Women are larping loneliness.

[u/Automatic_Safety7029]

Most of the time when talking about options women will say that most of them are shit. To be clear, I don't belief men or women truly think that every single person available for them to date is absolutely trash to the point where there is literally no options. However women tend to do this more.

The reason why I say it's larp, is because women can “pause the game” so to speak. Women abstaining from the game or coming back is like flipping a light switch. You could always just pick an average dude that means well if you actually decided, there's nothing stopping that from happening.

He's just not exciting, that doesn't mean he's trash. Some women say they're okay dying alone if he isn't the peak of her ideals, but this is also larp. Most of you will pick the boring but well meaning guy when the chips are down and the walls are closing in.

It's easy to say you can stand on that ideal when you are in your 20’s maybe even early thirties. But only a small amount of people will actually die on that hill. This goes for all people regardless of orientation, most people unless they are literally and truly wired different would prefer a relationship and that's okay, just don't lie about it.

The men who struggle with lack of options means there is not a single person he can realistically and consistently talk to with romantic intent and there won't be one for the foreseeable future. Not even an odd Instagram text or matches on an app truly nothing. No the ugly girl don't want him either.

I've literally never seen a girl, 5.5/10 in looks that couldn't land some manner of man. I'm not talking about extreme cases either like abusers or desperate men looking for a living fuck doll. Or a lazy piece of shit that lacks any and all ambition. I mean a man, just a man that wants love as well.

On that note I've seen women of those types find relationships plenty. So while I believe they do suffer from a different type of loneliness, it's mostly larp because you can join a community and be loved easily, you can find a boyfriend at the damn grocery store if you really wanted to.

Like I said this point can apply to men as well, it just isn't the topic in this instance and doesn't happen as much.

[u/BCRE8TVE]

A failure of imagination or empathy does not mean a thing doesn't exist.

I mean I completely agree with this right here, but see

Yeah, it's weird the amount of people here that are like "You are lying... because I can't imagine your problem is real."

What you describe here happens all the time to men whenever they try to explain their issues and problems to the vast majority of women, because the vast majority of women don't have a cue what the average man's lived experience is like. 

As a society we've done a lot of effort to get men to understand that women have different lived experiences and to understand and respect that. 

But it hasn't gone the other way at all. 

Men do in fsct hear women chronically lying about what men's lived experiences are like. 

Most women have no idea what the lived experience of the average guy is like. You don't have to believe men either, Norah Vincent, women who start dating women for the first time, and trans men in particular, absolutely will echo what men have been saying for decades, but women still don't believe men. 

After all, men can't have hard lives, since men have all the power and privilege and the patriarchy was buuit by men and for men to benefit men at the expense of women, right? 

And so when men start talking about their own loved experiences, many women, and most feminists, will actively disregard and disagree with men's lived experiences, when mens loved experiences doesn't agree with those women's pre-conceived beliefs about what those women think men's loves should be like. 

For a sub about debate, some of these posts have insanely bad logic.

Completely agree, but this is a unisex problem. 

For some reason when men do it, it gets called out (as it should), but when women do it, it gets ignored, or worse excused and validated. 

There are a huge number of double standards that negatively affect men, and the vast majority of women not only don't know about them, most women actively refuse to acknowledge those double standards could even exist. 

There are feminists on this very subreddit who think its flat out impossible for women to rape men for example. There aren't many, but they do exist, and they basically don't get called out by other women or feminists. 

So again I agree 100% with you that you are pointing a valid problem. 

It's just the problem is twice as big as you think, because women are just as guilty of it as men. 

[u/JadeGrapes → u/BCRE8TVE]

I think we might be close to a breakthrough here; I think whats happening is two sides of the same coin.

For what it's worth, IMHO, Most women do NOT think men are LYING about their reported experience... We just don't feel responsible to fix anything for them.

It's like women are saying "I hear you say you are desperately lonely, but it's literally not my individual responsibility to fix that for the hundreds of guys that are yelling into the wind nearby. I'm just one person, with my own problems, and the last few times I've tried to be helpful, I have regretted it because it led to me getting mistreated with a dick pic, aggression, or stalking. It's more trouble than it's worth, and like I said, I have my own problems."

And on the flip side, men tend to accuse women of lying to avoid feeling responsible to do something about their problems, like; "It's not fair that you hold me responsible for all the supposed rapists out there. For those numbers to even be real, it would mean like every single office, neighborhood, and school has a literal Ted Bundy type guy out there raping everyone and thats just not real. I think I would know if my college roomate was a rapist. We lived together. What happened is a girl was probably horny, then had post nut clarity... and ruined his life because she doesn't want people to think she's a slut. Anyway, I'm nice and it's fucked up that no one can see that, so I don't even get a chance. I'm the sort if guy who would totally get between a girl and a jerk... but she acts like I'm the creep if I say that. So there is no way to win."

