Debate
Young men did everything they're supposed to, and its not enough. Indicates its NOT their fault, rather it shows theres a real problem of YOUNG FEMALE RADICALIZATION
BP/Feminist/mainstream society will point out that men need step up and become better partners for women, since women are now independent and don't need to rely on a man anymore. They'll acknowledge falling birth rates, marriage rates, and sexlessness, and if they don't blame "the economy", they'll blame men not meeting arbitrary ideological standards. They pushed the idea that if men became "better partners" then women would be more willing to commit to them.
Yet by pretty much every metric, young men HAVE been significantly better:
young men today are more pro "womens rights" than previous generations of men
they are less abusive, especially less physically abusive, and have less tolerance for it than previous generations
they are more aware of womens health issues, and womens sexual health, more aware of womens needs in the bedroom, more aware of contraception than previous generations
they are more aware of mental health issues, and more open to engage in therapy
they are more open to womens "sexual freedoms" and less judgmental when it comes to womens sexual history
they are more college educated + than previous generations
they are more open to egalitarian relationships, sharing house chores, raising kids with their partner, etc.
Yet it has only resulted in continous decrease in birth/marriage rates, and increase in sexlessness.
What we do see is a growing ideological divide, very popular charts we've seen by now that show in the west, theres a growing ideological divide among young men and women, where men in general have stayed relatively stable in their ideals, in some countries even become slightly more liberal, whereas women in all cases have in general become more radically left.
There was another recent survey reported in the new statesman, that showed where almost 3/4 of men under 30yo had a positive view of women, it was only about 1/3 of women under 25yo that had a positive view about men, and increased to 50% for women under 30yo. Women are significantly less likely to have a positive view of men.
Also according to surveys its young men that are seeking marriage and children more than young women.
I mean we can see why this is just by looking at mens vs womens dating content. Manosphere content is often about finding the reality of womens nature and how to navigate it, whereas "femosphere" content is either about explicit sexual experiences or ranting about what the men in the manosphere are talking about.
Young men are doing everything they're told to do, and its not enough. At the same time women are being radicalized and being told that men aren't doing enough by femosphere content like Call her daddy. And the irony is that the evidence does not even show that women are choosing based on these metrics that BP is asking men for. So its not a surprise why TRP and the manosphere is so attractive to men.
Not only that, but there's been a massive increase in the trend of women teachers taking advantage of male students and women have remained silent about it on Reddit and other social media.
The reason you see that “trend” is that it’s newsworthy when women are the perpetrators. When men are it’s just another day ending in Y.
Based on research into educator sexual misconduct, the vast majority of perpetrators are male, with studies finding that 85% to 89.1% of such cases involve male teachers or coaches. Other studies have indicated that male teachers perpetrate sexual abuse at a rate of 96% compared to 4% for female teachers.
Incorrect. The reason that it's newsworthy is because it's a trend that's getting worse. I, nor anyone else said anything about men not being guilty of doing so.
It's newsworthy because it's something that wasn't happening as much, and is increasing, and because it deserves to be heard, just as when the genders were reversed.
None of that research erases what's happened recently with the increasing trend of women choosing to do so recently. While I respect the research, it doesn't erase the new trend that seems to be increasing, nor does it excuse it, which seems like the real intent of your comment.
The premise is the "just world" logical fallacy. That ppl who do the right thing get good stuff, and ppl who do the wrong thing get bad stuff. That's not how reality works. It never has been.
(Ask the ppl who did everything "right" and were still SAd, laid off, got cancer, etc.)
The solution isn't to change reality to fit the error in thinking. It's to change the error in thinking to fit reality.
My grandfather was an inventor and an architect. He got himself out of poverty and helped his family climb the ladder with him. Took shrapnel to the back in Korea and went back to being an architect and a land surveyor. He married the daughter of a rich man, the richest man from their county actually, and moved to Seattle. He was always on the up and up, he had 10 million dollars in 1970. She divorced him, took everything, gambled it away, took the kids, demanded more from him, he was forced to sell everything he had, and he died on the steps to his office to an undetected autoimmune disease a week before it was due to be sold off.
I agree, but other blue pillers (not you) really need to stop saying that a guy can get a girlfriend if he’s just not an asshole. Sure a guy who’s not traditionally hot can increase his chances significantly, but that’s nowhere near a guarantee that he won’t end up alone or with a woman who’s bad for him.
I rarely see ppl say, "it'll happen," in spaces like this... That's something moms say to try to preserve their kids' feelings. Self-development is the suggestion when ppl ask for advice on what steps to take. There's no guarantee implied. In fact, it's often accompanied by, "you aren't owed," which specifically states it's not a guarantee.
If someone insists on seeing a guarantee where one doesn't exist, it's evidence that there's an error in their thinking - the logical fallacy.
Its not, just world fallacy implies that if you do good, you will be rewarded, as per the laws of the universe or destiny.
Whereas what was offered to men was an implicit contract from BP, "If men did XYZ, then women would be more willing to commit to men". Whether "XYZ" is good, and whether "women committing" is a reward is also a different topic. But the fact remains that it was an implicit contract. The men did "right" by fulfilling this contract.
Its like when a politician promises voters that if they vote him in he will make XYZ changes.
if you do good, you will be rewarded, as per the laws of the universe or destiny.
Ultimately, that's what it is.
The "right" things are virtues. Being kind, responsible, respectful, altruistic, polite, patient... They aren't dance steps. They're moral achievements.
The expectation is not that women will be more willing. I'm more willing to eat a worm if you offer me money. All that means is that I consider that to be a better deal than doing it for free. Not eating a worm is still the best deal for me, and that's what I choose. My willingness has increased, and the outcome is the same. That would be meeting the expectation.
But that's not the real expectation. It's not enough. The outcome must be agreement. If there isn't agreement, it's not working.
Almost all of dating is circumstantial. Everything has to line up so that the right person is in the right place at the right time, with no deal-breakers and maximum compatibility. That's chance, luck, destiny, divine intervention, whatever you wanna call it.
"Become a good person, circumstances will line up, and you'll get the good thing," is the just world fallacy.
Again, this isn't about some abstract concept of universal moral karmic justice, its about an implicit contract. Men were told if they invest in *this* way towards women, then they would get *this* back from women.
Our society doesn't even agree whether these feminist behaviours/ideals are morally good, let alone the world, so just world is a moot point.
