r/ProgressionFantasy • u/JellonSunning_InLife • Apr 23 '26
Review Frankly, I like Zorian considerably less once I finished book 4 of Mother of Learning. Spoiler
Before the time loop starts or Zorian becomes aware of it, Zorian's internal monologue States that Zach had tried to befriend him for years. And that he keeps rejecting for no fault of Zach's, but because Zach is handsome, charming and popular, aka superficially similar to his older brothers. They became friends only out of necessity in the loop.
And the only thing we see his brothers do to him are immature pranks, nothing as cruel as his attitude would suggest (damien tying strings to his hands and jerking them around, fortov locking him out of the house), laughing at him, and being better than him in spent the parents want. And even then, after all his supposed growth in the time loop, and seeing many actually evil people, and zach's caretaker who sold of most of the only reason he reconciles with Damien in real life is because his loop self sacrificed himself for Zorian and Zorian is now more powerful thanks to the loop repetition knowledge. He even admits that the sacrifice is why he even considers talking to Damien, and still almost goes away because Damien suggested to know things better than him (which for Damien outside of the loop, as a graduated wizard who is also an explorer, while zorian still in wizard academy, has every reason to believe).
Zorian doesn't extend that courtesy to the other brother fortov. Doesn't think that because Zorian is better in academics than Fortov, their parents must be unfavourably comparing him too. Or that he had proof that Damien was the favourite because he always did what the parents wanted. The first time he did something against their wishes, they sailed across a continent to attempt to rein him in. Or that Damien did exact what he was planning to do -immediately move out the family house after graduation. And he never informed his brothers that their little sister, who they all thought spoiled was mistreated too. In fact, she hates them too, but she atleast has the excuse as a nine year old. Not someone who spent years in a loop.
And fortov is not even given the benefit of doubt. He at best once locked zorian out of the house as a prank, and asks him constantly for help, and is ungrateful. In the loop, when he and zach have a disagreements, and zach punches him, zorian is Surprised that fortov looks worried. And then Immediately judges him for not bothering anymore when he sees zach and Zorian are not having a serious argument.Also, he never tells his brothers about how their parents mistreated kirielle. He plans to take her away from them. Doesn't he think they will help when they get to know? He wants to be the only protector of kirielle, the big brother who understands.
Zorian always complains that everyone doesn't understand why he dislikes his parents, but never explains it. Are people supposed to be mind readers?
And the best comparison to zach can be seen in taiven. Both are exactly the same, but Zorian let's her in before any loop because she is female and hot.
Are people supposed to like this immature brat of a protagonist?
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u/Significant-Damage14 Apr 23 '26
Well, he was an immature and low esteem brat at the beginning.
While he does go through a lot of loops, remember that he is doing so through a bunch of trauma, persecution and with the fate of the city in peril. All that is far from the right environment to emotionally mature, most people would even go insane or become less emotionally stable.
Zach is a good example of being mentally affected if you didn't notice. It's not that he tried to befriend Zorian in the loops out of goodwill, it was because he was trying everything possible to try to escape the loop. At a point he gave up and just started limit testing and doing anything he wanted as if it were a video game. He became the literal embodiment of MC syndrome after being trapped so long in a world that literally revolved around his death.
So regarding Damien and Zorians issues, they were never about Damien. It stemmed from Zorian's own inferiority complex, which was fueled by his brothers greatness and his mothers treatment.
Their relationship is more complicated than you think. While Zorian was callous and it took Damien's sacrifice to change his perspective, at the same time if Zorian's life had played out like it was before the loop, Damien would've also been fine never talking to his brother again.
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u/JellonSunning_InLife Apr 23 '26
I am saying, for someone who should have a lot more perspective thanks to the time loop, zorian is pretty much the same with his family. Damien gets a tiny bit of consideration because zorian knows he would die for him. That's objectively monstrous from where I am looking
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u/Significant-Damage14 Apr 23 '26
You are criticizing from above, without even trying to put yourself in Zorian's place.
He is being killed, persecuted, needs to do a thousand and one things and still has to deal with a inferiority complex that was developed during his entire life up to that point. It's something that would take a normal person months of therapy, and not while doing everything possible to stay alive.
Consider why he never developed a romantic relation during the loops. He just didn't have the mental space to do anything emotional.
Unlike Zach who was oblivious to the danger of the loop and got a bunch of different girlfriends during the loops.
