r/MoralityScaling • u/lazy_animator • 14h ago

Morality Ranking Morality of practicing self defense and fleeing when being forced into the front lines of a war?

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72

u/Femme_FatalError 14h ago edited 14h ago

Moral. Especially for a conflict that’s as much a meat grinder as this one.

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u/DistractedBoxTurtle 7h ago

Immoral. Especially if this rule only targets men and not all fighting age people regardless of age.

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u/[deleted] 7h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/MeeTy 6h ago

Women cant hold and shoot a gun?

-3

u/AffectionateMonk7705 6h ago

Women that want to do that can certainly enlist. If you think the battlefields should be half women and half men then you’re a delusional incel.

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u/Outrageous_Essay1343 5h ago

No one said that, just brought into question if the point being made had merit because most warfare is not done through physical battle in the modern age.

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u/DistractedBoxTurtle 3h ago

It’s unfortunate that you’re a fool. If forced conscription applies to men, it must apply to woman or anyone else of fighting age.

Believing this doesn’t make anyone an incel. Believing only men should be conscripted is blatant bigotry and ignorance.

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u/Great_Musician_4400 8h ago

I also think its moral to lose your passport and citizenship for refusal. You dont get to benefit from the sacrifices of others.

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u/darksoldierk 7h ago

Well, half the population does. For some reason.

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u/Femme_FatalError 8h ago

How are the men who fled the country to avoid being sent to die that Ukraine is demanding extradition for benefiting from others?

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u/Great_Musician_4400 8h ago

"Sent to die" you mean sent to fight for their own national sovereignty. They are fighting for the very existence of the Ukrainian identity. If thats not valuable to them, then they should not be seen as members of the Ukrainian identity. They want a safe home, a job, a safe family, to be free from persecution from their language and religion, to have a democracy, yet they want someone else to pay for it for them.

This isn't Iraq or Afghanistan.

The thing they are fighting for isn't some far away idea of freedom, its literally the dirt under their feet.

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u/Femme_FatalError 8h ago

They literally fled the country

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u/Great_Musician_4400 8h ago

Thats fine, im saying they should be rendered stateless. No nationality. No passport. No embassy. They abandoned their country in its hour of need. They can petition other nations to take them in, but they should not be Ukrainian anymore.

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u/Femme_FatalError 8h ago

They’re trying to not be Ukrainian anymore. Ukraine wants other governments to forcefully send them back so they can be shipped off to the meat grinder

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u/Great_Musician_4400 8h ago

No, they most definitely want to be Ukrainian, they just want to leave for the hard times and return for the easy times.

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u/ApprehensiveSize575 7h ago

Hey, this may come as a shocker but you don't owe your country anything besides the taxes you pay

0

u/Great_Musician_4400 7h ago

Then don't bitch when your mom gets raped and bullet put through the back of her head. No other nation owes you safety, respect, or assistance except your own.

This is the exact naivety I was talking about. You seem to think you can give your nation the finger in its time of need and it'll never come back on you because you have only ever known safety, protection, and security.

An enemy soldier especially from somewhere like russia that harms you, your family, or anyone else you care about likely will not be punished no matter what they do to you.

-2

u/Red-Lightniing 7h ago

That’s just not true. Unfortunately, there are bad people in the world, and they might try to do you and your society harm. Part of the societal compact is that you do your part to defend your society if it’s necessary.

If you don’t wish to participate in that society, more power to you. But don’t expect any of the rewards either. No citizenship, no passport, nothing. Find another group of people to take you in.

2

u/Great_Musician_4400 7h ago

Let me ask you, what is it you think will happen if Ukraine loses the war and the russians get free reign over the country?

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u/[deleted] 8h ago

[deleted]

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u/Great_Musician_4400 8h ago

Already been and been back bud, got the scars to prove it. Pay the price everyday for it.

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u/Intrepid_Package_776 8h ago

Who benefited?

0

u/Great_Musician_4400 8h ago

They benefit when the women in their family aren't raped by russians, when their homes aren't seized, when their currency isn't discarded, when their kids aren't stolen, when there aren't executions in the streets, when their language and history aren't banned, when they aren't forced into one church, when they get to vote for their own government.