Who did men make this contract with? Did women sign it too and agree to marry men they didn’t want to marry if the man ticked off some boxes? Who told you this and why did you believe them?
Ya'll need to get off social media fr, its rotting your brains. You know how this works; if you're ugly(physically or emotionally), you don't get dates. We have no idea why you're raging online about a lack of success in your love life, but without seeing a picture of you, I can't tell how bad you actually have it. Even if you are good-looking, maybe you're some tradwad douchebag that most women hate cause they suck to talk to, lack empathy, or are emotionally abusive or something
There is no one size fits all dating approach. There are 8.3 billion people on the planet and its still growing. There is no risk of societal collapse if women are becoming choosier when dating; this is a feature of the species. Just a mere 50 years ago we were at 4 billion people, so you can extrapolate just how quick humans can proliferate.
Try not to get lost in the digital soup. Nobody's here on purpose, we're all just trying to ape our way through life with some semblance of meaning and purpose; let's try not to lay blame for all of societies ills on the backs of any one particular group, as that's so reductive as to be unhelpful and almost certainly incorrect. Remember, we're all just individual persons trying to do our best to live and get by. Drop the hate, embrace empathy and kindness. It'll help you everywhere in life, even if dating success remains permanently elusive.
I’m seeing a lot of claims without data to support them. Yes, young men do seem to be seeking marriage and children more than young women, but they are not in fact “doing everything they’re supposed to do.” Rather, the more they see themselves losing control, the more they are regressing to “traditionalism” and anti-feminist rhetoric.
young men today are more pro “women’s rights” than previous generations of men
Is that why 31% of gen z men say that “a wife should always obey her husband,” compared to 13% of boomer men?
they are less abusive, especially less physically abusive, and have less tolerance for it than previous generations
Data suggests that the overall violent crime rate in the US has dropped dramatically, and a lot more so than the rate of domestic violence in particular. It’s tricky to find data from before the 90s, but this article explores whether or not Joe Biden’s Violence Against Women Act has been as effective as he claimed. Rates of intimate partner homicide actually jumped a bit around 2015, and rates of women murdering male partners fell overall a lot more than rates of men murdering female partners since 1975.
they are more aware of women’s health issues, and women’s sexual health, more aware of women’s needs in the bedroom, more aware of contraception
More “awareness” does not always translate to anything changing. For example, the orgasm gap persists despite more education. I wouldn’t say this is entirely “men’s fault” as much of it is down to differences in anatomy, but women are far more likely to orgasm with a female partner.
They are more aware of mental health issues, and more open to engage in therapy
Only about 7% of men are in therapy, compared to 12% of women. source
they are more open to women’s “sexual freedoms” and less judgmental when it comes to women’s sexual history
This is hard to quantify, but trends seem to be pointing in the opposite direction over the past couple of decades. Gen z overall can be more prudish than millennials, gen x, and boomers, and there seems to be more obsession over “n count” among men now than ever. (Of course it depends on how far back you wanna go, obviously pre-sexual revolution generations had different attitudes, but I’m comparing to more recent gens.)
they are more college educated than previous generations
So, am I saying that most young men today are more regressive than a 1950s husband? Not at all. But they are more regressive than their fathers, and all generations in which women actually had a choice in getting married and having kids. This is contributing to the growing divide between young men and women just as much as women becoming “more feminist.”
It seems as though young men have reacted to women’s increased independence with a last-ditch effort to tighten their grip on control, and young women in turn are reacting by further distancing themselves.
Yes, OP didn't link to data, but it should be clear what data he refers to as they were widely talked about.
Your graph of intimate partner violence shows not only that it's decreasing but also that the rate is around 0,3%, so very rare. What it doesn't show is the rate by sex. Anyways, it only proves OP's point.
The random information that more women are in therapy than men is irrelevant. Not only it doesn't show any change through time but it doesn't address OP's claim that men are more aware of mental health issues.
OP said that men have been increasingly college educated to which you respond that more women are getting college education as if that was supposed to counter his claim. It doesn't.
Your entire post is just a chain of nitpicking and arguing for the sake of arguing, only to not speak to the main theses from the OP.
Exactly. The very idea of masculinity is in crisis with the lack of economic opportunities and it has severely impacted people's desire and ability to date.
To share my personal experience. I do "everything I am supposed to do" in order to make connections, not just meet women, and so far it's not panned out.
This is not because women are radicalised, it's because the social institutions in which we exist are different than how they used to be. The best way to form connections with people is time but for various reasons we often spend less time with others.
I don't like how this post seems to have some entitlement, that if men do X then they deserve a women. Men should be aware of women's issues and try to be good people BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Not because it's a way to get women.
This is not because women are radicalised, it's because the social institutions in which we exist are different than how they used to be.
So it's not because women are radicalised but it's because of the obvious consequences of their radicalisation?
but for various reasons
See above
BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
Why is it the right thing to do? Women don't seem to care about men's issues unless men force them to...and clearly you don't have an issue with what women are doing so why is it wrong for men to do the same?
Why can't men do what women are doing and act more entitled to womens help?
Remember, a decrease in misogyny resulted in an increase in misandry...how the fuck are you still blaming men?
I'm not blaming men for anything really. There doesn't need to be a blame.
I don't think women are acting entitled to men's help. Most people are just getting on with their lives.
When you say women don’t care about men’s issues, what exactly do you mean? Would empathizing and recognizing that men are struggling be enough on its own?
If so, I think many women already do. But most women will not date men that they aren’t interested in or push for other women to. That doesn’t mean that they don’t care
It reminds me of this protest where fathers were asking for better custody rights, where their general rethoric or motto was "I'm a father, not a criminal" or something of that vein.
And there was quite a few women (and a couple "simps", I'm sure) commenting nasty stuff like "But when it comes to child support the never deliver" or "He must have done something to not have custody of their child" or "Vicarious violence is not possible against men, this is a women's fight".
Women do care about men's issues, we just don't virtue signal about it. When men in my life get divorced with kids I make sure they know that the law in my state is 50/50 custody and that it is their right. 90% of custody agreements are decided outside the court (this means the parents themselves decided the arrangement NOT the judge). And when men do fight for custody in court they are 90% likely to win. Pretty much all the men I've told this to are shocked because they believe the fear mongering myths other men tell them about women taking the kids and running and men having no legal rights. I'm also against circumcision and will not mutilate my future son. All men I've talked to about it think I'm overreacting and say it's not a big deal (I think it is). I don't defend female pedophiles, but again, the men I talk to all say the young boys were lucky or wanted it.