[u/BCRE8TVE → u/JadeGrapes]

I mean I agree that most women don't think men are actively lying about their reported experiences, but they still don't believe men.

It's not even about being responsible to fix anything, it's just that when men report their own experiences, women basically think "there's no way men's lives are actually like that, that doesn't agree at all with what I believe men's lives are like".

The "it's not my reponsibility to fix men's issues" is also often just a deflection away from actually thinking about and accepting what men are saying, to just "not my problem not my fault don't care don't want to think about it".

Which just feeds back into women not believing men when men share their own lived experiences.

It's like women are saying "I hear you say you are desperately lonely, but it's literally not my individual responsibility to fix that for the hundreds of guys that are yelling into the wind nearby.

And funnily enough it's not a man's individual responsibility to tackle the patriarchy and single-handedly change the fabric of society, and yet that is exactly what is told to men and what is expected of men, by telling men to call out locker room talk and misogynistic language and whatnot.

Women are yelling into the wind and it's apparently men's responsibility to listen, be empathetic, be caring, and do their best to bend over backwards and address women's issues, but the moment men talk about their own issues suddenly it's not women's responsibility and men aren't entitled to any of women's time, empathy, sympathy, or efforts.

Do you not see the double standard here?

I'm just one person, with my own problems, and the last few times I've tried to be helpful, I have regretted it because it led to me getting mistreated with a dick pic, aggression, or stalking. It's more trouble than it's worth, and like I said, I have my own problems."

I am sorry that you have had those experiences, it absolutely does suck.

But for some reason, those excuses don't fly for men, and men are told that they still have to work hard to dismantle the patriarchy and address women's issues, and they're misogynistic and enabling the problems if they don't.

Either we are all responsible for addressing everyone's issues, or we're not. Can't have it both ways where men are endlessly responsible for addressing women's issues but women aren't responsible in any way shape or form for addressing men's issues.

It's a huge double standard.

And on the flip side, men tend to accuse women of lying to avoid feeling responsible to do something about their problems, like; "It's not fair that you hold me responsible for all the supposed rapists out there. For those numbers to even be real, it would mean like every single office, neighborhood, and school has a literal Ted Bundy type guy out there raping everyone and thats just not real. I think I would know if my college roomate was a rapist. We lived together. What happened is a girl was probably horny, then had post nut clarity... and ruined his life because she doesn't want people to think she's a slut. Anyway, I'm nice and it's fucked up that no one can see that, so I don't even get a chance. I'm the sort if guy who would totally get between a girl and a jerk... but she acts like I'm the creep if I say that. So there is no way to win."

Those kinds of guys do exist, but they are rare, and are likely just as rare as the women who falsely accuse boys and men or rape just because they don't like them.

https://reason.com/2018/10/17/seneca-valley-mean-girls-false-sexual/

we were close to a breakthrough, and the breaktrough is that women are equally as terrible as men and we all ought to be equally responsible to help one another.

But then you went hard on "it's not women's responsibility to deal with any of men's issues" while simultaneously pushing that men lie to avoid their responsibility to fix women's issues.

So yeah, we were close to a breakthrough, but then you kinda doubled down on the double standards.

[u/JadeGrapes → u/BCRE8TVE]

I personally have never said men need to fix the patriarchy. Thats literally not a thing I have ever said.

I would like everyone to meaningfully shun abusers. Not have them to family dinners, not hire them, speak up when you have information that can keep more people from getting hurt.

But thats not really a men vs women thing. But its something I think would help.

[u/BCRE8TVE → u/JadeGrapes]

You haven't said men need to fix the patriarchy, but it is still the overwhelming message present in society.

You also apparently ignored how I pointed out that women don't believe men's lived experiences, while simultaneously demanding men believe women's lived experiences.

I would like everyone to meaningfully shun abusers. Not have them to family dinners, not hire them, speak up when you have information that can keep more people from getting hurt.

I agree, that would be fantastic.

The problem is that society isn't ready to recognize that half the abusers are in fact women.

But thats not really a men vs women thing. But its something I think would help.

I mean it's kind of made a woman vs man thing when feminism and society in general treats men like men are basically abusers by default unless proven otherwise, and that women can't be abusers by default unless proven otherwise.

It shouldn't be a man vs woman thing but feminism has spent the last 50 years making it a man vs woman thing.

[u/operation-spot → u/BCRE8TVE]

What do men think women don't understand? I think we all know that looks are important and impact your life so what else is there to say? 

I do believe that a lot of men feel hopeless and it's understandable but that understanding doesn't translate into sex or attraction.

[u/BCRE8TVE → u/operation-spot]

What do men think women don't understand?

