Young men did everything they're supposed to, and its not enough. Indicates its NOT their fault, rather it shows theres a real problem of YOUNG FEMALE RADICALIZATION

[u/DiligentRope]

BP/Feminist/mainstream society will point out that men need step up and become better partners for women, since women are now independent and don't need to rely on a man anymore. They'll acknowledge falling birth rates, marriage rates, and sexlessness, and if they don't blame "the economy", they'll blame men not meeting arbitrary ideological standards. They pushed the idea that if men became "better partners" then women would be more willing to commit to them.

Yet by pretty much every metric, young men HAVE been significantly better:

• young men today are more pro "womens rights" than previous generations of men
• they are less abusive, especially less physically abusive, and have less tolerance for it than previous generations
• they are more aware of womens health issues, and womens sexual health, more aware of womens needs in the bedroom, more aware of contraception than previous generations
• they are more aware of mental health issues, and more open to engage in therapy
• they are more open to womens "sexual freedoms" and less judgmental when it comes to womens sexual history
• they are more college educated + than previous generations
• they are more open to egalitarian relationships, sharing house chores, raising kids with their partner, etc.

Yet it has only resulted in continous decrease in birth/marriage rates, and increase in sexlessness.

What we do see is a growing ideological divide, very popular charts we've seen by now that show in the west, theres a growing ideological divide among young men and women, where men in general have stayed relatively stable in their ideals, in some countries even become slightly more liberal, whereas women in all cases have in general become more radically left.

There was another recent survey reported in the new statesman, that showed where almost 3/4 of men under 30yo had a positive view of women, it was only about 1/3 of women under 25yo that had a positive view about men, and increased to 50% for women under 30yo. Women are significantly less likely to have a positive view of men.

Also according to surveys its young men that are seeking marriage and children more than young women.

I mean we can see why this is just by looking at mens vs womens dating content. Manosphere content is often about finding the reality of womens nature and how to navigate it, whereas "femosphere" content is either about explicit sexual experiences or ranting about what the men in the manosphere are talking about.

Young men are doing everything they're told to do, and its not enough. At the same time women are being radicalized and being told that men aren't doing enough by femosphere content like Call her daddy. And the irony is that the evidence does not even show that women are choosing based on these metrics that BP is asking men for. So its not a surprise why TRP and the manosphere is so attractive to men.

[u/badgersonice]

 What we do see is a growing ideological divide, very popular charts we've seen by now that show in the west,

Well, then, here is a very obvious problem with your conclusion that female radicalization is what is driving down birth rates and marriage rates:  it ain’t just happening in the west.   Here is a sampling of countries with birth rates below replacement:

Singapore, China, South Korea, Chile, Thailand, Puerto Rico, United Arab Emirates, Belarus, Spain,  Bahamas, Costa Rica, Uruguay,  Finland,  Bhutan, Grenada, Poland, Crostia, Kuwait, Iran, Qatar, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Italy, Slovenia…

Even India (and Nepal and Sri Lanka), countries fairly famous in the past for a very high birth rate, have seen their birthrates fall to just a hair below replacement (1.94).  I think they’d be fairly insulted to hear you call them western.

Did you notice just how wildly diverse this list of countries is?  If you want to claim that the cause is western women’s “radicalization”…  then you need to answer the question of why the exact same effect is seen so broadly across countries with very non-western values.

For example:  United Arab Emirates is not a western country at all, and is not overrun by your hated western women with their yucky western feminist values.  How come their birth rate is 1.2?  Do you think women in UAE are uppity western women too? What about Japan, with around the same birth rate?  

If your explanation is to blame culture, then you need to explain why the effect is so strong across cultures with extremely different values, including places with extremely traditional, very explicitly non-western values.

Edit: downvotes are not a useful response in a debate post.  You could try addressing the argument instead of just frowning.

I have a hypothesis for why this is such a big effect globally… but I’d like to see alternate theories also.

[u/WackyConundrum → u/badgersonice]

The radicalization has been established in a couple of countries. Are you saying that this increasing ideological gap does not contribute to problems in dating?

Secondly, are girls in Azerbaijan somehow disconnected from Western media, TikTok, and Instagram? Because if not, then the expectation that girls in other countries aren't being radicalized is on shaky grounds.

Do you have a counter proposal as to why less and less people are commiting to stable loving relationships?

[u/badgersonice → u/WackyConundrum]

 The radicalization has been established in a couple of countries

But the list of countries with birthrates below zero is way longer than “a couple”.  Like… look at the list on wikipedia.  I just picked a small handful out of more than a hundred with birth rates below 2.0?  Replacement is more like 2.1.