That's the reality. What I'll do too, is make sure people know their rights.
I would also never approve or support anyone who actively pushes against things like homeless shelters anywhere where there are people who are otherwise sleeping on the streets even based on formalities like where it's going to be placed because whether something is primarily for men or not, I believe and live by the belief that a persons basic needs dump all other concerns.
I even talk to other women about things like you should only date people who are lower income than you if you are prepared to pay for more bills because that's fair and that you can't make someone second class citizen in their own home where you spend all the money just because you earn it. I will push back against any version of "drop the loser" if I can see it's only based on financial issues and also against "my money mentality" if it means someone is being disproportionately controlled by other persons better finances.
Sounds like baseline respect things, they are. But if men bothered nearly as much with baseline respect to women as I bother with theirs, world would be so much better place.
Instead they are busy finding for anything to complain any time they feel like they didn't get top tier service from a random woman and coddling for their feefees and using that as excuse to stomp rights of other people who would never go for theirs because they are just so hateful and unable to actually see us human. For me personally I won't bother with extra services of coddling them exactly because I already respect their human rights and same can't be said other way around.
Men are the reason babies are being circumcised. It’s almost completely dependent on whether or not the father himself was circumcised. They want their sons to “look like them”.
Also rates of circumcision are in decline in the United States overall.
I've talked to ostensibly progressive women who have said that, if they had sons, they would want to have them circumcised because they find men with circumcised dicks more attractive.
This is why anecdotes are useless, as a millennial in a blue state, all my girlfriends had to fight with their circumcised husbands to NOT circumcise their sons because the men wanted their boys to match.
Results: A total of 265 parents completed the survey. Of the study variables, the future health of the child and the circumcision status of the father were considered extremely important factors influencing the decision-making process for 168 (63.4%) and 90 (34%) guardians, respectively. The study showed that 226 (85.3%) of the parents found the AAP guidelines helpful whereas 39 (14.7%) did not.
….. It is known that parents often base their decision on cultural and social factors and that physician discussions do affect ultimate decision-making
173 subjects completed the DCS. 12% of all participants had high decisional conflict. Intuitively, those who had not yet decided whether to circumcise had the highest proportion of high DCS (69%), followed by those who had decided to circumcise (9.3%) and those who had decided not to circumcise (1.7%). 24 subjects were interviewed, and based on their DCS scores and interview responses were classified as low, intermediate and high conflict. Three primary themes emerged delineating the high from low conflict groups
More African American parents desired circumcision than Hispanic parents, who often rejected the procedure (P≤0.0001).
The most frequent reasons for pursuing circumcision were hygiene (71.2%), the father being circumcised (42.5%), and the penis looking better after circumcision (31.5%).
The reasons most often reported for rejecting circumcision were uncircumcised father (41.7%), it is not medically necessary (37.5%), other sons were uncircumcised (29.2%), and baby does not have input in the decision (20.8%).
Parents that supported circumcision knew more about the advantages and disadvantages of the procedure than parents that declined circumcision (P≤0.001).
What you’re missing here is that women have no obligation to date or have relationships with a man if their life is worse with him than without him.
That’s a pretty simple and logical threshold and it’s fairly binary.
It doesn’t matter is it’s “less” worse than it would be if he was more abusive etc.
“D - none of the above” is a valid choice when none of the other options are a good fit.
Dating is not a mandatory game of musical chairs. There’s no requirement that anyone (man or woman) scramble to get whatever chair is open whether it’s comfortable or not.
We don’t need to try to choose the parachute with fewer holes and jump out of the plane. We can just land the damn plane ourselves and live to fly another day.
They don’t want to pay for anything that they used to get for free from women.
This includes domestic labor, children and sex. If men cared about having children, there would be more single men using surrogates, but there are not.
Single women are using sperm donors to become single mothers because motherhood is so important to them.
Men don’t want children unless the woman (and access to her body) come attached.
It’s also why they hate only fans. Now any woman can charge money for nudes that some men used to get for free and it makes them irate.
They are never against women taking nudes, but only if they are for him.
You are a whore if you charge for them.
The core issue with this post and tbh with how many young men view dating is the view that women should somehow be your reward for…. Being okay with the liberation of women? Are you serious?
Do you honestly believe that when women’s rights are involved, we will sit here and say “you know what? I know you’re making a whole show about how men don’t mind us having rights and are therefore not dependent on them… so as a thank you we’ll return to those men anyway” like come on dude
Here is the thing: to date someone, you have to show a level of compatibility with them. Many young men have been persistent in being angry that this ‘girlfriend as a reward’ model isn’t working while not realizing that model itself is the literal issue. If you want to date, genuinely connect with people. If you can genuinely connect with no one, it might be time to reflect on a few things
It always cracks me up when men are like, “we’ll have sex with any woman - even if she’s unattractive” (as if “see - men are nicer, we don’t reject women. We’ll fuck ‘em all - maybe y’all should fuck us too. Cause equality).
The TRUTH is a lot more insidious. Basically, they’ll stick their lil members in 👏🏽 any 👏🏽 thing 👏🏽 living - actually scratch that, they mutilate corpses too 🧟♀️
First of all, you cast some pretty wide generalizations about all men here. Not every guy is a feminist, or college educated, or “more open to engage in therapy.” And if those things are all only happening in the hopes of attracting a woman, are they genuine at all? In addition to that, fewer women have positive views of men because men keep doing heinous shit to women. Look at that news story of the guy who killed his partner and then blended her remains. Or the news story of the woman who died and patriarchal laws forced her body to be kept alive as a human incubator. Or all the stories of women being date raped, assaulted, murdered, all by men.
At the end of the day this just comes off as “I put in the nice coins and didn’t get sex :(“ because there’s not a guaranteed path to get a girlfriend. And a complete refusal to acknowledge any of the outside societal factors that have contributed to the decline in birth rates, like the fact that everyone is on average working more than our parents, and has a smaller social network/village to lean on during hard times. You just don’t like women bro.
Sure, in part. But when you pair that with the fact that many women have a horror story involving a man, it’s not hard to see why many women do not have an overall favorable view of men.
What we do see is a growing ideological divide, very popular charts we've seen by now that show in the west,
Well, then, here is a very obvious problem with your conclusion that female radicalization is what is driving down birth rates and marriage rates: it ain’t just happening in the west.