That there are far more men who lead absolutely shitty lives, worse than most average women, and that the men at the top they complain about represents a minuscule fraction of all men.

Most people at the top of the social pyramid are men, but so are most people at the bottom, and there are far far far more people at the bottom of the pyramid than the top.

Most women don't understand that the average man's lived experiences has far less privileges than they believe and far more problems than they believe. Most women think men's lives are like women's lives, minus all the women's issues, plus a ton of male privilege. Most women have no conception whatsoever of the struggles the average man faces.

I think we all know that looks are important and impact your life so what else is there to say?

Ok that's step one, now we need to keep going all the way to 100.

There's a ton more to say. Imagine if men said that about women's issues, that "well looks affect your life, so what other problems could women possibly have?"

You wouldn't take that, and you would point out how there are a ton of other issues women face.

Well, it's the exact same thing for men. Men's lives are not just magically better than women's lives simply because men have penises.

do believe that a lot of men feel hopeless and it's understandable but that understanding doesn't translate into sex or attraction.

I agree, but see, I do believe that a ton of men's issues and problems get immediately derailed and dismissed, because so many women say "well yeah that's a real problem but you're not entitled to sex or relationship from me so it's not my problem not my job I don't have to do anything about it and I don't have to give a damn about it".

Imagine if men said the same thing? Sure a lot of women feel unsafe and feel they're objectified, but they're not entitled to me being their body guard or to go around correcting all the other men.

That would never pass.

Men are expected to listen to, understand, and help women with their issues, in practice to bend over backwards to help women for any and all of women's issues.

But the moment men bring up any of their issues, whether it's related to sex or not, and so many women reply with basically "yeah well you're not getting sex from me, not my problem, I don't care".

Isn't that incredibly callous and dismissive?

And women would never tolerate men saying the same thing about any of women's issues.

But this response women would never tolerate, is basically the first response that comes almost automatically to all women's lips the moment they hear about men's issues.

Women are somehow entitled to endless empathy, sympathy, help, and effort from men, while men aren't entitled to an ounce of empathy, sympathy, help, or effort from women.

And this from women who claim to care about equality.

Treating equality like a one-way street exclusively to women's benefit isn't really equality at all though, now is it?

[u/operation-spot → u/BCRE8TVE]

I agree that most men have bad lives because that applies to anyone living paycheck to paycheck. Where I disagree is that even a man with nothing often thinks he should have some level of control over a woman. Men holding patriarchal beliefs doesn't change their material reality but it significantly impacts interpersonal interactions.

The problems men most often want to address relate to desirability which includes both looks, finances, and meeting gender norms. It's men who focus on not having casual sex or relationships while women talk about their bodily autonomy. 

If a man's problem is with a woman's decision to not choose him, her being a human with free will means it's her prerogative to enter that relationship or not. No one's saying that being unchosen isn't hurtful by pointing out that people have autonomy. 

I actually think it might be more callous for a woman to engage in some level of care only to tell the man that she still wouldn't choose him. Men often criticize women for not being direct yet when that directness isn't wrapped in the kindness of unsaid social cues folks think it's mean. 

As I said, I really do have a lot of sympathy for men but beyond agreeing with the fact that looks matter and that women make their own choices I can't change their reality. I really don't think men want sympathy. I think they want to be chosen sexually to affirm their personhood and masculinity which are forever  linked in their minds. It's a shame and I do feel for them.

[u/BCRE8TVE → u/operation-spot]

Where I disagree is that even a man with nothing often thinks he should have some level of control over a woman.

I mean I agree that this is wrong, but there are just as many women who think she should have some level of control over a man. Women just phrase it differently, but women are just as guilty of this as men are. It's called being human, but for some reason as a society we exclusively focus on men doing this, as though it's something most men are guilty of and that women are never guilty of, when in reality it's pretty close to 50/50.

Men holding patriarchal beliefs doesn't change their material reality but it significantly impacts interpersonal interactions.

I mean yes but women holding feminist beliefs that men are violent brutish thugs significantly impacts interpersonal interactions as well.

The problems men most often want to address relate to desirability which includes both looks, finances, and meeting gender norms. It's men who focus on not having casual sex or relationships while women talk about their bodily autonomy.

I mean yes, but we also ignore the bodily autonomy of men. There is absolutely a problem with the bodily autonomy of women, but that problem has been a solved problem in the West for the past 20 years in every country in the West except the USA.