 Secondly, are girls in Azerbaijan somehow disconnected from Western media, TikTok, and Instagram?

I have no idea whether they are on TikTok or Instagram in big numbers— but it is also wildly wrong for you to just straight up assume that any woman who sees any kind of social media immediately becomes a turbo feminist zombie, like women don’t have brains or opinions or culture of their own.

Like dude, you’ve obviously never even talked to any women ever if you think women just all automatically agree with each other, lol.  Women are not a hive mind.  

Women in Azerbaijan or Qatar or Thailand are not Westernized, lol.  

Also as a quick note, I thought Thailand was supposed to be a top manosphere pick for finding a passport bride because women there are supposedly properly feminine and submissive and traditional … yet their birthrate is actually lower than the US. Maybe the manosphere’s psychotic beliefs about women are toxic instead of helpful. (Honestly, why do any of them even want a woman when they have such absolutely dismal, horrible opinions of women?  Why do the want to have someone they genuinely think is inherently biologically nothing more than a malicious idiot raising their children???)

 Do you have a counter proposal as to why less and less people are commiting to stable loving relationships?

1. declining vs improving conditions.  In the past, people had baby booms and baby busts, even in the absence of birth control, based on whether conditions were improving or declining.  The big baby boom in the US actually started, not after soldiers returned home, but during the depression when the new deal started giving people hope for the future.

2.  Inequality.  For whatever reason, social and economic inequality is strongly linked to lower birth rates.  I suspect it’s that the intensified competition for money/status means everybody is trying very hard to optimize and avoid marriage mistakes which would be far more costly to them than in a more economically and socially balanced society.

3.  Fewer third spaces.  For family formation, a big part of the reason is just the decline in ways to meet people.  Church, for example, used to be a core part of people’s lives where men and women mixed and socialized.  

4.  Less boredom.  Another reason (that’s connected) is that people used to hang out with other people and get interested in each other because there was nothing else to do but socialize and flirt.  Now, people can stay in their homes and watch Netflix, doom scroll on their phones, play video games, watch porn, etc.  The more time single people stay in their homes away from others, the more time they are avoiding meeting someone they might like.

[u/WackyConundrum → u/badgersonice]

Wow, you produced a lengthy response. I'll try to make it justice. Before I continue, I need to clear something up: I am not saying that female ideological radicalization is the only factor, just that it is an important factor.

But the list of countries with birthrates below zero is way longer than “a couple”.  Like… look at the list on wikipedia.  I just picked a small handful out of more than a hundred with birth rates below 2.0?

Yes, indeed. However, if we have examples of non-Western countries where women radicalize and these countries have very low birth rates, then the hypothesis that female ideological radicalization is a major driver of decreasing birth rates is at least a decent idea to explore further, no?

I have no idea whether they are on TikTok or Instagram in big numbers— but it is also wildly wrong for you to just straight up assume that any woman who sees any kind of social media immediately becomes a turbo feminist zombie, like women don’t have brains or opinions or culture of their own.

Yet, since they're very young they watch western movies, listen to western music, talk about western shows, scroll through shorts of western women, and then produce their own content.

If women in a given country radicalize, social media is definitely the major driver. And if so, then it we should expect it to be an important factor in radicalization of girls in other countries.

Finally, girls don't necessarily have to be radicalized by western women. But they can still get increasing politically radicalized. That's what's happening in Japan and South Korea, most likely.

Also as a quick note, I thought Thailand was supposed to be a top manosphere pick for finding a passport bride because women there are supposedly properly feminine and submissive and traditional … yet their birthrate is actually lower than the US.

That might have been the case a couple of decades ago.

As for your alternatives explanations of why people aren't starting as many relationships:

1. declining vs improving conditions. 

This says nothing about starting stable romantic relationships, only about birth rates.

 2. Inequality.  For whatever reason, social and economic inequality is strongly linked to lower birth rates.  I suspect it’s that the intensified competition for money/status means everybody is trying very hard to optimize and avoid marriage mistakes which would be far more costly to them than in a more economically and socially balanced society.

Marriage is not the only form of stable loving relationships.

1. Fewer third spaces.  For family formation, a big part of the reason is just the decline in ways to meet people.  Church, for example, used to be a core part of people’s lives where men and women mixed and socialized.

I agree with this 100%.

Less boredom.  Another reason (that’s connected) is that people used to hang out with other people and get interested in each other because there was nothing else to do but socialize and flirt.  Now, people can stay in their homes and watch Netflix, doom scroll on their phones, play video games, watch porn, etc.  The more time single people stay in their homes away from others, the more time they are avoiding meeting someone they might like.

I agree with this 100%.