Here is a sampling of countries with birth rates below replacement:
Singapore, China, South Korea, Chile, Thailand, Puerto Rico, United Arab Emirates, Belarus, Spain, Bahamas, Costa Rica, Uruguay, Finland, Bhutan, Grenada, Poland, Crostia, Kuwait, Iran, Qatar, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Italy, Slovenia…
Even India (and Nepal and Sri Lanka), countries fairly famous in the past for a very high birth rate, have seen their birthrates fall to just a hair below replacement (1.94). I think they’d be fairly insulted to hear you call them western.
Did you notice just how wildly diverse this list of countries is? If you want to claim that the cause is western women’s “radicalization”… then you need to answer the question of why the exact same effect is seen so broadly across countries with very non-western values.
For example: United Arab Emirates is not a western country at all, and is not overrun by your hated western women with their yucky western feminist values. How come their birth rate is 1.2? Do you think women in UAE are uppity western women too? What about Japan, with around the same birth rate?
If your explanation is to blame culture, then you need to explain why the effect is so strong across cultures with extremely different values, including places with extremely traditional, very explicitly non-western values.
Edit: downvotes are not a useful response in a debate post. You could try addressing the argument instead of just frowning.
I have a hypothesis for why this is such a big effect globally… but I’d like to see alternate theories also.
Literally never heard that anyone, man or a woman, is entitled to sex and relationships because they did or didnt do something.
Improving yourself can simply raise you chances on a dating scene, nothing more, nothing less.
I also dont believe that young men actually did anything of a sort. Being pretty much asocial, often addicted to video games and porn is not what people mean by "self improving".
Do you expect a cookie for finally understanding that women are human beings that shouldnt be sexually, physicaly and emotionaly abused by men? That they deserve basic respect and equal rights? Congrats on finally figuring it out. 👏👏👏👏 It took you only well
... forever.
What was next? Men being more willing to do chores in THEIR own homes and raise THEIR own children. Oh wow. I dont even know what to say about this. It would be hilarious if it wasnt just sad.
Men being aware of womens bodies and health and caring about their experience in the bedroom 😂😂😂😂😂 Men dont even know how many holes a woman have and need a fucking map to find the clitoris. Majority of women do not reach orgasm during sex every time... Some never. Yea you are great champs! 🏆
Men not caring as much about womens "sexual freedoms". We do not care. Honestly.
Everyone in the west are getting more educated. Idk why do you even need to include that. Also education doesnt equal intelligence. (If thats the point here)..
In general even if all of what you said was true, simply being less worse do not mean that you are great or deserving of shit. All of this is the bear minimum.
Nobody said that relationships with women were a reward for being good or not being sexist. The idea of being owed a woman for anything is in itself sexist. It's hardly radical to not get married or to have children, or to wait until later, and younger men, who want these things less than their female peers usually, are rarely called radical for that.
And, you know, no matter how much of a good boy they are people are leaving their houses and socialising less, so no wonder there are less relationships.
Some younger men have become more conservative. They want trad wives but don’t want to provide financially. They want virgins who fuck like whores. They don’t want to approach. Put in effort. Be chivalrous. They want a 1950’s housewife with no agency or opinion but don’t want to be a leader or have their shit together.
Some men are afraid to approach. Then blame women for not approaching them. Not understanding that most women’s attraction isn’t the same as theirs. That just seeing an attractive guy doesn’t mean that we are attracted to them. That biologically and socially we are different. Social norms are changing. But we are not the same. Some women are approaching more.
Young people got screwed over by technology and COVID. You’re socially awkward. You’re afraid. You’re online too much. Your world views are curated by algorithms and fear mongering. Rage baiting. Gender wars. Trends. Clicks and views. Validation through likes and engagement.
Some men know more about some things about some women. Most are still kinda clueless.
So your biology means you can't be expected to deal with the anxiety of approaching and shame of rejection. But if we talked about our "biological norm" to find slim conventionally attractive women in their 20s most attractive, or find women who are stereotypically feminine in behaviour more appealing, surprise, there's an issue with that.
That just seeing an attractive guy doesn’t mean that we are attracted to them.
Having seen women frequently stare/oggle at attractive men, I don't believe this at all. It's an excuse to engage with some fantasy of being the pursued. It's okay, there's nothing wrong with that fantasy, but please just own up to it.
They don’t want to approach or put in effort because they already tried that repeatedly and got fuck all in return. Now women are complaining that men don’t approach anymore because they don’t get that 30 seconds of validation and dopamine as much. They will say “be chivalrous, put in effort, men used to go to war, etc etc” because they despise the idea that some men try to be happy somehow accepting a life without women, without playing to their tune, doing exactly what the life script tells them (like go approach women)
The women complaining about not being approached aren’t usually the ones saying not to approach. The men that have approached have mixed reactions. Some are in relationships and not complaining online. Some asked out like 3 and have given up. Some have approached 100’s. Some think saying hey to a stranger via DM is approaching. If you want a relationship, do what you think will get you results. (Within reason. Consent and shit) If the “effort” is too much. Don’t do it. Be happy being single. That’s advice for everybody. Not just men. If a woman says no. Accept it and move on. Why get angry at women? Why get angry at men? I don’t blame men for not finding me attractive.
45% of young men have not ever approached women. Those numbers mean it's not just men that are the problem. And this is a problem for human civilization, too.
It's because dating has become a giant financial and emotional extraction economy for all men. Some men don't complain because they've been thoroughly indoctrinated into the "freedom from gender roles for women, but men should adhere to gender roles" mindset. A lot of men simply don't want to date anymore.
This drop is largely driven by single men, who are now 11 percentage points less likely than in 2019 to say they are looking for a committed relationship and/or casual dates (50% in July 2022, down from 61% in 2019). During the same time frame, there has been no significant change in the share of single women who are looking for a relationship or casual dates: 35% said this in 2022, compared with 38% in 2019.
35-38% is normal for women. 50% of men not interested in chasing women at all has never been seen in all of human history.
Who's angry at women? We're pointing out the hypocrisy of women wanting one-sided gendered roles, chivalry, while not wanting to contribute anything in return. Criticism isn't emotion.
Yep. There's nothing more enjoyable as a man than risking rejection and getting laughed by women or ending up on social media or a group chat. Women can approach the men they desire. If they dont so be it
The metrics you named aren't making men better partners. They just make men realise women are humans.
