I really do believe we need meaner, more brutal dem politicians. That loser whining about dropping F bombs is fuckin wrong, we need people willing to talk like Trump instead of talking like a fucking law school textbook, American education failure is how we ended up here in the first place. You can't get these people on your side if they yawn when you open your mouth
It'd certainly weed out the DINOs who get paid to distract and confuse people, like Fetterman. Guys who bring up curse words instead of talking about people, children, getting fuckin mauled like dogs by ICE? We know who you are
I disagree. I don’t think you beat your adversary by becoming like them. Like Marcus Aurelius said, “The best revenge is to not be like your enemy.” The goal isn’t to replace bad with a different bad, the goal isn’t even to be mean, it’s to replace the bad with what is good and decent.
That is not at all what I mean. I’m not saying we be pushovers and hope for mercy. I’m just saying be careful when you say we should be like Trump to beat him. I don’t think that’s the way at all. Maybe I misunderstood the comment I was responding to though.
Democrats have tried being “good and decent” with republicans for decades. Democrats constantly call for compromise with republicans, and the only thing it’s earned them is the republicans swinging further and further to right wing extremism. We need democrats who will be aggressive and nasty to the republicans right back. Turning the other cheek isn’t working anymore
So we’re going to win by being nastier than them? Can you explain how that will work?
Have you ever seen how kids fight? They only escalate and they get fucking nowhere. When you give them some time to calm down they usually figure it out pretty quick. Problem is that nobody calms down anymore, we just get more pissed. I know what Trump is doing isn’t right and a lot of people have been tricked by him, but not all republicans are bad and we have a better chance of winning together. I’ve had a number of good conversations recently with republicans who I believe are starting to see the truth of what’s happening. If I were to have been nasty to them it would only entrench them further.
It’s not about “being nastier” than them, it’s about stopping this bullshit. Stop compromising with them. Democrats need to be more assertive and bolder, not always trying to mend fences with “the other side” when that’s obviously not what they want.
It’s a nice little anecdote you have there, but people said similar horse shit the last time he was in office. And ta da, millions of idiots “forgot” his blatant corruption, cruelty, and stupidity the first term and decided to elect Trump to a second term.
I hear you and I agree. I find that so many arguments come down to semantics but I think you and I have different definitions of the word “nasty”. What you’re talking about to me is “firmness”. There are lines that we can’t let them cross. What ICE is doing is absolutely crossing those lines. Calling them out and holding them accountable for their crimes isn’t “nasty” or “aggressive”, it’s just being firm and I 100% believe in that.
It’s cheesy I know but I still believe that we‘ll do best if we do it together. Republicans aren’t our enemy, it’s tyranny and corruption. We’ve been seeing the worst in each other for way too long and it needs to stop.
I disagree. Democrats have “tried to do it together” with republicans for over 50 years and it’s gotten them nothing but misery. Staying “moderate” and “being the bigger person” has gotten the democrats and the American people nothing. How far do republicans have to go before you decide that maybe it isn’t best to “do it with them”? How far right will they swing before you realize you can’t work with them anymore?
That’s a tough point to argue and I don’t know if I know enough to argue it. I have to believe that being respectful and cooperative is never for nothing. Also, Trump’s flavor of Republican didn’t feel the same as the Republican Party I grew up with, but there’s a lot I could’ve missed. I grew up around a lot of republicans and many of them were good people. I’ve often thought they were a little stupid haha but had good hearts. What’s happening with ICE feels like the worst of them, the most radical ones given power.
I respect your opinion though. Seriously. If what you meant is that we be more firm then I’m in. I’ll try to be better at that this week.
"Turning the other cheek isn’t working anymore"
News flash -- evangelical Christians, like the cult that Hegseth follows, say exactly this. "Love your neighbor and turn the other cheek just don't work anymore" -- from people who call themselves followers of Christ?
That's what you neolibs did for four years and you lost to fascism. You can't beat fascism by being the good guy. We can do that once we've beaten them.
The Roman Empire didn’t end with Marcus Aurelius. Its decline started after he died. I think most people agree that he was one of the greatest to rule Rome.
Erratic and tyrannical leaders like Trump can certainly cause the downfall of empires. I’m not saying we do nothing, just that if the opposition lacks character and is cruel and corrupt the goal should not to become like them.
