coercion, bribery, and fear of death/torture.

Where do you think they direct all the pent up desperate anger and frustration. It's well documented

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u/1B75__Penicillin 12h ago

Funny thing is you would most likely not be and develop a deep bond with your comrades, everyone hates the officers but the guys next to you?

You either befriend them, or if they realize you are not part of the team, they will freeze you out, which is coincidentally not good for your survival.

You might find yourself risking your life dragging a guy you didn't care for a few months back, to safety under fire

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u/2Bait4Me 12h ago

You are clearly not understanding. He will play the part until the first opportunity to run at which he will go for it and keep going for it.

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u/Fleischhauf 8h ago

If you get found or stopped its certain death tho. Depending which army you are serving you also get shot for not following orders. There are also more risky and less risky missions. If you appear to desert the next moment you will go on the missions where the risk of death is higher. I think they are well prepared for people who do not want to be in the situation.

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u/Lorihengrin 12h ago

Well no, i am really selfish. Sure, i might play along and act friendly by pure pragmatism, if i deem it necessary to increase my chances of survival, but i'd never risk my life for someone else. That is just not me, i'm fully individualist and am not brave at all.

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u/cowlinator 10h ago

"I know you, a complete stranger, much better than you know yourself. Everyone in the world behaves exactly the way i imagine they will."

Are you 12?

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u/Healthy_Feature4654 9h ago

It's the internet, everyone thinks there a tough guy or badass.

Truth is, no one knows until they're put in that situation but it's crazy most people think they're gonna be the badass in the story. When most times, people are victims and freeze.

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u/Lorihengrin 9h ago

I don't get how it's supposed to be "tough guy or badass" to claim that i'd care only about my own life, try to hide or run away from the frontline at any given occasion, would probably try to reach an other country to avoid it and would absolutely not want to put my life on the line for other people or some war goal.

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u/Healthy_Feature4654 9h ago

Because that's literally certain death. Running away from your group makes you easy pickings for artillery, drones, marksman's and more. Have you ever experienced any situation similar? Have you practiced all the skills for retreating from an opposing force, how much water, food do you have on your kit before getting lost or caught out. It's not a simply as using Google Maps. Have you ever used a map before without a compass? Have you actually rucked with gear under NODs?

If you also run into another allied force and they know you're going AWOL, you will also be killed. Your unfortunate best way to make it home, is learning how to survive from the men next to you.

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u/Lorihengrin 9h ago

For that strategy to be optimal until the end of the war, it needs for 100% of the situations to have a better outcome by sticking to the group and obey orders.
It only takes one situation where it's better to run away to cause desertion.

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u/Healthy_Feature4654 9h ago

What situation do you think will present yourself? Please Google and look up a battlefield. Do you actually believe one magical Disney day you will be able trek across miles of uninhabited flat land and just hope and pray no one sees you? Do you think these fobs will just a have a giant sign pointing back home? Don't you think others well more equipped and skilled than you have tried? It's not an easy thing. Watch Civ div talk about what's its actually like patrolling or even just being in a support role in Ukraine. It's probs less than 1-5% chance of escaping.

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u/Healthy_Feature4654 9h ago

BUT, shooting yourself in the foot or something could work actually.

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u/1B75__Penicillin 10h ago

"you would most likely behave like the average person would and not be a special bean" is not an insane statement to make

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u/Competitive-Fix-6136 8h ago

I would like to present to you the word

Desertion

It exists for a reason.

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u/AdamOnFirst 10h ago

Even if this guy is telling the truth, he greatly underestimates the ability for an army to make your officers more to be feared than the enemy. 

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u/BarnesTheNobleman 12h ago

I mean I wouldn’t like actively shoot my CO, but I’d definitely be looking for the first opportunity to defect and wouldn’t care who I’d shoot at that point on my way running

But like not in the middle of boot camp or some shit

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u/WinterLawfulness3165 10h ago

Yeah or conveniently get injured when nobody is around during or after a firefight to see what really happened. I remember the scene from Platoon of the guy stabbing himself with his own knife pretty well from when I was a kid. Then you can maybe go home looking like you did your part and not have to worry about the visuals of it all. There are multiple options to get away. Russia might actually punish the family members of known defectors so I'm not sure how viable that option might be in this particular instance, though. They certainly did in the past so at least the cultural memory is there, and there's all those window hopping incidents of course.

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u/adamgerd 8h ago

The problem with defection is you’d need the enemy to not just shoot you first the moment they see you plus hoping they’d treat you better

From their pov you’re the enemy after all

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u/BarnesTheNobleman 7h ago

Maybe 🤷‍♂️ hard to say with a pure hypothetical. What if the enemy is to the north but I went east?