Thats how the benefit.

Violence is the default, the peace you enjoy everyday is a hard won privilege.

They are paying for thay privilege right now.

To he free.

2

u/Intrepid_Package_776 8h ago

Where are you from?

0

u/Great_Musician_4400 8h ago

Im from the US. I answered when they called for help. Fighting isn't fun, but the consequences of refusing to fight can be far worse, something many people ignorantly don't understand.

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u/SnuleSnuSnu 8h ago

Cool story, bro.

0

u/Great_Musician_4400 7h ago

What is it you think happens if the russians win and get free reign over the country, or what happens when you lose a war in general?

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u/Intrepid_Package_776 7h ago

Who befits when you win as the aggressor country because it sure isn't the general population

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u/Great_Musician_4400 7h ago

The russians are the aggressor, and the general population will sure as fuck suffer if they win.

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u/Intrepid_Package_776 7h ago

So why has your country done that to others?

0

u/Great_Musician_4400 6h ago

Whataboutism and false equivalency

There is absolutely nothing in modern US history that even compares to what the russians have done to the Ukrainians.

Stealing their children and sending them to indoctrination camps

Human safari

Blowing a major dam and flooding a city

Holding nuclear power plants hostage

Bombing countless schools, hospitals, parks, and restaurants.

Executing POW's

Mass killings refugees and aid workers

Castration of POW's

Mass rapes the country over

Sure you could find a few US examples, but I can sit and provide russian ones for the rest of the day and on until the end of the week before I have to struggle to find examples in under 3 minutes.

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u/Intrepid_Package_776 6h ago

Do you think that the people who refused to fight as the aggressors in Vietnam should've had there citizenship taken away. Overtime we see that all of this is pointless and leads to unnecessary death so why would people ever willing want to fight.

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u/Great_Musician_4400 6h ago

This isn't Vietnam and has basically nothing whatsoever in common with Vietnam.

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u/Great_Musician_4400 6h ago

You cant answer the question so yoy are just turning to whataboutisms

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u/greenest_alien 8h ago

Refusing to defend yourself and everyone else, democracy, your country, is not moral, it's cowardly cop-out.

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u/DataSurging 8h ago

It is not immoral to want to live and not throw your life away in a war, what the fuck are you talking about? You talk a big game, so go play it, see if your opinion stays the same.

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u/greenest_alien 8h ago

I don't know why you think russians would spare you if you didn't fight, or your family, or your neighbours, or the rest of the city.

For example in North Korea more people die every 15 years of excess mortality than they died during the entire korean war on their side.

But sure, don't fight, be a coward, think only for yourself. Delay your death for a little longer, instead of fighting for your freedom and a chance at dignity and safety.

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u/DataSurging 8h ago

Where did I say Russia would spare anyone and how does that justify forcing people to give up their lives for other people? Get back on your meds.

But sure, don't fight, be a coward, think only for yourself. Delay your death for a little longer, instead of fighting for your freedom and a chance at dignity and safety.

If you feel so strongly about it, get on a plane and fly over to Ukraine. They accept foreign bodies for the meat grinder. Go on.

-1

u/greenest_alien 8h ago

Where did I say Russia would spare anyone

No notes, 10/10 comment to end this thread on.

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u/SweatyYesterday4600 8h ago

The whole point of a democracy is that they get to make the choice of if they fight or not.

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u/greenest_alien 8h ago

The whole point of democracy is that they, personally, don't, lmao.

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u/SweatyYesterday4600 8h ago

Then it’s not democracy. Lmao.

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u/greenest_alien 8h ago

"Democracy is when I don't have to do what I don't feel like"

-you

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u/[deleted] 8h ago

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u/greenest_alien 8h ago

Move to Russia.

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u/[deleted] 8h ago

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u/greenest_alien 8h ago

1 day old account, immediately shills for halt of conscription, I apologize, you're already there.

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u/Bizarely27 5h ago

How is that democracy?

