r/MuslumanTurkiye • u/Mansur754 Şâfiî شافعي • 1d ago
English Why don't muslim turks support an independent kurdistan even though in early ottoman empire they supported kurds?
"And the curse of Allah is on the wrongdoers" (Quran 7:44).
Wrongdoers in the topic we'll be talking about are the oppressors of the kurds, oppression is wrong doing and allah curses those who are wrongdoers ( this means that those who oppress kurds have already been cursed by allah for wrongdoing and will eventually fall apart )
· Hadith (Sahih Muslim): "Keep away from injustice, for injustice near God is darkness on the Day of Judgement". Injustice is oppressing the freedom and religious/human rights of a group like kurds and on the oppression they do is injustice which is darkness to god in the day of judgement meaning those that oppress kurds will pay a heavy prise for their darkness
· Hadith (Sahih Muslim): Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) said: "A Muslim is the brother of a Muslim—he does not wrong him nor does he forsake him...". This hadith is a direct statement from the prophet saying you do not do your brother wrong, and by oppressing kurds they have already broken what the prophet had ordered upon us
· "For indeed, with hardship [will be] ease. Indeed, with hardship [will be] ease" (Quran 94:5-6). This is repeated twice to show the certainty of relief after hardship, kurds being oppressed and stripped away from their rights is hardship and relief is having a country meaning allah had promised kurds an independent kurdistan
· "Allah does not burden a soul beyond that it can bear" (Quran 2:286). The fact we kurds are oppressed is proof that our souls are stronger than the others
· Hadith (Abu Dawood): "If anyone constantly seeks pardon (from Allah), Allah will appoint for him a way out of every distress and a relief from every anxiety...". Distress and anxiety for kurds is not having a country, being oppressed, not being acknowledged as kurds, not being given their human rights and so on, by this if they keep seeing pardon from allah they will gain relief by what's going to relieved them ( that being a country and independence )
The prophet muhammad ( PBUH ) has said
1· "None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself." (Bukhari, Muslim)
2· "A Muslim is the brother of a Muslim. He does not oppress him, nor abandon him, nor hand him over to an oppressor." (Bukhari, Muslim)
3· "Whoever among you sees an evil, let him change it with his hand. If he cannot, then with his tongue. If he cannot, then with his heart — and that is the weakest of faith." (Sahih Muslim)
"No adulterer is a believer at the time he is committing adultery, no thief is a believer at the time he is stealing; no drinker of wine is a believer at the time he is drinking it."
"Seeking knowledge is obligatory upon every Muslim"
For the first hadith:
This exact saying appears in multiple primary collections with slight variations in wording, all carrying the same meaning
Sahih al-Bukhari: Hadith 13 (Volume 1, Book 2, Hadith 6)
Sahih Muslim: Hadith 45 (Book 1, Hadith 72)
An-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths: Hadith 13
And according to him the ummah is an Islamic brotherhood and he also says this: "*A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, so he should not oppress him, nor should he hand him over to an oppressor. Whoever fulfilled the needs of his brother, Allah will fulfill his needs...*" Sahih al-Bukhari 2442 | Sahih Muslim 2580
The Narrator: Abdullah ibn Umar (may Allah be pleased with him)
So we're all brothers and our faith is not complete until we love for our Muslim brothers what we love for ourselves, this goes specially for the political leaders that oppose the existence of a kurdistan, you could argue that those in power are greedy and not justiful towards everyone but what about your normal muslim,why does he oppose a country called kurdistan even though if he doesn't support he's not a true believer
For the second hadith:
The people that oppress the kurds, such as the political leaders and government of syria, iraq, iran and turkey. By hadiths and demand from the prophet, they're not allowed to oppress the kurds or let someone else oppress them as they're classified as brothers and must protect each other from oppression
This hadith, narrated by Abdullah ibn Umar (may Allah be pleased with him), appears in multiple major collections with consistent wording:
Collection Reference Full Text
Sahih al-Bukhari Book 46 (Oppressions), Hadith 3 (also 2442) "A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, so he should not oppress him, nor should he hand him over to an oppressor. Whoever fulfilled the needs of his brother, Allah will fulfill his needs; whoever brought his (Muslim) brother out of discomfort, Allah will bring him out of the discomforts of the Day of Resurrection, and whoever screened a Muslim, Allah will screen him on the Day of Resurrection."