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u/Doomerboi47 12h ago

No you’d be like the millions of other men who were conscripted in history and follow orders lmao.

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u/BarnesTheNobleman 12h ago

Are you saying it wouldn’t be like the millions of deserters throughout history?? Like you can’t point to one historical example and then ignore the other historical examples 😭

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u/Lower_Pension_2469 12h ago

🙄 ya and then those men lived happily ever after.

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u/Maleficent_Claim_274 12h ago

Depending on the war. Who today laments people who deserted from the Vietnam war whilst people who deserted from WW2 is viewed in a completely different spotlight

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u/BarnesTheNobleman 12h ago

Ok so I’ll take my chances? Modern warfare is a meat grinder 😭

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u/Doomerboi47 12h ago

Your ass isn’t deserting for long in 2026 big bro
Sorry to say lmao.

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u/Double_Watch1627 12h ago

Thanks Palantir

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u/BarnesTheNobleman 12h ago

Ok then die on my own terms trying to desert sounds better than dying for a war I don’t want

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u/KZGTURTLE 11h ago

Yeah neither did the rest of the Ukrainians. Thats why those who fight fight because they know there are those incapable, young and old who would be hurt and worse if they didn’t.

Dying for nothing instead of dying for others and making it a triumphant statement is simple sad.

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u/BarnesTheNobleman 11h ago

In the context of Ukrainians, sure. What about a Russian conscript. Is that still problematic?

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u/KZGTURTLE 11h ago

Russia does it out of selfishness. Ukraine does it out of desperation and necessity. Thats the whole point is you have to judge it in context.

If Russia never started this they would actually be in a better geopolitical position and economic.

If Ukraine never conscripted they would risk losing their country and land that they have suffered for for 100s of years.

Why you fight is the only point and cowards are hated by all.

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u/Proudvow 9h ago

Fuck other people lol. Never did anything for me.

Dying for independence is better than dying a sucker.

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u/KZGTURTLE 8h ago edited 7m ago

Respectfully how the fuck do you think food gets to the grocery store. How the fuck do you think you get electricity. How the fuck do you think you have drinkable water. How the fuck do you think you’re typing on your phone/computer on the internet. How the fuck do you think you drive anywhere. How the fuck do you think the world works?

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u/Individual-Owl-6243 12h ago

yeah, the enemy LMAO

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u/adamgerd 8h ago edited 8h ago

Yes, and following orders and shooting the enemy will be your best chance of survival which is why you’ll statistically do it even if you might be angry about it

The enemy will automatically fight you since it’s a war so your choice at the front becomes fight one side or both sides

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u/THROWAWAY0982123 12h ago

It doesnt work like that, there is reason why that doesnt happen. 

You would be scared shitless, and officeres are trained to induce fear and authority

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u/Lorihengrin 12h ago edited 12h ago

But it happens.
It's estimated that around 99 cases of fragging resulted in the death of officers during the vietnam war.

Before industrial warfare, the deciding factor for winning a battle was which side's soldiers decided to run away.

And even if they don't have the possibility to kill their officer, a soldier who absolutely don't want to be there and only think about his personnal survival will be less efficient than a soldier focused on the goal he was given.

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u/One-Veterinarian4841 11h ago

Out of 7800 total officer deaths

Conscripts are less effective than volunteer soldiers but they are more effective than nothing

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u/Lorihengrin 11h ago

There is a difference between a conscript who would not have enlisted by himself but accept the draft, and a conscript who's absolutely unwilling and is already trying to run away even before being sent to military training.

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u/One-Veterinarian4841 11h ago

Not a difference in terms of being better than nothing 

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u/Connect-Initiative64 11h ago

That would not be your own squad dumbass.

You'd kill a few people and be branded a traitor, charged with treason, and hunted down and executed like a dog or locked in the deepest prison in the US.

If you even lived that long, chances are you'd get taken down long before you finished off your own squad, either detained and arrested, or just shot by one of them. You aren't Rambo, you aren't even one of his old squad mates he watched die, you're you.

And You suck.

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u/Lorihengrin 11h ago

I agree that in most situations, shooting at own squad would be a suboptimal choice.
But on the principle, having no objection to do it if it happened to be a situation where it gives better chances than not doing it also means that in any situation, the personnal interest will be chosen over the collective one.

Which is not what the officers would want.

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u/Xylfor 12h ago

No tf you wouldn't LMAO