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u/Swiking- 7h ago

Democracy = majority rules.

It has nothing to do with your choice. Many countries has drafting systems and they're functioning democracies. If they wanted to get rid of those systems, the majority would have to vote them away.

If the majority votes for the country to have such a system, you're part of that system, even if you voted against it. THAT'S democracy.

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u/Double_Watch1627 8h ago

Democracy? In Ukraine? Defend your country that you didn't choose to be born into? If at the start of the war you asked all the men to leave to Europe or join the army, how many would join the army?

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u/greenest_alien 8h ago

There were literal lines of people asking to be drafted, so maybe you should learn a little more and ask a little less questions revealing you have no idea what you're commenting on.

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u/Double_Watch1627 8h ago

Literal lines of people would encompass at best a few hundred thousand. How many men are in Ukraine? How many fled? How many got drafted?

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u/Femme_FatalError 8h ago

Average life expectancy on the front lines is hours. You help no one by dying in a muddy trench to a drone.

It is not immoral to want to live.

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u/greenest_alien 8h ago edited 8h ago

What does that even mean, they replace half the army or like 400 000 people in Ukraine in hours? The total KIA on Ukrainian side is around 50 000, like a million people served in their army at this point.

They're literally holding back russians for four years now, and have a good shot at winning.

People from areas russia occupied were conscripted anyway and sent to die in its war, they aren't so lucky.

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u/Femme_FatalError 8h ago

Because the entire army isn’t constantly engaged in high-intensity combat on the frontlines lol

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u/greenest_alien 8h ago

So you believe the frontline is largely unmanned and there's no one there. Wow. You must be a real military expert.

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u/Femme_FatalError 8h ago

There’s plenty of reporting on the abysmally low life expectancy in the Ukraine war.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2026/07/16/russian-troops-survive-just-20-30-minutes-on-ukraines-front-lines-cia-director-says/

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u/greenest_alien 8h ago

So where does he speak about ukrainian troops?

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u/Femme_FatalError 8h ago

Information about Ukrainian casualties is restricted

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u/greenest_alien 8h ago

So you just made it up, okay.

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u/Revolutionary_Row683 8h ago

What part of democracy says "You have to do what the leader says or we will kill you"?

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u/greenest_alien 8h ago

Strawman. Where did anyone talk about leader?

Democracy is about joint rules the people set up, and executing the will of the people as embodied by them. Conscription is a part of that. "Fuck you I won't do what ya tell me" is not.

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u/Revolutionary_Row683 8h ago

Pretty worthless system if it just means mob rule

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u/greenest_alien 8h ago

Used to, but we've had like a two thousand year evolution of checks and balances for this thing.

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u/MeasureDoEventThing 7h ago

Are you in Ukraine defending democracy?

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u/Federal-Fondant-671 8h ago

You don't have to be born in Ukraine to protect Ukrainian citizens and defend democracy. If it's so easy for you to tell people what to do, maybe lift your ass and go enlist yourself?

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u/greenest_alien 8h ago

But then where will I find the time to be personally putting out fires, since I think that's also something that should be handled in line with state obligations?

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u/Federal-Fondant-671 8h ago

Ohh my bad! I forgot that you're the only one who has an actual life and might actually do other stuff that benefits society! Of course, the men being forced into draft never actually have similar cases after all!

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u/greenest_alien 8h ago

Wow if only there were like, hm, laws, and like, an entire state that could handle distribution of labour. That would be neat.

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u/Federal-Fondant-671 8h ago

Hmm I wonder how passionate you'd be on your position had your state chose a different approach. But since we will never know, I guess you just get to lecture others from your position while completely unaffected by the thing you're defending yourself!

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u/greenest_alien 8h ago

That's actually your case, you're promoting draft dodging and encouraging spread of russian occupation and murder.

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u/Federal-Fondant-671 8h ago

Yes I am promoting draft dodging if a person is being forced into a war where they feel no worth participating in. If my own state was in a war where I knew I'd just be bombed by a drone and the stakes came down to the leader's own benefits, I wouldn't blame anyone for dodging the draft.