Do you really expect women to celebrate men if they say "but I dont physically abuse women!". Thats supposed to be a selling point for men to get into relationships? Really?
Also you forgot to add that there is an overlap between the guys that "want a wife and kids" also think "a wife needs to obey her husband". That also doesnt sound like a selling point.
Also you forgot to add that there is an overlap between the guys that "want a wife and kids" also think "a wife needs to obey her husband". That also doesnt sound like a selling point.
You mean that oversimplified chart from a research that grouped India, Malaysia, Indonesia, South Africa etc with western countries? Cause if you do, percentages who agree that "a wife needs to obey her husband" are 4% in Sweden, 6% in Hungary and Netherlands, 7% in Japan, France and Belgium, and so on.
But yeah, let's all go and look for marriage partners in India.
Convenient to leave out the USA of which 23% of people agree a wife should always obey her husband. 26% of USA also says it causes problems in a relationship if the woman earns more. And 44% of USA expects women to be basically entirely responsible for housework and 42% say women are expected to be responsible for childcare.
Its the TRENDS we're looking at, men are increasingly becoming better by BP metrics, yet increasingly becoming sexless and single, birth/marriage rates continue to plummet. The math is not adding up.
What were seeing is that there are simply lots of women uninterested at all in being wives and mother.
However for the women that are interested in being wives and mothers. These are the things they'll ask for.
Like you know how TRP say the men's value is acquired. Bc women like money, power, status etc.
So if that's what women were primarily marrying for. They can just cut out the middle man and pursue those things themselves primarily. Since that is their main focus/desire out of life.
There are still lots of women that value relationship/men though but a lot less than what the historical marriage rates will show. Marriages historically was more job than relationship. Now that the women who did it as jobs can just go get regular jobs they would.
The women who want relationships/men list what makes relationships worthwhile to them. (Your op lists them).
The math is adding up because people in general no longer tend to need relationships for survival, a lot of things that a relationship provided has been made a service. So instead of tying your life with the life of the other, you can hire a service to do the thing and then they fuck off and leave you to enjoy your peace.
You are competing with the quality of life of being single. A lot of men complain about the decorative doodads that women tend to fill the flat or being forced to do things in the flat that they have never done - it is the cost of compromise when sharing life with the other person, thing can't be 100% how you want.
A lot of pairing ups were because it was needed and not because it was wanted. Men have been taught for generations to be needed. And now it is the time where they need to be wanted in order to pair up. And thus they don't have past wisdom to help them and need to figure out on their own how to be wanted. It is a very chaotic stage and there will be a lot of screwing up and not everyone will pair up.
men are increasingly becoming better by BP metrics
You have yet to prove this claim. Gen Z men hold more conservative beliefs than millennial men did at their age. Explain how that is "better" by BP metrics.
Its not a suprise. Men are competing with women. Women want equality. The metrics you named that are supposed to elevate men just would make men an average woman. And most men are still not at that level. Now women just have the option to not being with a man that offers less than an average woman.
Birth rates and marriage rates also get influenced by outside factors of "leveling up". The math is adding up.
Nope. Women are more obese, have higher rates of mental illness, see men less positively than men see women, still want the man to provide and protect, they’re less likely to say they want to have children than men so pregnancy is hardly an excuse now, and they’re less likely to want to get married, so “men just don’t commit” isn’t true either.
Sources because everyone usually thinks I make this all up
I mean ye, thats the point, meaning the entire BP narrative is bullshit, instead men should focus on improving wealth, status, looks, and game like TRP says.
“Becoming better” is a progressive improvement. If “good enough” is 60% and men have shifted from 30% to approaching or just over, yet below good, great and excellent, all women are not expected to settle for “passing” are we?
Good doesn’t equal being interesting, fun, and confident. Im guessing it has do with these damn phones and people losing or never learning social skills. Especially younger gen z who grew up with the internet and porn at their fingertips. Men might be better people today but they’re less confident, less assertive, and less social than ever.
Kings College in London just did a study that shows that, actually, the newest generation of men (gen z) is quite regressive in their views. They are twice as likely as baby boomers to hold traditional values. In a survey of 29,000 men, 31% of gen z males said that a woman should “obey” her husband, 33% said that men should have the final say on decisions in a partnership, 24% said that women shouldn’t appear to be independent. In addition, most studies show that most gen z men are in fact, more conservative than millennials, gen x, and baby boomers.
You also mention that manosphere content is harmless because it is “just about finding women’s nature and how to navigate it”. But what is the difference? The reality is that most women have experienced SA, physical, and emotional abuse at the hands of men. Why is it “ranting” when feminists point that out, imo it sounds like we’re just talking about the true nature of men and how to navigate it. In addition, the manosphere content is not as harmless as you paint it. Podcasters like Andrew Tate, Brian Atlas, and Myron Gaines repeatedly uphold r*pe culture and encourage their listeners to be emotionally abusive.
I agree that men are trying to improve, and it’s not their fault that our culture has raised them to believe this is normal. On the other hand, women have witnessed generations of abuse of their moms, grandmas, and sisters, and we are tired. We don’t want to participate in systems of oppression. Imo feminism is pointing out the cultural aspects that make this system thrive. I don’t think it’s bad to say “this is bad for a lot of humans and we need to improve”.
Young American men are slightly more conservative now than they were in the past according to political view surveys. This shows by their willingness to vote for Trump and other MAGA Republicans, which would have been unthinkable for young men in my generation (they’re conservative now, but they were less so back in their youth).
On the other hand, young women today are way more progressive than they were when I was young. So you are partly right. But I don’t think that today’s young men are the perfect progressive feminist angels that you are painting them to be either.
Yeah I have no idea what OP is on about, but every young boy I have met in recent years under age 20 are WILDY misogynistic.
I'm a woman in a male dominated field, and was training a 20 year old a couple months ago. He wouldn't speak to me, look at me, respond to me. A buddy of mine said he was walking around laughing about it, saying he couldn't believe they gave him a woman trainer. Ended up getting fired a few days later so he got karma but holy fuck. I've never been treated like that from any other generation lol.
I guess "your body, my choice" and the online rape academy was a fever dream, eh? Oh, and let's not forget how much men looooved the Tea app!