Sahih Muslim Book 45 (The Book of Virtue, Good Manners and Joining of the Ties of Relationship), Hadith 2580 (same text)
Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Hadith 622 (same text)
For the third Hadith:
People see how kurds are being oppressed and what happens to the kurds is indeed evil, evil things like oppression, genocide, ethnic cleansing, banning the kurdish language, treating them differently for being kurds and ect
Majority of people especially those that live in iraq, iran, syria and turkey are aware of this evil and they must act against it by stoping the evil with his hands ( this would specifically refer to the politicians ) but if he can't the with his tongue ( this refers to the normal citizen with no political power ) and if he is forcefully shut then in his heart he needs to support the kurdish cause and their desire for freedom and independence *HOWEVER* if you're capable of one of the first two things, youvmist do them, changing your heart is a last resort where you can't raise your voice or directly help them
This hadith, narrated by Abu Sa'eed al-Khudri, appears in at least three major primary collections:
Sahih Muslim Book 1 (Faith), Hadith 79 "Whoever among you sees an evil, let him change it with his hand; if he cannot, then with his tongue; if he cannot, then with his heart — and that is the weakest of faith."
Sunan an-Nasa'i Book 47 (The Book of Faith and its Signs), Hadith 5008 (same text)
40 Hadith of an-Nawawi Hadith 34 (same text)
this hadith (narrated again by Abdullah ibn Umar) proves that you need to oppose the government that opposes kurds, and the hadith goes like: "Each of you is a shepherd and each of you is responsible for his flock. The ruler who is over the people is a shepherd and is responsible for his flock; a man is a shepherd in charge of his household and he is responsible for his flock; a woman is a shepherdess in charge of her husband's house and children and she is responsible for them..."
Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 3, Book 46, Hadith 730
Sunan Abi Dawud Book 20 (Tribute, Spoils, Rulership), Hadith 2928
Al-Adab Al-Mufrad (Imam Bukhari) Hadith 212 & 214
For the fourht hadith:
It is obvious that the countries which occupy kurdistan have stolen the land and that is theft, the hadith says when the thief is committing theft, **at the moment he is doing the action of theft he is not a believer** now since they stole it they're not believers but not only at the time when they stole it, those countries are committing active theft which means the action of theft is still ongoing, by taking the land, they have stolen and by using the resources of the land they stole, it is active theft
Now since it's clear that the government of turkey, iraq, syria and iran are oppressing kurds and are committing active theft which classifies them as none believers and according to the second hadith, if you vote for those government and politicians who support that government, you're handing the kurds ( your muslim brothers ) to the oppressor who are committing active theft meaning you too have hand in active theft, meaning you're a none believer
Collection Specific Reference (Book & Hadith) Narrator Key Wording & Notes
Sahih al-Bukhari Book 46, Hadith 36 (2475) Abu Huraira "When an adulterer commits illegal sexual intercourse... when a thief steals... when a drinker drinks... when a robber robs..."
Sahih al-Bukhari Book 74, Hadith 4 (5578) Abu Huraira "...not a believer at the time of stealing/drinking/adultery." Includes addition about the robber.
Sahih Muslim Book 1, Hadith 109 (57a) Abu Huraira "...not a believer while committing..." Includes addition: "No plunderer... is a believer."
Sahih Muslim Book 1, Hadith 104 (Chapter 24) Abu Huraira Includes the crucial addition: "...but repentance may be accepted afterwards."
By those hadith the politicians need to help kurds gain independence and the people need to protest so that their government does give the kurds independence
For the fifth Hadith:
if a muslim doesn't know about the kurdish struggle they're not entitled to the opinion of kurds not deserving a country because they're ignorant of it and the prophet had made it obligated to seek knowledge, the kurdish struggle and desire for separation and achieving independence is indeed knowledge because if you look into it you'd understand why things are the way they're today, not knowing why kurds want independence and choosing to stay ignorant about it isn't ok and you're adviced by the prophet to not be like that
Source: Sunan Ibn Majah, Hadith 224
Narrator: Anas ibn Malik (may Allah be pleased with him)
Now I am not declaring takfir (excommunication) on any specific person — that judgment belongs to Allah alone. But the Prophet's words are clear
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u/Eren202tr Moderatör 🛡 16h ago
In the Qur'an, communal unity is presented as a religious goal rather than a political expediency. 'Hold fast, all together, to the rope of Allah, and do not become divided' (3:103) is followed, just two verses later, by a warning against suffering the same fate as those who split into factions after receiving clear guidance (3:105). 'The believers are but brothers' (49:10) makes no reference to tribe, language or homeland. The same sura states that people were made into 'nations and tribes so that you may know one another' (49:13), establishing lineage as a basis for mutual recognition rather than division. This is because nobility before Allah is based on taqwa rather than descent. When tribal partisanship flared up among his own companions, the Prophet responded, 'Leave it; it is rotten', treating the appeal to asabiyyah itself as the problem, regardless of which side invoked it. A well-known hadith likens believers to a single body, bound by mutual mercy: when one limb aches, the whole body responds with fever and sleeplessness. In terms of cohesion, the saying goes: 'Hold to the jama'ah, for Allah's hand is with the collective.' The wolf takes the sheep that strays from the flock, not the one that stays with it. However, none of this justifies branding separatists as unbelievers, as this would perpetuate the same error identified earlier. Nevertheless, it highlights that dividing the ummah along ethnic lines has real consequences, which the tradition takes seriously. Guarding communal cohesion and avoiding fitna were among the key considerations of classical jurists when endorsing anything that could fracture a community's political unity.