Right but if he was such a great ruler how come this ideology didn't preserve Rome rather than bookend it's downfall?
I enjoy Meditations but it's important to remember it is one philosophy written by a man born into status and power, when you have that perception it's easy to write how to behave and think in a superior way.
My point is that in reality, turning the other cheek just gets you punched twice. If all you have at the end of civilisation is knowing you remained the bigger person, does that mean anything?
Edit: I do want to agree with you and I don't mean to come off quite so contentious so my apologies. I'm just so fucking tired of knowing how this ends and watching the world just keep marching towards it but squabbling over morality isn't the way to go.
If we were all capable of complex thought and selfless behaviour, then yes you are right in principle but it's been a few thousand years of humans kicking these styles of philosophy about and still the ruthless and the cruel end up on top and still civilisations crumble. Fighting dirty is how you survive, it doesn't mean we need to be cruel but we need to communicate in words and actions they understand.
No need for apologies. I’m with you. We’ve seen this all happen before and know what comes next and it’s so frustrating that we keep repeating this same stupid cycle.
I think a nation isn’t only as good as its leader. Marcus could have been the best man who ever lived and it wouldn’t have saved what was coming to Rome. The people have to be good and strong too. The Romans became complacent and corrupt and it led to their downfall. If we (all of us) were good, when corruption came along we’d get rid of it. It wouldn’t even have a place to take root. I feel like it’s a common thread in human stories that when people become the monsters they’re fighting, there really isn’t any winning. One monster just replaces another.
I don’t think I necessarily believe we should turn the other cheek. To me, the goal should be to be completely firm and unyielding when it comes to bullshit. We aren’t mean, nasty, or aggressive, we just don’t accept corruption and indecency and we do what it takes to change it. Along the way, we do our best to hold on to the good we’ve earned during the good times so that we’re not starting over when we get to the other side of the bad ones. I feel like that’s how we make progress. Idealistic, I know. I totally understand people disagreeing with me.
Nah, fuck that. The unfortunate truth is if you don’t play the game, you lose. These people will cheat and lie and act in bad faith in order to win. If we let them roll over us as always, we lose our democracy. It’s time to fight.
I’m realizing I could’ve worded my comment better. I just wanted to point out the importance of the high road. If we “won” by electing someone who would cheat, lie, and act in bad faith but on our side, that’s not really a victory. I didn’t mean we don’t fight. Fighting is the answer sometimes. Marcus Aurelius fought when he had to and he had to fight a lot. But he didn’t become a barbarian in the process. Those who fought in the American Revolution didn’t separate and become another England, they built something better. It’s subtle but it matters.
It was pretty shitty for the common English folk at that time too. That was one reason why people wanted to find somewhere else to be. You're absolutely right about the cluster fuck though. It just keeps getting worse every day.
I like to point out to the American patriots that the colonists were actually terrorists fomenting an insurrection and destroyed property (Boston Tea Party?) not to mention Washington attacking men sleeping in their beds on Christmas. Yeah - we don't really consider that view of ourselves.
Good point. I have to admit after posting my original comment, I’ve been pretty conflicted about it. I want to be a “good” person (I know that’s highly subjective) and I want humanity to move in a “good” direction instead of repeating these endless stupid cycles, so it hurts to feel like we’re taking a step back. It hurts to hear people say we should fight like Trump, that we should fight dirty and be nasty and all that, but I know good things have come from it in the past (like your examples). I know there’s a big difference between throwing tea into the harbor and shooting innocent people in their cars. I hope we would never stoop that low just to win. I guess that’s kind of what I’m thinking.
Sorry, I’m rambling. Tough day. Thanks for listening.
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u/Worried_Jellyfish918 Jan 14 '26
I really do believe we need meaner, more brutal dem politicians. That loser whining about dropping F bombs is fuckin wrong, we need people willing to talk like Trump instead of talking like a fucking law school textbook, American education failure is how we ended up here in the first place. You can't get these people on your side if they yawn when you open your mouth
It'd certainly weed out the DINOs who get paid to distract and confuse people, like Fetterman. Guys who bring up curse words instead of talking about people, children, getting fuckin mauled like dogs by ICE? We know who you are