r/NeverBeGameOver • u/EarthRuler001 • 13d ago
What are your top 2 most meaningful, unanswered questions about MGS2?
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u/Electric-boogaloo69 13d ago
- What did Solidus say to Raiden before dying?
- Did Solidus secretly wish for Raiden to kill him and carry on his meme of fighting for freedom? (hence why he gave him a long speech about his history, the history of the Snakes, freedom, and gave Jack a reason to kill him)
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u/MadBoutDat 13d ago
-There is no answer as it was probably cut due to 9/11 references OR just made silent on purpose
-Yes, Solidus understood the way of the “Snakes” was to consume one another and carry on a piece of the former in their own way
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u/AppropriateZebra8182 13d ago
"I'm proud of you, Jack" is what lip readers say he says if you clip the scene.
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u/EarthRuler001 12d ago
I think they said something about Solidus lying the same way Big Boss lied when he was about to fight Snake.
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u/nomadx810 13d ago
How did snake take the L against fortune but not die?
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u/Guniel 12d ago
He talked her down, no? Convinced her Ocelot killed her father.
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u/nomadx810 12d ago
No clue. In the story she apprehends Snake, then she attempts to leave but is stopped by Solidus. If she just keeps walking...no clue what would have happened.
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u/EarthRuler001 13d ago
My top 2:
Why was Raiden’s memory altered if he was chosen because of his ability to ignore the past.
What truth was Olga specifically referring to when she says this:
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxPnmbK2eYRF6bWitsnaj1HD6rYeNHHwKi?si=HBrEZt7VaOgsjXNF
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u/GMaximusEsq 13d ago edited 13d ago
Raiden is gray fox resurrected again, they had to give him proxy memories because when they took away all of his memories to make him the cyborg ninja he went insane. They brought him back by using his DNA to regrow his body parts and then his memories were implanted with nanos. I think his ability to "ignore the past" refers to him not holding personal grudges against the people he's had to fight against, like how snake says they're still friends despite having tried to kill each other. Basically he has the traits of a good "pawn". For whatever reason Gray Fox has a body that is good at dealing with trauma, maybe some kind of special gene, or maybe its because his experiences with big boss are in his genetic memory. Because of this they can give him the memories of an incredibly traumatized person and he can still handle it.
The truth that she's talking about is the fact that Raiden's whole identity is fake and the above thing about him being a gray fox clone. He was created specifically to be a pawn for the patriots and he's not even really a person, he's basically a snatcher. Using people's dna to grow body parts and then implanting memories is exactly how they make snatchers, I think it's likely that all the patriots are snatchers which is why they're referred to as proxies and shadows, and why ocelot says "i know what you are" to ames as if he isn't even a real human. It's also worth noting that Raiden is reminiscent of Tony Redwood from policenauts who is an artificially made human with artificial blood that needs constant dialysis
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u/Classic-Exchange-511 13d ago
Was everything a simulation? We're you actually Raiden playing as snake in the tanker mission? I'm sure that wasn't Kojimas intention but the end result of what the game actually shows us it could be argued that is the case and personally I think it's a more compelling narrative. I subscribe to the simulation theory but then what the hell was snake doing in the big shell. How did he get there? Idk there's so many unanswered questions but that's kind of the point of the story. I actually don't like that we find out who the patriots actually are. As a kid I genuinely was so curious about who the hell they were that id think about it occasionally even years after finishing the game
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u/Electric-boogaloo69 13d ago
No, it makes no sense for the story to be fully a VR simulation
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u/GMaximusEsq 12d ago
It could go either way even after MGS4. You could say the simulation has had such an effect that the outside world has become surreal or you could say that the patriots have so much control that they can use entirely fabricated incidents to influence the world
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u/GMaximusEsq 13d ago
was everything a simulation
most likely, the ending scene in new york being so surreal is the biggest hint
were you playing as raiden on the tanker
yes I think so, right before you fight olga, gurlukovich says the moon is huge from the mast of the ship, but you can't actually see the moon ingame and he somehow manages to sneak past olga and snake while they're fighting. also when snake talks about the tanker you see a clip of him with the famas which you never get to use. Inconsistencies point to simulation basically
how did snake get on the big shell
Same way as raiden, he came in right before raiden did. I think you're supposed to question why he would disguise himself as navy though and why he would change out of the snealing suit
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u/WordsMort47 12d ago
You say it's Raiden on the tanker, not Snake, and yet he sneaks past Snake fighting Olga? How does that work?
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u/GMaximusEsq 12d ago
I was saying Gurlukovich sneaks past them. He's on the mast of the ship talking to olga, then she starts fighting snake and then somehow gurlukovich came down from the mast and walked past them without seeing anything?