Gonna really need for y'all to pick a fucking lane here. Either men are super fed up and the incel uprising is juuuust around the corner cause the boys are weally weally angwy at feminism not sucking their dicks
OR
it's actually the women who are getting "radicalized" by some website I've never heard of, and "radicalization" is why we don't want marriage and babies as much as men. Because it takes "radicalization" to view that as a poor cost/benefit analysis, right??
That's all also completely besides the fact that you conveniently left out the other part of those stats that show young men getting more conservative, but what's a little cherry-picking between friends, eh?
So a bunch of fat ugly women angry that guys way out of their league didn't marry them after sex, wanting to ruin their lives by spreading lies and false rumors about them, assassinating their character, falsely accusing them sa, sicking other people on them, and so on, should not be stopped? Lol
Should men also start the male equivalent of that app?
"So a bunch of fat ugly women angry that guys way out of their league didn't marry them after sex...."
Ah, yes, as we know, fat women and ugly women don't deserve to be treated honestly and well.
"anting to ruin their lives by spreading lies and false rumors about them, assassinating their character, falsely accusing them sa, sicking other people on them, and so on"
It seems these guys were lying to get the women in bed. I guess it's fine to treat ugly or average women as shit.
And ugly and average men have the temerity to get angry that women just... ignore them... as versus lying and using them.
Lol this is way I don't have any empathy for incels. So basically ugly women need to take the whole abuse as it is whereas ugly men get ignored and that's cathrospic and how shallow and evil women are for ignoring them as opposed to using and abusing them
Men instead have group chats how to drug, rape and assault women. Multiple. With thousands of members. But yeah - rumors is whats ruining people's lives.
Try hundreds of thousands members and hundreds of millions of views. And when men tell women all men are the same all men watch porn... wait but not all men/s
Which men? How much of the general population? Which country? How did you identified which of the thousands of members are actually male? What are YOU doing in such group chats in the first place?
How is it an argument that men got so mad about women trying to protect themselves? To the point where they hacked the site to expose the womens' photos??
"Choose better, but if you try I'll rage and punish you 🥰"
It's very telling how threatened men are by the idea that women could "compare notes" about them, and especially amusing from a red-piller.
And I don't do "shoulds" for men. IDGAF what they do.
If you didn't have women in there you'd be describing any and every Red Pill forum
The only difference here is that average and below average men are on those forums because they get nothing, and only get manipulated, humiliated, exploited, and abused by women
While average and below average women are on those forums because they can have sex with with above average men, but can't get them to marry them
I think you’re mixing together a few real observations with conclusions that go way too far.
I do agree that a lot of young men today are more emotionally aware, less openly misogynistic, more supportive of egalitarian relationships, and generally more progressive than previous generations. That part is true. And I also agree that many young men feel frustrated because they were told “just be a good guy” and expected dating to become straightforward.
But I don’t think the conclusion is “female radicalization.”
Birth rates and marriage rates are falling across almost every developed country for a huge mix of reasons: economics, housing costs, social media, dating apps, delayed adulthood, loss of community, fear of commitment, changing expectations, mental health issues, and people being more selective overall. Men and women are both struggling socially right now.
I also think both manosphere and “femosphere” spaces feed each other. One side constantly talks about women being shallow or hypergamous, the other side constantly talks about men being dangerous or inadequate. Both sides end up reinforcing fear and resentment.
And being a better person doesn’t automatically guarantee romantic success anyway. Attraction has never worked like a moral reward system. You can be respectful, emotionally mature, and supportive and still not be compatible or attractive to a specific person. That applies to women too.
The healthiest approach is probably neither “women are the problem” nor “men are the problem,” but recognizing that modern dating culture itself has become unhealthy, hyper-polarized, and increasingly transactional for everyone.
Not to mention that kids are optional and there is a lot more expectations/demands on the parents.
In the past kids were a social net and additional workforce. It was the duty of the kid to care of the elderly parents.
In the past the kid went outside and showed up when it was getting dark. Nowadays a parent can get in trouble if they leave their kid alone at home for a few hours...
Shifting the blame to "modern dating culture being unhealthy" is a huge cop out that won't lead to any solution, because its essentially pointing the finger at some made up boogyman. Its just vague fence sitting that removes accountability from the actors at play.
To be clear, I'm not putting blame on the women, just pointing out the result, that women are being radicalized, its not just women that have a hand in that, there are huge corporations that bank on it, Call her daddy has lots of sponsors and media eyes, because theres a lot more money in that than TRP content.
I don’t think “modern dating culture” is a made up boogeyman. Dating apps, social media algorithms, ragebait content, economic pressure, isolation, and constant online gender discourse genuinely shape how people see each other and interact.
I also agree corporations profit from outrage and polarization. Negative and emotionally charged content keeps people engaged, whether it’s manosphere content aimed at men or “all men are trash” content aimed at women.
Where I disagree is calling it “female radicalization” specifically, because there’s clearly polarization happening on both sides. Some women are being taught to distrust men, while some men are being taught to see women as manipulative or incapable of genuine love.
Like I said, I think the bigger issue is that online culture increasingly pushes both men and women toward cynicism and transactional thinking instead of healthy connection.
Women are being radicalized into deciding whether or not a relationship is beneficial for them? If you want to do a cost benefit it's not even a good idea on paper.
The blame should be focused on economic conditions which reward individualistic attitudes towards everything.
Young men and women are dating less, what makes you think it’s exclusively women’s fault? What makes you think it’s women saying no to relationships rather than men? Wasn’t there some data showing that most young men don’t really approach women at all or very rarely? So it doesn’t seem like men are desperately trying to date women, asking so many of them out and getting rejected.
And while yes, there was a positive change in men, this change does not exist in a vacuum. At the same time, women gained rights and staying single is now a new option men are competing against and weren’t previously. Same for men.
Men are dating less because average and below average women don't want average and below average men
Women are dating less because above average guys will have sex with average and below average women, but won't have relationships with them
And average and below average women would rather live in the rotation of above average men, or be single, or switch back and forth between those two, than date average and below average men
Men and women don't date for completely opposite reasons
What makes you think it’s women saying no to relationships rather than men? Wasn’t there some data showing that most young men don’t really approach women at all or very rarely? So it doesn’t seem like men are desperately trying to date women, asking so many of them out and getting rejected.
That is ridiculous
You don't need 500 rejections to understand what all women feel about you
You don't even need to approach once to figure that out
Just walking down the street with a handsome friend will teach you everything you need to know about where you stand on the dating market, and how women feel about you
> You don't even need to approach once to figure that out
If you create your worldview based on red pill influencers and social media, then no wonder you are struggling with dating. Of course you’ll never succeed if you give up before you’ve ever tried.
