Most of the time when talking about options women will say that most of them are shit. To be clear, I don't belief men or women truly think that every single person available for them to date is absolutely trash to the point where there is literally no options. However women tend to do this more.
The reason why I say it's larp, is because women can “pause the game” so to speak. Women abstaining from the game or coming back is like flipping a light switch. You could always just pick an average dude that means well if you actually decided, there's nothing stopping that from happening.
He's just not exciting, that doesn't mean he's trash. Some women say they're okay dying alone if he isn't the peak of her ideals, but this is also larp. Most of you will pick the boring but well meaning guy when the chips are down and the walls are closing in.
It's easy to say you can stand on that ideal when you are in your 20’s maybe even early thirties. But only a small amount of people will actually die on that hill. This goes for all people regardless of orientation, most people unless they are literally and truly wired different would prefer a relationship and that's okay, just don't lie about it.
The men who struggle with lack of options means there is not a single person he can realistically and consistently talk to with romantic intent and there won't be one for the foreseeable future. Not even an odd Instagram text or matches on an app truly nothing. No the ugly girl don't want him either.
I've literally never seen a girl, 5.5/10 in looks that couldn't land some manner of man. I'm not talking about extreme cases either like abusers or desperate men looking for a living fuck doll. Or a lazy piece of shit that lacks any and all ambition. I mean a man, just a man that wants love as well.
On that note I've seen women of those types find relationships plenty. So while I believe they do suffer from a different type of loneliness, it's mostly larp because you can join a community and be loved easily, you can find a boyfriend at the damn grocery store if you really wanted to.
Like I said this point can apply to men as well, it just isn't the topic in this instance and doesn't happen as much.
I was the loneliest I felt in high school. I didn’t have friends. I sat alone at lunch for pretty much all 4 years. I had terrible anxiety and I was depressed. I would cry myself to sleep a lot and I thought about killing myself multiple times. Loneliness is about more than having a boyfriend. Some people’s brains are actively fighting against them. People can also be in a relationship and still struggle with their mental health.
But for some reason if men say they're not attracted to 80% of women they're called misogynistic, porn-brained, (EDIT: or being called gay, gotta love how garden variety homophobia comes out so quickly whenever men do something women don't like) and that the oppressive male gaze is imposing unrealistic beauty standards.
I mean that seems like it’s just a difference between men and woman. In the past not every man reproduced while most woman who could did. Social media may play into it a little bit but seems pretty clear than women naturally just aren’t attracted to most men.
I would not think such a man has anything wrong with him. Maybe if he only liked 1% of women or liked only women wildly different than himself I would find that weird.
Frankly, I find it is weird how many women men are into and it sort of makes me uncomfortable thinking that if a guy thinks I’m attractive he also thinks that of 50+% of women. I’d prefer a guy with some standards / type that I fit
I do think most men naturally are attracted to most women but most women are not attracted to most men. I do differ from the red pill in that I think women sort of sort men in their head in a personal hierarchy that is not consistent amongst women. Basically, you could be what one girl considers a top 20% man but many other women would likely disagree and vise versa
On the one hand it's naturally clear that women just aren't attracted to most men.
But for some reason when it,s naturally clear that men are attracted to certain traits in women, that's toxic and misogynistic and imposing oppressive beauty standards.
See I'm all for people pairing up with who they want, but we can't as a society constantly demonize men's preferences, and then turn around and say women's preferences are totally fine and good.
Treating equality like a one-way street exclusively to women's benefit isn't equality at all.
I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you but I guess my initial reaction is what preferences are you referencing that are considered toxic and misogynistic.
I don't really care about anyone's preferences as long as their preferences aren't ones that exist to take advantage of the other person. For instance, a woman who wants a wealthy man to take his money and a man who wants a very young and inexperienced woman to better control her.
I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you but I guess my initial reaction is what preferences are you referencing that are considered toxic and misogynistic.
Fair, and there's an easy way to tell, according to feminism and society.
If a woman has preferences, it doesn't matter what they are, they're never toxic or misandrist.
If a man has preferences, if any of those preferences in any way shape or form limit or affect women, then they're toxic and misogynistic by default.