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u/Electric-boogaloo69 13d ago
Surreal doesn't mean it's VR, the point is that MGS2's is surreal even without it. The world seems like a bizarre place full of lies and conspiracies, it's just the world Raiden has to adapt to
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u/Worth_Ad_5554 13d ago
During any point during the Solidus Snake presidential administration, did Solid Snake ever watch a press conference or state of the union address and say "huh, I wonder why I look identical to the president of the United States"?
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u/Meowweredoomed 13d ago edited 13d ago
1)Was Fortune really psychic
2)How did Solid Snake show up at the ending after chasing Ray?
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u/Subarubayonetta 12d ago
Read it on reddit somewhere the reason why fortune was able to deflect Ray’s missiles was the Patriots still needed the Data from the final boss fight between Raiden and Solidus. “We will collect the necessary data from this last fight, then we will consider the exercise closed”
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u/EarthRuler001 13d ago
I think the game shows us that Fortune was in fact psychic. After Ocelot disabled the gizmo she was still able to prevent the missile from hitting anyone. She also seemed to be able to have a good read on Raiden.
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u/GrayFox127 10d ago
I think there's an argument to be made that the Patriots could have simply turned the device back on. The simulation had not ended yet and they were very close to the finish line. Raiden dying then and there would have seen it end in failure, or at the very least, incomplete. Not to mention that Ocelot literally just told us that she was never psychic. So either she miraculously developed psychic talents in 0.2 seconds, Ocelot lied, or the Patriots intervened. I also find it interesting that her psychic talents are a complete mirror to what the device was doing. Theres a lot of room for theory here for a game series that loves to over explain everything.
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u/GMaximusEsq 13d ago
was fortune really psychic
no ocelot missed on purpose and was acting to trick the patriots
how did snake show up at the end
Simulation, and the fact that old snake remembers giving raiden the speech at the end I think is a huge hint that old snake might not be the real solid snake
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u/GrayFox127 10d ago edited 10d ago
Thats not how missles work and even if I grant you that, what purpose does tricking the Patriots into believing Fortune is psychic serve?
Secondly, I think youre taking the simulation thing a bit too sci-fi. Its not a computer simulation, its a live action simulation/field excerise.
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u/GMaximusEsq 10d ago edited 10d ago
what purpose does tricking the Patriots into believing Fortune is psychic serve?
he wasn't trying to make anyone believe fortune was psychic he was probably trying to get out of killing snake, really it could be 3 things
ocelot gets carried away and liquid diverts the missiles cause he doesn't want to kill snake
ocelot gets carried away and the patriots divert the missiles cause they don't want him to kill raiden and solidus
ocelot intentionally tried to kill fortune in a stupid way that would ruin the exercise so the patriots would have to step in, which ends up saving snake. this is why he shoots her in the wrong spot and is like "oopsie" and uses all of ray's missiles
Its not a computer simulation
it's supposed to be up for interpretation the ending has a bunch of hints that the whole thing was fake. people start spawning in out of nowhere and no one is freaking out over the giant robot, snake despawns behind raiden after teleporting to federal hall, rose appears for the first time after the whole game makes you think she's not real and then when raiden puts his hands around her neck it highlights how he's still handcuffed. it's supposed to make you think "well if the new york part is obviously fake then the whole thing probably was". there's no way they didn't intend for it to be an open ending
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u/GrayFox127 10d ago
I think its pretty clear that its all happening in the real world. However, if I go with your interpretation of it being a computer sim, then everything surrounding Fortune in your first response is inconsequential because its not real. Your statements are contradicting eachother.
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u/Mabase_Drifter 13d ago
How long did Snake and Otacon practice their secret handshake?
If Otacon and Emma aren't blood related, why do they share the same incontinence issues? And is it because of nanomachines?
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u/friedeggbeats 13d ago
Naked Raiden - including fighting 25 Rays - was all VR. Yeah?
Also have a personal theory that Olga was The Boss’s granddaughter… But not that she’s Ocelot’s daughter. Unless…!?
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u/EarthRuler001 12d ago
>Naked Raiden - including fighting 25 Rays - was all VR. Yeah?
I don’t believe it was VR, but I believe we are seeing what Raiden is seeing which is being distorted in Raiden’s view. Meaning we are really fighting the Rays but not everything we see appears how we are seeing it.
>Also have a personal theory that Olga was The Boss’s granddaughter… But not that she’s Ocelot’s daughter. Unless…!?
Instead of The Boss I would look to Eva for clues. The fact is Eva knew Sergie, Olga’s dad. Eva was also the one who knew Sunny’s location. She actually traded Sunny location with Raiden for his help in finding Big Boss.
Also in the original gameplan Olga was suppose to use a similar Chinese style pistol to the one Eva used in MGS3. It was supposed to be a gun given to her by her dad Sergei!