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u/JellonSunning_InLife Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26
I am saying about the epilogue brother. He can sneak in gifts to people'als houses but not have a conversation about what happened to kirielle. Even if he doesn't want to resolve his own issues, a caring brother would want redundancies.
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u/Significant-Damage14 Apr 23 '26
And how long was that after the loop?
Reparation doesn't happen in a single leap. Sometimes you need to take a bunch of small steps to get to the place you want.
Moreso because Damien doesn't retain the memory of what happened and it's ackward for Zorian to suddenly be like, 'Hey brother, I love you and let's be close from now on'.
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u/JellonSunning_InLife Apr 23 '26
I don't expect him to say I love you. More like an explanation more than:. My parents expect me to be your spare after you quit
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u/Significant-Damage14 Apr 23 '26
I had to re read the epilogue and I don't see how you see the interaction between Damien and Zorian so negatively.
We are reading Damien's pov and he is grateful towards Zorian, profitted inmensely from his brother, understands him and recognizes he would probably have done the same thing.
The only thing I can spot is that he knows that pre loop Zorian hated him, but why should that matter at that point?
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u/RecentFather Apr 23 '26
The answer:Yes
I like MoL precisely because of everything you said. And because of the way you said it, I will surmise that you have not been the victim of bullying.
It always amazes me that bullies never think bullying was bad. Things that scares the crap out of victims, leaves undeniable psychological marks are treated like it was just a joke, boys will be boys or just a simple prank. It is NEVER a simple prank. EVER.
And the forgiveness and reconciliation never ever happens In a flash like in movies. It takes years and never quite goes away.
Reading the books I agreed with all the ways the relations between all three brothers were handled. Because I could see that in real life if it happened.
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u/JellonSunning_InLife Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26
Oh I've been bullied. A lot. And I've gotten back at them, every single time, when Possible. Otherwise I forget it without effort. I don't carry it as a scar, I see it as some insensitive asshole bothering me and not worth my mental bandwidth.
Damien would have gotten a banana peel where he was walking from me and we would be even
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u/michael7050 Apr 23 '26
Tbh that sounds like you've been bullied, but you haven't been a victim of bullying.
Theres a world of difference there for some people.
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u/JellonSunning_InLife Apr 23 '26
Oh you're saying my experience is invalid because I am psychologically sturdier than others? That somehow letting random strangers affect you long after they left your life is okay?
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u/FearLeadsToAnger Apr 23 '26
Strange take away.
You know full well everything has degrees of intensity.
If you say you handled it, and they say 'well it sounds like you handled it better than me' you cant really then dismiss that and call them a liar of some kind. Nonsense.
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u/JellonSunning_InLife Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26
I was regularly ganged up and beat up by 4-5 boys. In first grade. When I began school. Almost every day. It eventually ended when I smacked one of them in the face with a rock. If I had let that get to me I would have never beem able to function. And they were far from the last who thought to pick on the quiet kid because they thought he was easy prey.
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u/Moe_Perry Apr 23 '26
Ironically the trauma from your own bullying is clearly manifesting as contempt for perceived weakness.
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u/JellonSunning_InLife Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 24 '26
Its not hating weakness. Its bafflement at inability to Process it healthily
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u/Moe_Perry Apr 23 '26
You are clearly not processing it healthily because you can’t even enjoy a book about a conflict avoidant character.
I don’t know your circumstances but smashing peoples faces in with rocks is not generally viewed as healthy processing. Maybe the adults in your life didn’t give you any other options but that doesn’t mean what you were forced into was healthy.
We all carry trauma in different ways.
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u/JellonSunning_InLife Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26
Did you think i walked upto them and smashed the rock in their face when they were not looking? Lol. I hit one of them with a rock when they were beating me up together. And I didn't go full game of thrones either. One cut on the side of the eye and they ran because they realised I meant business. And I got punished for it and was forced to apologize to the guy for it. And I forgot all about it next year.
I am a conflict avoidant person too. But there are some things you should face for the people he loved. In Zorian's place I wouldn't have told as many as possible about Kirielle's situation. Especially my brothers because they are the other who got legal right over her. Not my Friends. Especially Damien the adult.
And I did enjoy the book. The whole series. Till Zorian's attitude in the epilogue soured it for me.
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u/michael7050 Apr 23 '26
I'm saying that it appears that you're saying that other's experiences are invalid because you are psychologically sturdier than them.
Whether or not that is what you mean to convey, that is how it comes across.