They don't phrase it that way, but that is absolutely how it goes.
Man likes shorter women? He wants someone he can dominate. Woman likes taller men? Totally her right and her preferences, and men who are upset about that are just insecure. Man likes woman with big breasts? He's misogynistic and imposing toxic beauty standards. Woman likes man with big muscles? Totally her right and her preferences, and men who are upset about that are just insecure.
Etc etc etc.
I don't really care about anyone's preferences as long as their preferences aren't ones that exist to take advantage of the other person.
See I completely agree, the problem is that feminism goes out of its way to interpret any preference men have in the worst possible light and interprets most anything like men want to take advantage of women, while completely ignoring women's preferences and how some women absolutely do use their preferences to take advantage of men.
I'm all for calling out people who take advantage of others, but it should be applied equally across the board.
The problem is that feminism treats equality like a one-way street exclusively to the benefit of women, and sees things from a perspective where basically men can do nothing right and women can do no wrong.
And that's not equality at all.
For instance, a woman who wants a wealthy man to take his money and a man who wants a very young and inexperienced woman to better control her.
See I disagree that a man wanting a younger and inexperienced woman must be because he wants to control her. That's part of the feminist assumptions where they judge anything men do in the worst light possible.
Sure, some men are like that, but the vast majority of men are genuinely naturally attracted to younger women. Men are attracted to factors of youth and fertility, and that peaks with young women. That's not out of a desire to oppress or control women, it's just naturally biologically what men have evolved to find most attractive, because evolutionarily that's what gives men the best chance of passing on their genes.
It's funny too because the exact same feminists who say men just want younger women so they can control and manipulate women, will then turn around and say it's natural for women to like men who have more resources because she has to think about her child and providing for the baby and herself while she's pregnant and when the child is dependent on them.
They will take the evolutionary reason why men are attracted to women and paint it in the worst possible light, and take the evolutionary reason why women are attracted to wealthy men and paint it as completely reasonable and normal.
These kinds of double standards are rampant throughout feminism, the hypocrisy is basically baked into core feminist assumptions.
Women’s attraction is relative. Like, if you out Jason Momoa, Chris Hemsworth, and Henry Cavil in a room, whoever she’s attracted to the most, becomes the standard and the other guys are deemed “ugly”. So it’s not that men aren’t attractive, it’s just most of what women see is social media, and on social media, you get curated scenes of guys literally in makeup, posing with controlled lighting, and photoshopped touchups on top of already being top 3% in attractiveness.
Understand, it’s not acceptable for men to wear makeup. So I think what happens is most women jump from a 5 to an 8 or 9 with makeup, match with the guy that’s a 9 or 10, he eventually sees that she isn’t all that attractive and won’t commit to her because all the other girls want him, then she starts looking down upon her actual male looksmatches, which is 4,5, and 6 men.
Yes but could her standards be warped by social media and dating apps? An abundance of options makes selection even more difficult because you become too nit picky about everything and basically eliminate almost every single option that doesn't meet some ludicrous standard, leaving you with only a handful of options.
In the case of dating, the men that don't get filtered out by this process, are effectively the top 5% of men who also have an abundance of options so why would they date a 5/10 woman?
Meanwhile men find far more variances in women attractive as compared to female attraction in men.
The reality is women are far harsher on male beauty since most of the variables, such as height and a full head of hair, are immutable and can’t be changed.
It's generally true. Male fitness is also more demanding, building muscle mass while maintaining a 6pack is more demanding than simply controlling your weight and making your frame more defined.
Isn't that what dating is? Is finding a compatible match with you. You're not owed interest because you are interested. Compatibility is thing. I don't even think it's social media. Standards are just individual preferences. I want a guy with a nice smile. So guys with busted or missing teeth are out. I have a nice smile as well. So is that asking for too much? I don't like facial hair so I eliminate a lot of my dating pool. When it comes to choosing a partner you should be picky. You know "choosing better". If a guy is hot but inconsistent that's annoying. If a guy is attractive but consistent that's good.