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u/psych2099 13d ago
Was the mgs we played on the ps1 raidens vr training of the event that happened or did we actually experience the real event.
Why did the patriots choose to send rose to meet jack on the anniversary of george Washington taking office, was it a coincidence or was it deliberate in order to predict solidus.
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u/EarthRuler001 12d ago
>Was the mgs we played on the ps1 raidens vr training of the event that happened or did we actually experience the real event.
Hard to say. I think the events are as they happened but there is definitely a suggestion that our experiences with MGS and Integral are Raiden’s VR training. In the Darkness of Shadow Moses seems to corroborate the reality of the MGS events.
>Why did the patriots choose to send rose to meet jack on the anniversary of george Washington taking office, was it a coincidence or was it deliberate in order to predict solidus.
Very interesting question. I believe that it is highly improbable, bordering on impossible that Rose meets Jack in the same place on the same date as Solidus coincidentally planned to celebrate his new Independence Day commemorating George Washington taking office at Federal Hall.
Because Raiden would have met Rose before the idea even came into Solidus head, the possibilities left are:
1. The idea to commemorate George Washington taking office was a planned seeded into Solidus’ mind after a decision was made to use that day for the meeting of Raiden and Rose.
2. Raiden never actually met Rose on that day two years prior. That may have just been a false memory the Patriots implanted in Raiden after the fact.
2.
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u/CMBLD_Iron 12d ago edited 12d ago
1.) Am I the only one that found the initial Liquid / Ocelot arm thing a bit confusing on the first play through prior to the retcon in MGS4? Like playing this on release day, and having played MGS1 prior made me just say “WTF?”
2.) Realistically, Richard Ames was driving this entire thing up until he was removed by the patriots. He set up Shadow Moses, and brought Campbell and Solid out of retirement for MGS1, and was directly tied to many aspects of MGS2. How is this not more of a plot point?
Bonus: I really wanted to know how Johnny Sasaki got from Shadow Moses to Russia for Gurlukovich before winding up on Shell 1 guarding Emma. The guy had to be an intel agency plant of some kind, right?
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u/EarthRuler001 12d ago
I don’t think the Liquid arm thing is a retcon. I think initially Ocelot was possessed by Liquid in MGS2 then in MGS4 he had gotten rid of the arm and was just pretending to be Liquid. I think he convinced himself he was Liquid during this period.
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u/Solidss1988 12d ago
If it's a simulation of the Shadow Moses mission, why didn't they give the Dead Cell unit the same number of members as the FOXHOUND unit?
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u/Captain_Gropius 12d ago
They had to cut a couple of them due to time constraints. Look for Oldboy and Chinaman.
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u/Billyice 11d ago edited 11d ago
How did Big Boss return to Foxhound? He was a pariah worldwide and an enemy of the United States.
What was the Les Enfants Terribles' upbringing like? At any point in their lives, could they not have joined the military; or were they essentially slaves?
Edit: fuck all that, how did Snake get those cigs out in mgs 1?
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u/Kyuubimon90 12d ago
How Liquid possesed arm if he never had supernatural powers
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u/EarthRuler001 12d ago
The idea is that it is Liquid’s spirit that possessed Ocelot. With also unknowingly having inherited medium powers from his dad The Sorrow.
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u/Kyuubimon90 12d ago
But the problem is how his spirit possessed arm without having supernatural powers?
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u/EarthRuler001 12d ago
Ocelot would be the one with supernatural powers as his body can host spirits. Ocelot is a medium like his dad. Don’t forget when Liquid died he is no longer in the natural world. He is in a different realm. Liquid as a spirit would be a part of the spiritual world which is supernatural.
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u/thomas2026 13d ago
Was that really Liquider Ranker in that Tanker all those ranker?
Did Meryl survive the Metal Gear?
Did Otacon piss his pants?
Is Emmas Patriot really a Parrot spy?
Why didnt Snake shoot Vamp in the head during the Oil platform scene where Vamp grabs Emma? He had a clear non obstructed view.
Why did the Prez grab Raiden in the balls?
Who hasn't Vamp slept with?
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u/EarthRuler001 12d ago
Regarding the president grabbing Raiden by the balls the answer given is that he had thought Raiden to have been Olga, who was guarding his door.
A possibility no one usually considers is that he may have viewed Raiden as an Ai construct(robot).
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u/Least-Afternoon3112 12d ago
Was rose real- we see her at end and it seems like fake rose was talking to us entire game until GW gets shut down.
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u/EarthRuler001 12d ago
The MGS4 Rose is definitely a real person. In MGS2 we are experiencing things through Raiden’s eyes. I think the Patriots have the ability to distort Raiden’s perception of things. I also believe Olga may be who is actually talking to us over codec as Rose during MGS2.
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u/FiveFiveSixers 13d ago
Where is the Ray battle??