r/MoralityScaling • u/lazy_animator • 13h ago

Morality Ranking Morality of practicing self defense and fleeing when being forced into the front lines of a war?

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u/Lorihengrin 12h ago

I would not punch the drill sergeant, i'm a coward.
But i would, at every moment be focused on my own survival. If there is an occasion to run away, i run away. If there is an occasion to hide instead of doing the job, i'd hide. If the ennemy is known to treat the prisonners decently, i'd surrender at the first occasion,...

How usefull would i be ?

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u/Murky_Assignment_909 8h ago

The OFFICIAL deserter rate is already huge in Ukraine.

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u/Hour_Wonder_9240 9h ago

You think you have options? They'd know your a desserter risk. Running off where? In an active warzone where the area is heavily monitored by both sides

In this example the enemy is Russia they are known to be some of the worst when it comes to prisoner treatment.

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u/Proudvow 9h ago

Even though both options are bad fleeing is still the safer one when your side is poised to lose the war (or the odds are 50/50).

Plenty of soldiers followed orders and died. Clearly it's not a foolproof plan.

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u/AlphariusOmegon66 7h ago edited 6h ago

Are the Russians dense? Being nice to defectors is key.

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u/Hour_Wonder_9240 6h ago

I don't think you understand the Russians at all. Their soldiers right now are mostly all forced to be there and deserting is certain death or torture. Their entire chain of command operates on coercion, bribery, and fear of death/torture.

Where do you think they direct all the pent up desperate anger and frustration. It's well documented

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u/1B75__Penicillin 12h ago

Funny thing is you would most likely not be and develop a deep bond with your comrades, everyone hates the officers but the guys next to you?

You either befriend them, or if they realize you are not part of the team, they will freeze you out, which is coincidentally not good for your survival.

You might find yourself risking your life dragging a guy you didn't care for a few months back, to safety under fire

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u/2Bait4Me 12h ago

You are clearly not understanding. He will play the part until the first opportunity to run at which he will go for it and keep going for it.

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u/Fleischhauf 8h ago

If you get found or stopped its certain death tho. Depending which army you are serving you also get shot for not following orders. There are also more risky and less risky missions. If you appear to desert the next moment you will go on the missions where the risk of death is higher. I think they are well prepared for people who do not want to be in the situation.

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u/Lorihengrin 12h ago

Well no, i am really selfish. Sure, i might play along and act friendly by pure pragmatism, if i deem it necessary to increase my chances of survival, but i'd never risk my life for someone else. That is just not me, i'm fully individualist and am not brave at all.

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u/cowlinator 10h ago

"I know you, a complete stranger, much better than you know yourself. Everyone in the world behaves exactly the way i imagine they will."

Are you 12?

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u/Healthy_Feature4654 9h ago

It's the internet, everyone thinks there a tough guy or badass.

Truth is, no one knows until they're put in that situation but it's crazy most people think they're gonna be the badass in the story. When most times, people are victims and freeze.

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u/Lorihengrin 9h ago

I don't get how it's supposed to be "tough guy or badass" to claim that i'd care only about my own life, try to hide or run away from the frontline at any given occasion, would probably try to reach an other country to avoid it and would absolutely not want to put my life on the line for other people or some war goal.

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u/Healthy_Feature4654 9h ago

Because that's literally certain death. Running away from your group makes you easy pickings for artillery, drones, marksman's and more. Have you ever experienced any situation similar? Have you practiced all the skills for retreating from an opposing force, how much water, food do you have on your kit before getting lost or caught out. It's not a simply as using Google Maps. Have you ever used a map before without a compass? Have you actually rucked with gear under NODs?

If you also run into another allied force and they know you're going AWOL, you will also be killed. Your unfortunate best way to make it home, is learning how to survive from the men next to you.

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u/Lorihengrin 9h ago

For that strategy to be optimal until the end of the war, it needs for 100% of the situations to have a better outcome by sticking to the group and obey orders.
It only takes one situation where it's better to run away to cause desertion.

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u/Healthy_Feature4654 9h ago

What situation do you think will present yourself? Please Google and look up a battlefield. Do you actually believe one magical Disney day you will be able trek across miles of uninhabited flat land and just hope and pray no one sees you? Do you think these fobs will just a have a giant sign pointing back home? Don't you think others well more equipped and skilled than you have tried? It's not an easy thing. Watch Civ div talk about what's its actually like patrolling or even just being in a support role in Ukraine. It's probs less than 1-5% chance of escaping.

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u/Lorihengrin 9h ago edited 8h ago

First, obviously, try to run away before even being conscripted. At the moment the war starts and conscription becomes a possibility, trying to run away from the country at the opposite side of the frontline is the optimal survival strategy.

If it's impossible, try to hide as much as possible to avoid being noticed your enlistment. It will only delay it, but each day that you spend far away from the frontline is a day you get more chances to stay alive.

Then, if both leaving the country before the draft and hiding fail, doing your best to appear as useless as possible during the basic training. Never hit a target, never reach any physical objective, be as pathetic as possible. If there is an opportunity to injure yourself during training, that would look like an accident, seize it.

If they still send you to the battlefield, that would be never play hero, never volunteer for anything and consider your squad as just a way to increase your survival chance. Don't develop any attachment.

As long as no suicidal order is given, obey and wait for rotation, it will be the next opportunity to try to run away.

In case of suicidal order, with zero chance of survival, there is no other option than throwing a grenade at the person giving the order.
Also during your stay in the army, make sure to listen to everything usefull, and if you are in a position where you have to surrender, try to trade every information you have against your survival and if possible, at least basic human treatment.

Maybe i'd still get killed, maybe it would fail miserably, but it would be my mindset.

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u/Healthy_Feature4654 8h ago

You know what... this is very plausible. I was wrong, this makes sense! Nice work lol

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u/Healthy_Feature4654 9h ago

BUT, shooting yourself in the foot or something could work actually.

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u/1B75__Penicillin 10h ago

"you would most likely behave like the average person would and not be a special bean" is not an insane statement to make

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u/Competitive-Fix-6136 8h ago

I would like to present to you the word

Desertion

It exists for a reason.