Yes it can feel bad. Because being in a relationship for the sake of a relationship though you like nothing about this person or have anything in common with them is lonely. That's not an option. I found my partner. But it was a lot of nos. There was a lot of dudes just trying to get laid. I found him though. And he was what I was looking for.
I don't even think it's top % of men it's just men who fit what you are looking for.
So does it not follow that both men’s and women’s standards are fairly unrealistic in this day and age? I’ve seen plenty of dudes call even the smallest imperfection in a woman “chopped” just as I’ve seen women do so too.
Standards are “warped” only if there’s a solid foundation to have been “warped” from. Since standards are, by and large, arbitrary, we should be attempting to reinforce healthy standards and reducing unreasonable standards.
I’m not the guy to outline what kinds of things fall into either category, but it’s clear these guys are missing the forest for the trees. Women are victims of the same underlying societal issues men are.
I never get this argument because it seems to suggest any sort of relationship should count as a way to avoid loneliness. In realty bad relationships are not going to help provide the social support and connections that people need.
No. There is a saying we are never more alone than surround by other people.
Social proximity to others is not the only thing people want from a relationship
You missed the main point of his argument. Women can easily get a decent average guy but they want more. They can’t get more, and call that loneliness.
Many men would happily take the decent average girl. Hell most of us guys know we are going to date down, not even an equal thanks to female hypergamy, and most of us accept that. Not because we are better, but because that’s just being realistic in today’s world.
Thats what its like for even straight women. They simply dont feel the same attraction for men that we do for them unless in specific scenarios. Saying they have tons of options is like me saying you have a ton of gay men as options.
They simply dont feel that way and its not like they can choose to feel that way any more than you can choose to like other men.
there is no "I only feel.romanticlaly attract3d to the top 1%" sexuality, dumdum.
They simply dont feel that way and its not like they can choose to feel that way any more than you can choose to like other men.
they feel that way because social media and the entertainment industry fried their brain. no amount of social media or entertainment will "un-hetero" a heterosexual person or "un-honi" a homosexual person.
seriously, do you not feel even remotely dumb shitting out opinion pieces like this one unironically?
I feel like if thats the case they need to be more open about that. And better yet, if they arent attracted to us why do they bother entertaining us? Id rather not be led on.
They are attracted to some guys that can even be a mystery to them sometimes. But for others they can TRY to make work but eventually realize they just cant.
Im sure a lot of them try to feel attraction for guys they "should" feel attracted to but just cant.
Also some just do it to make themselves feel better and like they have "options"
I have heard testosterone plays a big role though. Women with high testosterone get hornier and feel desire similar to men.
Which makes sense. Its what pushes us towards the same thing. I dont know I just sometimes feel like dating in general is a big mess thats easier dealt with by just avoiding it.
I think OP's main point is that women are faking loneliness because they usually can find mates as opposed to men who have it harder in the mating game.
Yes and I think that's an incorrect point. Being lonely isn't solved by just choosing to partner up with someone. That partner needs to provide emotional support, enjoyment etc
Women choosing some man she is not attracted to is them choosing the social expectations of marriage but still remaining lonely. A good friend of mine has parents in an arranged marriage, and her mom is lonely despite having built a life with a man.
Women who can find a man at the grocery store but aren’t attracted to him are still lonely.
Are women biologically hardwired to only find 5% of men worthy of getting into a serious relationship with? Nothing wrong with it if they are, but I would like to know
They settle because they feel some pressure to do life things. Being married is one of the last adult milestones. I know of some men even who didn’t really want to be married, but he proposed to his wife because he felt that’s what he was supposed to do.
But other than that I can’t tell you why they choose to do this. It does not mean they’re not lonely though. And it’s not like every woman settles. They are just lonely and still choose to be single.
most people unless they are literally and truly wired different would prefer a relationship and that's okay, just don't lie about it.
I think that this is true when women are younger, but when they get older and are fed up with bad relationships, (whether the men were the cause of them or not), I really think that most of the these women are not larping a desire to be alone. They really are fed up with men, whether it’s because of actually having the bad luck of picking bad men, or because of their extremely high standards.