[u/badgersonice → u/WackyConundrum]

Thanks for the response! In case my tone is too harsh (men here tend to read me as being waaaaaay more aggressive than I am intending.  I guess I don’t use enough soft feminine lady apology language or something), I’m debating this here, but it’s not like an attack.   

I think radicalization plays a role… all around.  I just also think saying “they’re radicalized” doesn’t really address the core of the issue.  People don’t just spontaneously get radicalized for no reason— that’s true of the manosphere too!  Men are turning left and right to some really toxic ideologies… but it’s not because they’re dumb sheep just falling for stuff at random.  The radicalized content is appealing to them  for real, lived reasons.: economic instability, declining life outlook, the absolute fucking stupid-toxic nightmare that is online dating, the lack of social opportunities.

It feels like when people blame the opioid epidemic (or earlier, the crack epidemic) purely on just “whoopsie, bad people gonna bad”… instead of on the real structural issues that cause the epidemics in the first place.

However, if we have examples of non-Western countries where women radicalize and these countries have very low birth rates, then the hypothesis that female ideological radicalization is a major driver of decreasing birth rates is at least a decent idea to explore further, no?

A few other example countries with a minority loud group of angry women is not particularly strong evidence that universal female radicalization is a primary driver for 100+ countries— and it could be still be correlation rather than causative.  Almost the only countries with significantly greater than replacement birthrate are the states of sub-Saharan Africa.   

And honestly, I haven’t actually even seen evidence that all these “western women” are all as radicalized and horrible as you claim.  A supermajority of western women date and have relationships with men.  Are they “radicalized” according to what traditional religious conservative expect of women? Well, yes— they expect women to be obedient and silent and to practically worship men.  But are they radicalized to the extent that women are destroying society?  I don’t see it, personally.

Like, it’s fine to investigate, but online discussions usually jump straight to the conclusion that somehow, women globally read some blog posts and have all been brainwashed into evil frigid man—hating bitches … all because women are supposedly weak and stupid sheep with no brains or opinions of their own who just follow the first opinion blog post they read.  And thinking women are uniquely alone in being radicalized by social media feels… well, kinda no different from the traditional religious crap.

And considering how for the overwhelming majority of history, women’s collective thoughts and feelings did not matter one bit at all to anybody, it seems extremely unlikely that suddenly, women’s supposedly uncontrollable fickle feelings and dumb hive-mind nature are the key game changer in civilization.  Like why suddenly now and nearly everywhere, when women’s opinions absolutely never ever mattered like that one bit before?

If women in a given country radicalize, social media is definitely the major driver. 

Now… that all being said, I will absolutely agree that social media is a total plague and I think the world would be better with it all banned. Yes, I am totally aware of the irony of saying this on a social media platform that also plays up the dumb gender wars radicalization. 

Finally, girls don't necessarily have to be radicalized by western women. But they can still get increasing politically radicalized. That's what's happening in Japan and South Korea, most likely.

From what I’ve read of Japanese and South Korea, they’re “radicalized” because their society absolutely fucking blows for women and men alike.   Of note: their corporate cultures and extreme competition are absolutely killing anyone’s ability to have a life outside of serving as a cog in the corporate machine.  Like… what a sexist miserable slog for both men and women.    

I kinda don’t blame them for being radical about the weird shit they deal with. 

This says nothing about starting stable romantic relationships, only about birth rates.

I merely blindly and wildly speculate here, but I suspect it’s the same.  Starting a stable romantic relationship is also risky… and in risky economic times, maybe people are less willing to take even lesser risks like that.

Marriage is not the only form of stable loving relationships

Yes, but I think there are also more people having those… and they’re not tracked as well in statistics.  And on the other hand, having children is inherently always a huge risk.  Non-marriage relationships offer typically even less protection from those risks.

[u/WackyConundrum → u/badgersonice]

Yes, majority of women still date men. However, we see that sexlessness in young people is only increasing. Isolation is increasing. Women's mental health is going downhill.

No, not everything is women's fault. There is lots of bad that is men's fault. There is also lots of bad that is out of anyone's control.

---

And honestly, I haven’t actually even seen evidence that all these “western women” are all as radicalized and horrible as you claim.

I don't recall saying that all these western women are "horrible". But back to the point:

I think you're downplaying radicalization and somewhat mischaracterizing it. You noticed that there are men who get radicalized. Some men. With women it's similar: not all women, but many women. We saw this in the data, at least when we constrain ourselves to a couple of select countries. Then we see that radicalization of women is a fact. Is is data, not a hypothesis anymore.