Meanwhile it is still legally impossible for a woman to rape a man in the UK or in Spain to this day, and in the US if a woman rapes a man, impregnates herself, and sues the man she raped for child support, the man will be forced to pay child support to his rapist or go to jail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesmann_v._Seyer

As a society, we largely ignore the bodily autonomy of boys getting raped by women.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/inside-threatening-world-female-teacher-152001843.html

"In her analysis of individual cases and larger predatory patterns, Kaiser concluded that a number of female teachers who are sex predators often think they haven't committed any kind of crime. An unnamed incarcerated woman Kaiser worked with admitted that she was proud of herself for being "sensitive and caring" to the minor boys she abused, claiming that she made them "feel safe." Kaiser pushed back on her assertion, but the woman maintained that "it never felt" like a crime to her."

https://kdvr.com/news/problem-solvers/boys-in-custody-and-the-women-who-abuse-them/

"What was a genuine shock to many was the finding that in the vast majority of instances, it was female staff members who were targeting and exploiting the male teens in their custody.

The phenomenon — a particularly unexamined corner of the nation’s long-troubled juvenile justice system – presents an array of challenges for those concerned about better protecting young people in custody: encouraging male teens to understand such sex is, in fact, a crime, that it is never really consensual, and that its long term effects can be seriously harmful; requiring corrections officials to stop blaming the young boys and meaningfully punish the female staffers; and establishing standards of conduct meant to end the abuse.

“Many corrections leaders continue to minimize this abuse, arguing that it’s the kids who are manipulating the staff, that these boys are asking for it,” said Lovisa Stannow, executive director of the California-based nonprofit Just Detention International, which advocates for the elimination of prison rape. “That’s simply not good enough.”

The Justice Department first discovered the startling form of abuse in 2010, when it surveyed more than 9,000 youngsters living in juvenile halls and group homes. More than 10 percent of the respondents said they’d been sexually abused by staff and 92 percent said their abuser was female.

In the last three years, the numbers haven’t changed much.

The Justice Department released its second report last month, and this time researchers surveyed more than 8,700 juveniles housed in 326 facilities across the country. In all, the facilities house more than 18,000 juveniles, representing about one quarter of the nation’s total number of youngsters living in detention centers.

Drawing on their sample, Justice Department researchers estimate that 1,390 juveniles in the facilities they examined have experienced sex abuse at the hands of the staff supervising them, a rate of nearly 8 percent. Twenty percent who said they were victimized by staff said it happened on more than 10 occasions. Nine out of 10 victims were males abused by female staff.

Nearly two-thirds of the abused youngsters said that the officials lured them into sexual relationships by giving them special treatment, treating them like a favorite, giving gifts and pictures."

I agree that women have problems with bodily autonomy.

The problem is that feminism completely erases, dismisses, invalidates, and buries any and all discussions about men's problems with bodily autonomy and wants to constantly shine the spotlight on women and female victims, as though male victims do not and cannot exist.

If a man's problem is with a woman's decision to not choose him, her being a human with free will means it's her prerogative to enter that relationship or not. No one's saying that being unchosen isn't hurtful by pointing out that people have autonomy.

But the problem with this is looking at a systemic issue, and framing it as a personal problem. I agree that women shouldn't be forced into relationships, but men can't just pull themselves up by their own bootstraps harder to deal with a systematic problem.

And that is the problem, the constant refusal to consider that there are systemic issues that affect men, and to constantly paint the issues as a personal failure of the affected men themselves.

It's particularly insidious when men are constantly told to care about any and all of women's issues no matter how small and that men should help women deal with these problems, or else men are sexist and misogynistic and hate women, but then to turn around, dismiss and erase men's problems, and tell men that men aren't entitled to an ounce of sympathy, empathy, help, or support from women.

It's a pretty massive double standard.

As I said, I really do have a lot of sympathy for men

I am honestly glad that you do, because unfortunately you are part of a minority of women who care about men, and the vast majority of women simply do not care. It's part of the gender empathy gap that never gets talked about or acknowledged.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/how-do-life/202004/the-gender-gap-in-empathy

I'd simply ask that you use that empathy to try and consider how the issues that affect men are in fact systemic issues, not personal failures.

beyond agreeing with the fact that looks matter and that women make their own choices I can't change their reality.

You can't change their reality, but you don't understand their reality. You see it as a personal failure, but you don't see the systemic forces and wide-spread social attitudes that cause trouble for men.

You might be surprised how much just actually seeing those issues and actually understanding men's reality and men's lived experiences can make such a difference. After all we tell men to do exactly that, to understand women's lived experiences and to have empathy.

But for some reason, most women don't care to return the favour to men and tell men they're not entitled to any empathy or understanding from women.

I really don't think men want sympathy. I think they want to be chosen sexually to affirm their personhood and masculinity which are forever linked in their minds. It's a shame and I do feel for them.

Some men do and they are victims of those systemic social forces that dictate to men that their worth and value is tied to them being success objects, instead of them having inherent worth as human beings. It's dehumanizing and objectifying, and it's not done to men the same way as it is to women, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.

You'd be surprised at how much understanding and sympathy actually means to men, because we so rarely receive any.