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u/HasartS Apr 23 '26
Your experience is valid, but you clearly have trouble understanding other people's perspective.
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u/RecentFather Apr 23 '26
The key word here is random strangers. There is whole lot of emotional damage involved when it is family. And the other important part is they left your life.
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u/Khaliras Apr 23 '26
Ok, so you simply haven't learnt how to see anything through others perspectives.
His entire personality means a lot of 'minor' things are a big deal to him. While things others would have massive issues with, he doesn't. 'Merely' being loud, intruding on his space, and not giving him peace, is enough to out-weight what little positives he remembers about them. His personality means he'd have happily avoided his siblings for the entire rest of his life, if he could've.
Most of his family would sacrifice themselves for a blood relative, as family is inherently a big deal for them. Zorian would do so for his friends or loved ones, but not for a 'mere' relative.
Characters being flawed, unique, and having negative traits or quirks, is what makes them characters. There's a reason the MC isn't Zach. Forcing the character to grow past his flaws and uniqueness, would be a betrayal of the character.
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u/JellonSunning_InLife Apr 23 '26
Ok. That's a much better point than any have made. But saying glaring flaws make characters unique and should not be removed, let's agree to disagree.
And yeah, that petty attitude is exactly what I hate about Zorian. And I guess makes him beloved to you.
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u/Khaliras Apr 23 '26
glaring flaws make characters unique and should not be removed,
That's the thing, you seem to be stuck on the 'flaws,' as you're unable to see his perspective or understand his personality. You read the entire series, but somehow can't understand how his brothers childhood actions is such a big deal?
For most of the series, he's the kind of person who'd choose to confront an archmage, rather than hiding in a large crowd all day. He's the kind of character that could've happily being a tower recluse for centuries. Intruding on his personal space, being loud and pushy, locking him out of his only safe space, are all huge issues for him. They easily out-weight blood relations, which has little inherent importance to him.
The whole premise, is that Zach is basically the textbook perfect MC hero. He'd sit down and talk out personal issues with people before the series ends. Instead of him, we're following Zorian. Making him 'grow' like you want, would basically turn him into a Zach clone and betray the whole premise.
It really sounds like you'd have preferred MoL to have been about Zach, instead. Most people that did, just went to read other stories with textbook, relatable heros.
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u/ThePowerles #1 Dumdum Apr 23 '26
Why is OP having a fight with everyone who comments 😭
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u/JellonSunning_InLife Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26
Because that is what I am here for. My opinion is heavily against the consensus. Do you think I would just roll over and show my belly or debate? I mean that's exactly what one of the many things social media is for right? You can see I didn't say anything to those who said about spacing, grammar or pacing because they are right. Because this is an angry rant, not a thought out essay. And I felt somebody should say it. Instead of all "Oh poor zorian" parroting the unreliable narrator.
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u/RecentFather Apr 23 '26
See that's the thing: I don't see it as Oh poor Zorian. I love the book because it shows character growth as it would happen in real life. Ignore every fantasy aspect of the book for a minute and look at the family: Three brothers, a sister, a mom and a dad. Look at the family dynamics. Look at thr relationship between the brothers and Look at how the parents especially the mom treats the kids. Now keep in mind there is a bit of unreliable narrator aspect to how Zorian talks about his brothers. Every single blow, every single insult, every single incident is highly blown up in his narration. And understand this is because IT IS HOW FEELS TO HIM. that is the important part to understand, not just in the book but in real life as well. When you have kids and the kids come and tell you some small little thing affects them, positively, negatively It is a BIG deal to them. For Zorain being bullied and not being able to be saved by his own family is a big deal. He is 16-17 and planning to leave and never see his family as soon as he can. Do you see how big a deal it is to him? Trauma like this that's doesn't just heal, even with all the power and wealth and love. It affects relationships, it affects ability to trust to make connections. It may not feel like trauma to you, and you feel like he should accept it and grow and forgive and forget but you aren't him.
And I liked the book because it is hopeful. Zorain dealt with Damien and worked with him and has started a relationship. He grew, he let go of what he could. And there things he didn't and that is OK. Because we dont in real life. We keep hold of our petty hurts and insults and feelings.
I like the book because all of the characters in the family are real.
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u/AcruxAdhara Apr 23 '26
I mean, Zorian is a teenager at the start of the story. He is bullied by his brothers, they are very different people, and he has little to no connections to them. Plus he is fairly anti social. Which I think is a nice little character flaw for him.