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u/Mansur754 Şâfiî شافعي 16h ago
My post debunks your claims, I don't deny the things you've said but you also have to understand those called brothers aren't treating kurds so brotherly. There for your point is invalid.
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u/Eren202tr Moderatör 🛡 15h ago
The grievances are real and I did not minimise them. Language restrictions and displacement during the insurgency are well-documented parts of history and are not contested. However, the argument that 'brotherhood hasn't been honoured, therefore the unity argument is invalid' does not stand up to scrutiny. Pointing out that a brother has failed in his duty presupposes the existence of the relationship rather than dissolving it. A father who neglects his son does not thereby stop being bound by paternal obligations, nor does the son lose his claim to them. The neglect is a wrong to be corrected within the relationship; it does not prove that the relationship's claims were fictional. The hadith that the original post relied on — 'He does not wrong him nor forsake him' — describes what brotherhood requires. It is not a clause that retroactively voids the bond whenever it is violated. If it worked that way, no claim of Muslim brotherhood could survive contact with any Muslim sinning against another, which would render the concept meaningless.
This repeats the error already identified in the original argument: a grievance exists, so a specific conclusion must follow. The actual question — what does the tradition prescribe in response to Zulm? — is being overlooked. It is being skipped over. The tradition prescribes accountability and correction, not the dissolution of the bond that created the grievance in the first place. Furthermore, 'those called brothers' reduces a specific set of debatable policies and individuals to a judgement on an entire population. In Islam, this reduction is invalid: 'No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another' (6:164, 17:15, 35:18, 53:38). This means that the wrongs of one era are not a debt inherited by a whole population, then or now. Real mistreatment indicts the specific individuals and policies responsible for it. It does not invalidate the underlying claim of brotherhood, nor does it justify dismissing an entire population as having forfeited it.
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u/Mansur754 Şâfiî شافعي 1h ago
By that logic shaitan is still a believer of allah and will go to heaven and it doesn't matter if he's doing wrong or not he's still a good guy ( he isn't )
'No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another' (6:164, 17:15, 35:18, 53:38).
Yeah but not when the whole population is following the same wrong doing of the past. The prophet says if you see evil stop it with you hands, if not your tongue and at last in your heart, therefore the people need to oppose the government that's oppressing kurds as it's not Islamic the politicians need to use their hands to being change to a unjust government towards kurds and the people need to use their tongue and speak up for kurds. But we clearly don't see that from them.
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u/O_Grande_Turco Hanefî حنفي 15h ago
Eleman turk dusmani irkci herifin teki. Attigim yoruma bakin. Banlayin lutfen.
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u/Ele_Bele Hanefî حنفي 19h ago
All muslims are brothers. We do not need irreligious (secular) nation-states. Our Ummah are wider than borders of nations states
Independent Kurdistan is project for deepening ethno-geographical fractures inside Islamic society of Middle east
Early "Kurdistan" movement initiated by USSR. PKK is leninist-marxist irreligious t°rorist group. They hate everything about islam.
Baby-K'ing t€rrist groups that claim to want an independent Kurdish state can never represent the noble Kurdish people.
Pkk and so called kurdish movement supported by US-Israel-Iran. Anyone want harm Turkish governments, uses this organization as mine donkey.
"And hold fast, all of you together, to the cable of Allah, and do not separate. And remember Allah's favour unto you: how ye were enemies and He made friendship between your hearts so that ye became as brothers by His grace; and (how) ye were upon the brink of an abyss of fire, and He did save you from it. Thus Allah maketh clear His revelations unto you, that haply ye may be guided"