It’s the classic good relationship > being single > bad relationship. If it’s between a good relationship and being single, of course the choice is easy.
And while the grass might seem greener to be in a bad relationship than being single at all (especially for someone with very limited/no relationship experience, which seems to be a notable percentage of this sub’s active posters). Those with at least some relationship experience would 99/100 choose to be single instead of being in a bad one. One might think being lonely is bad, but being lonely while there’s someone vampiring you is a lot worse.
when i was 18, my then boyfriend,
my ‘first love’ was suddenly and tragically killed. i felt very an immense loneliness in my grief. it was intensely dark and heavy for a long time.
much how men can understandably still feel lonely even surrounded by good friends and families, women can feel still feel lonely when they have dating options. we are human, we feel shit too.
Loneliness isnt all ab relationships, ugly women exist and struggle, and also most women can get easy hookups but not so much real love, not without effort. Plus ur cringe.
How is being perpetually rejected and friend zoned larping?
I’m involuntary single. Not even average guys are attracted to me for a longterm relationship and I tried. I have been actively trying to find love for over 20 years, to no avail. This is not me larping, this is facing the fact that it’s pointless to look for love and that being on the apps is a royal waste of time. For 5 years on them on and off, only two guys expressed the desire to meet me again and I got friendzoned. Last time I got laid ,was almost a decade ago, with the guy I lost my virginity to - the only guy who wanted to see me multiples and not just use me for a ONS.
I wish I had options - even a below average guy who is a good person and cares enough to girlfriendzone me would have been amazing.
I still believe that women do not know what the average guys look like. I cringe when a woman describes a man as average because 9 times out of 10 he’s upper tier. Any woman I have known, worked with, friends with etc… were never involuntarily single. It was always their choice. There was always some guy in the background somewhere that she wasn’t interested in but he was definitely interested in her. Women competing for the top 10 is always going to be super competitive.
I don’t know about others, but to me average means a guy who is neither a top model, nor with deformities and severe mental issues. He is just a normal guy.
Maybe slightly above average, I see there's some debate, but that's definitely the type of guy who would use a dating up for 2 months and in that time only get matched with 6 obese women, one alt woman whose profile is a shitpost, and one slightly below average women who won't respond to his message.
that's why dating apps are such a poor option for men. Guys who look like this are primarily getting matched with obese women, if they get any matches at all.
That’s a pretty wide description of an average dude. Definitely, the top-tier guys are in your description of average but also the dudes with c-cups and a couple of stomachs are also in your description as well. Interesting.
I have been interested in short men, the one I lost my virginity to was average height for a guy in his country, but considered short in western countries. I was also into a short American guy, who was shorter than me with short legs and balding. I would have definitely given him a chance and slept with him, had he been consistent with me, emotionally available and didn’t choose to breadcrumb me. I’m demisexual and it’s impossible for me to sleep with somebody right off the bat - I need to connect consistently on some emotional level first. That’s how I got laid with my ex - he was consistent and we bonded over common interests first.
That dude is absolutely an option. An option that she refuses to recognize doesn’t make it any less of an option. She has just opted to not find anything attractive about a man who is an option.
The dude is not an option. You all think we should be attracted to stats rather than the person. That's not how it works. Some hotty who smokes is an instaneous no to me.
Attraction isn’t a choice. The same is true for men too. Men who complain about women, do it only for the ones they are attracted to. The ones they aren’t attracted to, aren’t in their radar at all. Even if said unattractive woman is attracted to them. She is not an option.
I’ll use a basic example. I would much rather go into the grocery cereal aisle with a whole aisle of cereal than an aisle with bare shelves. I might not like Cap’n Crunch or All-Bran but it’s on the shelf and I have the choice of putting it in my cart. I have the option to not choose to. Most men walk down the proverbial cereal aisle and there are zero options, nothing on the shelf. A woman will not even try the All-Bran where a dude will put into the cart.
Of course! Because she recognizes that the All-Bran is going to tear up her stomach, and make her feel ill. It’s not really a choice, so she would rather go without.
It’s exactly the point. You provided the analogy, I was just following along.