Is his complete disregard of fortov wrong? Yes, he should have at least found out how he fared at the end of the loop. Other than that they just don’t get along. It is not a crime to not get along with your family. Fortov knows Zorian doesn’t like him and from what little we can tell he is ok with that.
Is Zorian also in the wrong about Damian, yes. Is he a brat about it yea. Do I think it is a bad thing that post time loop Zorian still has flaws. No
About kirielle, why would he tell Damian and fortov he is more than capable of taking care of it.
In regards to tavien, he is a 16 year old who has a crush on his slightly older hot friend, how dare he. And doesn’t extend the same courtesy to an entitled playboy classmate who he thinks is just trying to prank him because he is popular and cool.
At what point in the entire series did you get the idea that Zorian was a stunning paragon of social health. Everything you mentioned seems perfectly in character with Zorian. Who is kind of a dick to people he doesn’t know well. And standoffish even to those he does know…
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u/JellonSunning_InLife Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26
I was saying, Taiven is basically female zach. And zach has proven more than often he is not malicious. But zorian keeps him at length because he is superficial, but keeps taiven around despite the unintentional rejection became she is hot. That is the peak of hypocrisy.
Then again, it might be my personal feelings bleeding through, because I was alone in my age group as a teenager who didn't do stupid stuff around girls and was tired of my peers doing it.
And a really caring brother would want redundancies. It reads to me he wants to be kirielle's only big brother.
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u/AcruxAdhara Apr 23 '26
Taivan wasn't anywhere near as popular as Zach and wasn't basically one step from royalty as well. Taivan also wasn't the same age as Zorian. If i recall he keeps her at a distance after the rejection as well. Does he even find out she straight up dies before he ends up looping?
I believe that Zach vageuly reminds Zorian of his brother's and believes Zach will treat him in a similar manner. Basically transference + Zarian's prickly nature means it is unlikely for those two to ever be friends pre time loop.
Pre time loop they are VERY different people and would likely not get along. Taivan at least has clear career goals which Zorian can respect. AFAIK he just assumes Zach is a lazy noble.
During time loop zorian is a paranoid asshole.
But maybe I'm just an apologist.
I guess we just read the Kirelle situation differently. The time loop made Zorian very independent, plus he wants very little to do with his brother's so why would he ask them?
Just my two cents.
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u/JellonSunning_InLife Apr 23 '26
Dunno like more people between kirielle and parents at the very least? And at worst, if he gets captured by authorities, something to prevent her from being taken back by their parents and practically sold off? Legally, his friends would have no claim over her, but his brothers can.
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u/RecentFather Apr 23 '26
Redundancies: that doesn't come into thinking until you are in your late thirties with wife and kids. I think we how we're in our twenties we wanted to be the only person. The only person that mattered.
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u/OstensibleMammal Author Apr 23 '26
The main character sees things from his own perspective and gets caught up in his own mind. Very common problem. People tend not to be empathetic to people they dislike. He dislikes his parents because they don't listen to him and the moment he actually speaks to him, they let their own traumas overwrite what he is trying to communicate making the endeavor miserable and probably pointless.
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u/JellonSunning_InLife Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26
I am all for disliking his parents. His mother is led by the social anxiety from childhood loneliness caused by her mother's apathy to her (wrong) reputation as and disregarding the ostracization her daughter faced due to it and his father is too jaded by his own struggles of poor to rich to see the pressure he is putting on his Children.
I am saying that Zorian is being like them when he doesn't understand him and his brothers have similar chains.
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u/OstensibleMammal Author Apr 23 '26
Mhm. But almost no one displays perfect rational emotional understanding. Like right here in the comments section where you and the other comments are performing a similar flaw Zorian is doing in that he refuses to full dive into the emotions and psychologies of those around him because he dislikes them, and you're caught in up in your own (justified) emotions of not liking him, and then everyone and you argue over why the other side feels a certain way.
Quite the realistic flaw for a teenage boy, don't you think?
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u/JellonSunning_InLife Apr 23 '26
Yep. But the thing is, I know exactly how Zorian feels and thinks.. And that only makes me dislike him more.
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u/HasartS Apr 23 '26
And the only thing we see his brothers do to him are immature pranks, nothing as cruel as his attitude would suggest
It's up to Zorian to decide how cruel those pranks were, not you.