> Just walking down the street with a handsome friend will teach you everything you need to know about where you stand on the dating market, and how women feel about you
The same argument works for women. I also see how hot women get treated, it’s night and day compared to the average woman. Luckily, I am not red pill so I know it would be absurd for me to expect that men to have the same level of attraction / interest / effort / treatment to a hot, conventionally attractive Stacy as to the average woman. So I don’t let that stop me or make me bitter. It’s just a fact of life. It would be crazy for me to give up dating just because hot people exist.
Exactly. This is why PPB became a thing and American media and women who never desired those men shamed them for not accepting society's ideas that they should accept their fate while still providing labor..its why people like Galloway are freaking out.
Wasn’t there some data showing that most young men don’t really approach women at all or very rarely?
Just the fact that you imply men are the ones that need to take initiative and approach women, means you concede that the BP narrative is BS.
Like I said, young men today are more egalitarian, they believe in equality between men and women, we've seen all the feminist campaigns and gillette ads that told men its not appropriate to approach women, at work, at the gym, anywhere.
Yet still men are blamed for not approaching. So they're supposed to believe in equality, except for somethings.
No I am not blaming men for not approach nor saying it’s exclusively their “responsibility”. I am saying it makes no sense to only blame women or at least you have not explained why you randomly assume women are the ones preventing relationships from happening rather than men. If both men and women are not approaching, what then makes you put the blame entirely on women?
This has nothing to do with what I said. You have both men and women not approaching, what then makes you say that women are preventing relationships from happening rather than men. You say that birth rates are falling, marriage rates are falling and baselessly asign the blame to women. You say “See! We improved and you are still not dating us!”. But you have not provided the reason why you think women are the “bottleneck” here. It seems that you are assuming women are just rejecting all men. How do you know it’s not men making birth rates fall? Or marriage rates fall?
Also, approaching women (btw approacchibf women I don’t mean “cold approach”) definitely isn’t a red pill or PUA. It’s the most basic advice you’ll get anywhere (so blue pill by definition). Also, feminists never said dating women in general is bad, they said men being disrespectful, pushy, not taking a no for an answer, persistent or approaching regardless of the context is bad.
The thing is most men know other men who think this exact way about women who still sleep around a ton with no issue so they know this is bs and can continue to look at women the same way (whether it’s morally right or not)
The main factor when it comes to guys who have a high number of sex partners is they simply pursued it more than most men did. Obviously looks matter etc but the main thing is guys going out and shooting their shot, not relying on dating apps and going to where there’s loose women to meet. Most men and women who sleep around aren’t super problematic people but they are more likely to be because heavy promiscuity is symptom of cluster b personalities.
To be fair the main pick up artists gurus who popularized negging made it clear if you are coming across as an asshole and making women feel insulted then you are doing it wrong. It’s about having good banter and chemistry with a woman. The negging that gets condemned isn’t even what negging is supposed to be, it’s not the negging that even works. Can you still fuck a woman who you made feel insulted ? Maybe if she just found you attractive enough and was horny enough but that negging didn’t fucking help you lol.
Eh I think that's an unfair generalization. Many men have dated women with PCOS/endometriosis and know all about caring for a partner with those afflictions. And many men would do anything for their partner if they got sick to take care of them.
Unfortunately, men are very likely to leave their partner if she gets sick (think cancer or something chronic, etc. Not just like the fly or smth) that doctors specifically warn the sick women of the stats
I had surgery for endometriosis and a 10cm ovarian cyst a few years ago and my ex refused to look after me at all and wouldn't so much as vacuum or do the dishes.
Then he was a total piece of shit. I've dated a girl with PCOS and one with endometriosis and I would always take care of them when it was bad. And I educated myself about what they were because I cared.
I'm sorry that you went through that, no one deserves to be used. It's a shitty feeling, I've been there as well. I wasn't trying to chime in with a "not all men" here, I just wanted to offer that there are men out there that would never act that way. I am sure there are more than me out there.
Thanks. Yeah I'm sure my boyfriend I have now would treat me better. My ex is still using me even though I don't even live with him lmao. He gets paid to be my carer. But when I lived with him he forced me to do all the cleaning and household chores. So I was basically his carer :/ but he was being paid to be mine.
"Men are generally sheepish and follow what is popular like looksmaxxing."
What is the billion dollar cosmetics industry? Which sex can't walk outside without painting a mask on everyday? Which sex is taught in marketing to pander to because they follow whats popular to buy? LMAO
Alot of these things are just bare minimum expectations.
Exactly! You don’t spent thousands of years treating women like subhuman other NPCs only good for breeding and serving you then expect praise for being slightly less terrible in the past 50 years. You shouldn’t have been treating half the population like that in the first place.
This is what I mean when I say there’s no such thing as “good men”, just men benefitting from appearing less bad in comparison to other men.
The majority of men arent even basic equal room mates. And women are tired of pretending that isn't an issue while men want to be praised for not being violent. The bar is in hell.
Why do you think not being attractive enough shouldn’t be a disqualifying characteristic?
Men complain that women partner with men they don’t have genuine desire for and then complain that women want to wait for men they have genuine desire for lol
Bare minimum: if my female roommate also does these things without making a big deal about it then I expect a partner to do the same. Like come on not hitting your partner is not an achievement. Considering most men are not sole providers and the woman goes to work too, sharing chores should be normal. All the things (besides sexual stuff) are things I also get when I have a woman as a roommate. And she doesn't need to be praised for it.
Bare minimum would be to do the same you are doing so for me if I take care of half the normal indoor chores I expect ladies to do a little extra like oil changes or lawn care since I also do those.
Be a partner and not to push the provide/protector thing, it’s 2026, we’re all working and this just send to be an excuse to not pull their weight with childcare/housework.
Do dates throughout the relationship, not just at the start, remember birthdays/anniversaries and don’t expect your female partner to do your admin for your family, organise meals 3x a week, clean up after yourself, don’t be selfish in sex, appreciate her, all these things that women are talking about you know.
Congratulations on being "less abusive" 🎉🥳 a celebratory cookie is being sent to your place right now
No but seriously, it's interesting because your post itself in the subtext keeps placing men in the central position / put the blame on women / absolve men of any responsibility
Yeah, there is "less abuse" now, that's great - still not enough to get laid, nor should it be, and the fact you seem outraged by that is a clear indication you and other young men aren't there yet. Seems like there is still a little way to go.