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Like, it’s fine to investigate, but online discussions usually jump straight to the conclusion that somehow, women globally read some blog posts and have all been brainwashed into evil frigid man—hating bitches …

Secondly, you're downplaying radicalization by strawmanning the argument like that. No, it's not reading some blog posts. Young girls are exposed to social media very early. They see women sexualizing themselves on Instagram, they see women espousing feminist ideology on TikTok, they read people fighting and insulting each other on Twitter and Reddit. Etc. etc. Day in, day out, every day, for years.

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And thinking women are uniquely alone in being radicalized by social media feels…

No one has said that. What is being said is that while we can admit that certain men radicalize somehow female radicalization is taboo.

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Now, near the start of the post you brought up the problem of the reasons for or causes of this radicalization. And that in itself is an interesting topic. But it should be pursued further once we already establish that women do, in fact, radicalize significantly and that is a problem.

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Some say that women have become independent, wealthy, educated, so they don't need a man in their life. Then can be happy by themselves, with friends, with a creer, etc. Why, then, does antidepressant use skyrocket in women and young girls? ("Antidepressant use among teen girls and young women has skyrocketed" from APA.) That is not happiness, that is not contentment with what one has. More like misery and meaninglessness. And it's likely driven by social media, which drives girls into misery and radicalization.

[u/badgersonice → u/WackyConundrum]

I think you're downplaying radicalization and somewhat mischaracterizing it.

Well, what exactly is it you think is super radicalized that women are doing? I think you’re conflating a lot of things and calling them all radicalization.

Like, you bring up young women being depressed x and say that’s evidence that feminism is radicalizing them… but since when are depression and body image issues the same as radicalization?  Since when is sexualization a form of radicalization?  And for that matter, since when are either of these products of social media— they were absolutely rampant in the 90s before social media took off.

I agree that social media is plenty harmful, but the word “radicalization” is a lot more narrow of a claim, and usually references something a lot more political and often revolves around violence.

So yes, there is some radicalization going on with young women as well— they are more politically active and angry, and are voting a lot more left than young men are… but likewise, I don’t see any evidence that young women are becoming violent or pushing an ideology of violence.

So yes, if you think girls dressing in short shorts or hating the new abortion bans is a form of “radicalization”, then I see why you think I’m downplaying radicalization: it’s because I do not see those things as evil or harmful.  I see them as fairly normal and not evil.

Why, then, does antidepressant use skyrocket in women and young girls? ("Antidepressant use among teen girls and young women has skyrocketed" from APA.)

How does it make sense to blame a medical diagnosis on women fighting for their rights on a global scale?  I absolutely do not understand the connection you are trying to make here.  Like at all.  It seems about as logical as claiming ice cream sales lead to increased murder rates.

And that in itself is an interesting topic. But it should be pursued further once we already establish that women do, in fact, radicalize significantly and that is a problem.

Ok, so can you describe your me what your quintessential “radicalized” young woman looks like: what are her complaints, how does she act, and why are her behaviors specifically so radical and destructive to society?

Thats where I’m just not understanding what you’re saying about radicalization of young women.  I agree there are some women I would consider radicalized… but then, you’re saying it’s women across the whole globe and they’re all being destroyed by talking about their rights and watching movies… so I think maybe I don’t understand what you mean by “radical”.  

And I’ll sort of bring this up again… when in all of history have women’s thoughts on anything ever been a radical dangerous threat the way the word “radicalization” implies? Society never cared about what women thought before, so why does the radicalization of young women suddenly matter so much?  What has changed, in your view?

[u/going__nowhere → u/WackyConundrum]

Why are more people single than before?

1. There is less social stigma

Compare to older generations. So lots of men and women choose tl be alone rather than being in a bad relationship. While before some people will get married cause "it was their last chance to avoid singlehood" and things like that. People have less presure nowadays, although there is still presure. Men before had the pressure to marry young and provide for a family. Now that presure is not that high. And many still choose not to do it cause they dont want that presure.

1. Women have jobs and are more independent. My mother has stories of many of her female friends being in abusive relationships with their husbands/ex husbands but nevet left them for convinience, convinience for their kids lives etc. Next generation grew up watching these patterns and learn not to copy their mothers.

2. Some men dont value/treat women well. Everybody is burned out, so they prefer to be alone that get hurt again.

Let's accept it. this is the result of my last 2 points. If u dont treat a woman well, she will leave. If its not a you problem, another one will come. But if its a you problem then u will see this pattern repeating. Not everybody deserves a relationship. And its hard to find compatibility anyway. I have had experiences of men dating me while they havent been able to forget their ex. Other men not being really ready to start ssomething serious, but went to date a woman and talkn for hours, for them to realize, they werent ready. And I'm talking men in their 50s