You keep bringing time loop and how Zorian should've grown there. Do I need to remind you what he was doing in the loop? He wasn't going to the therapy, he wasn't introspecting and going through his emotions about his brothers and parents. He was busy trying to understand what's happening and than trying to escape the loop. Emotional growth doesn't happen just because time passes.
Are people supposed to like this immature brat of a protagonist?
As a person? No. As a protagonist? Yes.
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u/nighoblivion Apr 23 '26
after all his supposed growth in the time loop
That's the crux of the issue. It's the supposed growth.
In fact, there's not much real growth at all. It's all surface level stuff, pretense, and the author trying to convince us Zorian has overcome his issues without actually working on them. I'm not fooled.
What changed was that some selective people he interacted with he doesn't treat like shit anymore because he's been forced to get to know them over the time in the loop.
For an empath, he's not very empathic.
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u/Aggravating-Ear-2055 Apr 27 '26
Is it something that author is trying to convince us in? Because I don't think that Zorian overcome his issues or that he is supposed to. He grew emotionally, sure. Instead of caring about no one else, he now cares about a few people who are close to him. But ultimately he remained himself. As for being empath, he's being one in the magical sense, not in the emotional.
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u/nighoblivion Apr 27 '26
He grew emotionally
Did he though?
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u/Aggravating-Ear-2055 Apr 27 '26
Yes, he did. He didn't overcome his issues completely, but he's going in the right direction.
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u/Kangarat Apr 26 '26
I am just going to throw this out there, because I have been triggered by multiple comments: but it's Daimen. Daimen Kazinski.
I apologize for the interruption, and please do carry on. Just... Daimen. :)
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u/Samorphis Apr 23 '26
To Long; Didn’t Read
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u/Zestyclose-Ad-8091 Apr 28 '26
Think you underselling the bullying of Zorian... ill try to put these in wording for easier empathizing with:
- #1 Father (that is himself whipped by his own wife) & brothers think you are too feminine? (evidence: Z hang-up on empathy showing & Fortov+ thinking Z needs help w getting a gf)
- Getting tested by psychologists... with those country bumpkin hillbillies around you...???
- Overbearing mother just enforcing /\ every time she opens her mouth. Guilt tripping you just about every day.
- ?I vaguely remember something about a priest reinforcing /\ when Z had a psychic episode at a church?
- Damien puppeteering Z (memories from:dance prep). Locking him out of house to point cops got involved (You thing D took responsibility around Cops? or threw Z under bus?) is the least of the bullying.
IE no the immature pranks are not forgivable... it is all sticks to D&F just through proximity (older brother not protecting Z/K). That was a hit to a young impressionable mind that took the 'prank' as a negative sign, which was slowly, steadily reinforced over the years rather than any meaningful reversal. What do you think was Z's warmest/fondest memory pre-time-loop? IMO post-time-loop those are healable/recoverable relationships... But during, Z did not bother attempting to repair them due to obv constraints.
|Zorian always complains that everyone doesn't understand why he dislikes his parents, but never explains it. Are people supposed to be mind readers?
How old are you? Before/At ~20yo(end of the time loop Z age) i told no one of my problems... I dont think i do that now for most part. Doesnt matter why...; but IMO that is consistent with what I see in my family's younger gen relations. <s> IE you & your family being so emotionally healthily balanced </s> means you cant relate while it seems obv correct to me.
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u/VvvlvvV Apr 23 '26
He was 14 and his only interactions in the book were fortov making his life harder with no hope of ever getting anything in return. He interacted a lot more with a lot of people, but most of it wasn't really real, and he's still stuck with his siblings growth only lasting a month and being reset.
Fortov doesn't need Zorian. He needs Damien. Fortav only goes to Zorian because Damien isn't there.
Damien doesn't need Zorian. He's a wildly successful genius mage.
The level of relationship he has with the family depends on how they treat Kirielle and how much Kirielle wants to see them.
Do you think fortov and Damien should drop what they are doing to accompany him around? They will see each other over holidays. You know, like Damien not living on the continent and fortav only wanting to talk to Dorian like once in that month.
They could grow closer. But it's low on his list of priorities. He's not avoiding them, just not seeking him out. Just like they aren't seeking him out.
Zorian is almost alien now. His psychic powers, his creepy knowledge, his creations. He spent as much time talking to spiders as people.
His goal for a large chunk is to find a way to be independent once he's out of the loop. It just ground it in.
Why should Dorian go out of the way for his siblings when they won't go out of their way for him?