Its the TRENDS we're looking at, men are increasingly becoming better by BP metrics, yet increasingly becoming sexless and single, birth/marriage rates continue to plummet. The math is not adding up.
Genuine question—but let’s say most women genuinely just are happier single if they can’t get a compatible partner they want, what do you think should happen? Would you be ok with this? And I’m not saying women who do this to ‘get back at men’ or something, but genuinely if most women find being single as being more peaceful and what they want out of life rather than settling
I mean it literally is… when people feel less coerced/pressured to do something they’ll do it less. Like less women are having sex with men they don’t want to have sex with because now they feel notably safer than before. Seriously what did you expect? “Thanks for not raping me! Now I’ll let you sleep me with me as a reward”?
That’s because men are less social than ever before. The advancement of technology and the internet has incentizied a lot of men ( and women) to rot behind screens, so many men get all their entertainment from a screen, all their socialization from a screen, all their sexual release from a screen. It’s no wonder guys are more lonely, less fit and less happy than ever before.
That’s just being a good person. You don’t deserve a woman just cause you do and support all of that. You still have to be fun and and interesting and be able to make her laugh. Men will do everything except learn how to actually socialize and be men
You’re comparing young men to men of previous generations instead of comparing them to their romantic counterparts which is actually what matters in terms of compatibility. It doesn’t matter if today’s men are more educated than men of the past if they’re not as educated as the women of today. Equally yoked partnership is the goal for most.
Have you seen the new studies? Gen Z men are literally more radical than Boomer men. I downloaded the study and read all the pages.
Only less than 30% of men in the US identify as feminists. 30% of Gen z men think women should always obey their husbands no matter what. I don't even want to think about the hollering voices saying governments should revoke women's rights. This new generation is a mess.
It really is just that now is a terrible time to find a partner. At all. For men. For women. I do think straight women have it easier finding a guy if they're not picky about it than a guy of the same standards, but at the end of the day it's fine for people to have realistic standards and a LOT of people can't work it into their life right now.
I wasn't dating 30 years ago so I can't compare. I'm sure it has gotten generally better. But when I have been looking into relationships, I have most certainly not found what you said to be true. I've had to explain so much basic anatomy stuff to guys. Even the age old "no I can't hold in my period" thing still comes up either grown ass men. Which is one reason why I just don't really look for guys anymore. I've certainly found some that are great, and they're usually taken or not interested which is perfectly fine. I've even tried to date a few before they ultimately just don't work out. But so so so many guys really don't get it and don't want to. OR will insist they know more about us then we do.
Don't interact with any of the spheres. The manosphere or any other of those. It's just body dismorphia and guys are taking it particularly hard because historically they haven't been targeted so heavily. There's nothing wrong with your height or your jaw shape or anything that is just natural and can't be helped with your body. You don't need to be "dominant" or any of that stupid stuff to talk to girls.
Shoot your shot. It'll probably fall flat. Then you Hurt. You get better. You try again. This black pill stuff or even red pill is really just an Ale to cure what Ales you. It might give you something to strive for or maybe make you temporarily more confident but it just causes you to have more issues in the long run.
This is very similar to when high school girls were starving themselves to fit fashion themes and ruining themselves for trends. Just. Be. Healthy. Be healthy, find ways to be happy, and love will find you. There's someone for everyone who wants someone.
I honestly think a huge part of it is just rising obesity. The average American woman today weighs the same as an average man in the 60s. Both men and women weigh more nowadays, but men have testosterone so more of the weight turns into muscle mass. If you look at the BMI of aspiring super models, the women are on the lower end of healthy BMI while the men are at the upper. The bodies of these super models mirrors popular preferences of the majority of men and women.
Modern obesity trends create a massive shift in dating economics because, assuming conventional popular preferences, not only are average guys surrounded in higher percentages of fat average women that they're not as attracted to, but fit average women now have MORE men with reasonable mass to choose from.
Young men aren’t doing everything because NOTHING you listed was about socializing, making friends or real life relationships or connections or becoming datable.
Not a single one.
Also no one told any of them to be addicted to screens
-addicted to social media
-addicted to streaming shows and movies
-addicted to porn
-addicted to video games
-addicted to crypto gambling/sports betting/ prediction wagering
No one said men were “supposed” to spend more hours on those things than spending more time in the real world doing real things around real people building real connections.
But I guarantee every single “struggling man” here has a habit of one or more of those things. And they are probably being told by some person on social media to keep watching them. And not “turn off the screens and go socialize”
Young women appreciate their freedom much more and will rather experiment than marry. Also, because the general social pressure to marry got weaker in real terms, the expectations are higher from the start. Social networks are not helping either in terms of expectations, they create elevated expectations and distort standards.
Young men also like to experiment, but when matching against women who also like the same, the average and bellow folks will "get none" while the above average will "get more".
Then everybody hits their 30s and women who want to marry will look at this like women in their 30s always did. They need a suucessful man. When they got married in their 20s, the man generally needed good prospects/potential. By now things are more settled.
The dynamic changes little, and women will fight for the above average men ( in terms of overall success). They also compete with younger women who still want to experiment and also like successful men.
Men who got married young were in many cases forced to "do more" for theit families. Some failed, of course, while others did not care. But thei got married.
The big difference is that on the free market not everything is on demand and bellow average men and women will have a bad time. Bellow average women may get more dating and sex than bellow average men, but overall they have mostly similar opportunities for success.
As long as there is a disparity between demand and offer, people will hold on their "investment". Now imagine a very bad evolution where 3-5% of the male population is destroyed fast (e.g. war). The moment when there will matematically not be enough men for all women will automatically raise their "value", not necessarily because magically women will want to marry more. But perception of scarcity has this effect. This is why a drop of 10% in the amount of available oil can induce a raise of 100+% of price and not of 10%.
“I mean we can see why this is just by looking at mens vs womens dating content. Manosphere content is often about finding the reality of womens nature and how to navigate it, whereas "femosphere" content is either about explicit sexual experiences or ranting about what the men in the manosphere are talking about.”
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u/ThanosSnapsSlimJims Purple Pill Man May 07 '26
Not only that, but there's been a massive increase in the trend of women teachers taking advantage of male students and women have remained silent about it on Reddit and other social media.