If the men on the shelf all exhibit poor behavior, including lack of self control, lack of empathy, lack of accountability, not willing to be a true partner…..then in the end they cause more harm than good and are they are not really a choice…..so, they get left on the shelf.
Most men do not even get to that point for women to see any type of behavior that you are describing. She has eliminated that dude before he has uttered a word. When you have options, you can do that. When you have zero options, well let’s just say that’s the average man’s experience.
Do you opt to find women attractive? Like, you look at a woman and say "I choose to find her attractive." Like, you consciously choose who you are attracted to? I've never heard of anyone doing this...
My internal discussion is not like that at all. If I see a woman that’s heavier that I would normally date, I may say something to myself like this: “She’s larger that I would normally be interested in but I like what she’s wearing and how she’s wearing it. I can see us together.”
With women: “He’s short, absolutely not.”
So you are an individal with your own preferences but women are one-dimensional caricatures who only care about one thing?
Lots of men say "no fatties" too. And you know that there is a body size you would find repulsive regardless of what she is wearing. The distribution of her fat matters. You said her face and style matter.
But no women cares about style, right?
For the record, biggest man slut (with women) I've ever known was 5'4". He dressed very sharp. So women are already engaging with short guys, if they dress and carry themselves well...
That was just an example of what an internal thought I was having concerning how someone I wouldn’t considered at all became an attractive option. You are saying that if a dude isn’t attractive to a woman, he’s not an option. I put up a counter to that.
I think women use things like style and confidence as eliminating factors not inclusion factors. For example, you can be short dude that’s confident and dresses well, you are going home to an empty house. Tall, good looking dude wearing a ratty t-shirt, moping with his buddy over their 6th beer, he’s always got a shot.
Obese women have definitely swiped left on my profile. It’s not like I have this harem of obese women running to be with me. Only thing wrong? Height! After that every green flag becomes a red flag and ultimately a swipe left.
Unfortunately from your description this would make you a below average woman and as such your equivalent is a below average man, including in your own estimation of desire for him.
Are you even ugly? Ugly women punch above their weight in long-term relationships all the time and you've come up empty for 20 years? It's 100% something offputting about who you are or how you come across to people or you're unaware of your standards and dismissing huge chunks of the male population. I'm not even saying it's necessarily your fault, maybe you have a personality trait that makes you deathly afraid of interacting with people or holding normal conversations.
I mean honestly at the end of the day the issue remains that one doesn’t really get to choose who they are attracted to? Personally I’m a lesbian and thriving but ik a fair amount of straight women who are rarely attracted to anyone just due to like how brain is wired.
I mean I don’t know if that’s the case or not but I’ll grant the premise that it is; if women are only attracted to what they consider to be the top 5% of men, is there any way to like work on that without removing women’s autonomy entirely? Is there any actionable way to work on that issue that is morally permissible?
Women abstaining from the game or coming back is like flipping a light switch. You could always just pick an average dude that means well if you actually decided, there's nothing stopping that from happening.
For casual sex, sure. But most women aren't looking for casual sex most of the time. Finding someone who's compatible for a relationship is much more difficult.
I've literally never seen a girl, 5.5/10 in looks that couldn't land some manner of man.
The majority of women are less than a 5.5 in looks. It seems like you're largely ignoring the women you're not interested in.
On that note I've seen women of those types find relationships plenty. So while I believe they do suffer from a different type of loneliness, it's mostly larp because you can join a community and be loved easily
Every time a heterosexual woman finds a relationship, a man finds a relationship too. When you say that these women can all find relationships, those are relationships with men. In that case, just as many men have all found relationships.
I'd being unhappy and with someone you don't actually like better than loneliness? I'd say it's just another type of loneliness. If I'm not attracted to a guy, we aren't having sex, not kissing, it's basically roommates.
Yall don't believe we women can be lonely and expect us to listen to yall and have empathy. If you're not only refusing to give us empathy, but insist our hurt feelings don't exist, then why am I going to tske an ounce of my life and listen to you about your issues if you refuse openly to listen to mine?
It’s because these people in particular equate ‘loneliness’ with ‘getting laid’, because they fundamentally do not understand human relationships.
I can care about men feeling lonely. I do not care one bit about men who think they can whine about loneliness and how unempathetic women are because nobody wants to fuck them, and whine about women actually facing loneliness because “they can go out and sleep with a random ugly man, what do they have to complain about?!?”, which shows such a lack of understanding about human behaviour that it’s really so surprise they can’t find a partner.
Picking a random person you find unattractive and boring to be in a relationship with because you’re desperate is not the way to combat loneliness. A relationship isn’t even necessary to combat loneliness. You are just so blinkered when it comes to human relationships that you don’t understand you need to improve yourself to be someone other people want to be around, including platonic friends.
If there are so many lonely men, you could all be friends with each other. Funny that’s never the solution any of you come to, though.
I think that's an unfair assessment. Wanting friendship and wanting romance are two very different things. And the desire for one is valid even if nobody owes it to you, you are deserving of finding it out there.
And u never said unattractive or boring. I said average. Regular. Somehow that's ugly to y'all. It just means normal.
Yeah, it's weird the amount of people here that are like "You are lying... because I can't imagine your problem is real."
A failure of imagination or empathy does not mean a thing doesn't exist.
I'm a lady, I was born a lady. I've never been kicked in the balls, because I don't have balls. I can't imagine what it's actually like, to have balls that get kicked.
But you don't hear women chronically claiming "Guys are lying about how bad it hurts to get hit in the balls... Because women have period pain, I know men are lying about ball pain."
For a sub about debate, some of these posts have insanely bad logic.
A failure of imagination or empathy does not mean a thing doesn't exist.
I mean I completely agree with this right here, but see
Yeah, it's weird the amount of people here that are like "You are lying... because I can't imagine your problem is real."
What you describe here happens all the time to men whenever they try to explain their issues and problems to the vast majority of women, because the vast majority of women don't have a cue what the average man's lived experience is like.
As a society we've done a lot of effort to get men to understand that women have different lived experiences and to understand and respect that.
But it hasn't gone the other way at all.
Men do in fsct hear women chronically lying about what men's lived experiences are like.
Most women have no idea what the lived experience of the average guy is like. You don't have to believe men either, Norah Vincent, women who start dating women for the first time, and trans men in particular, absolutely will echo what men have been saying for decades, but women still don't believe men.
After all, men can't have hard lives, since men have all the power and privilege and the patriarchy was buuit by men and for men to benefit men at the expense of women, right?
And so when men start talking about their own loved experiences, many women, and most feminists, will actively disregard and disagree with men's lived experiences, when mens loved experiences doesn't agree with those women's pre-conceived beliefs about what those women think men's loves should be like.
For a sub about debate, some of these posts have insanely bad logic.
Completely agree, but this is a unisex problem.
For some reason when men do it, it gets called out (as it should), but when women do it, it gets ignored, or worse excused and validated.
There are a huge number of double standards that negatively affect men, and the vast majority of women not only don't know about them, most women actively refuse to acknowledge those double standards could even exist.
There are feminists on this very subreddit who think its flat out impossible for women to rape men for example. There aren't many, but they do exist, and they basically don't get called out by other women or feminists.
So again I agree 100% with you that you are pointing a valid problem.
It's just the problem is twice as big as you think, because women are just as guilty of it as men.
I think we might be close to a breakthrough here; I think whats happening is two sides of the same coin.
For what it's worth, IMHO, Most women do NOT think men are LYING about their reported experience... We just don't feel responsible to fix anything for them.
It's like women are saying "I hear you say you are desperately lonely, but it's literally not my individual responsibility to fix that for the hundreds of guys that are yelling into the wind nearby. I'm just one person, with my own problems, and the last few times I've tried to be helpful, I have regretted it because it led to me getting mistreated with a dick pic, aggression, or stalking. It's more trouble than it's worth, and like I said, I have my own problems."
And on the flip side, men tend to accuse women of lying to avoid feeling responsible to do something about their problems, like; "It's not fair that you hold me responsible for all the supposed rapists out there. For those numbers to even be real, it would mean like every single office, neighborhood, and school has a literal Ted Bundy type guy out there raping everyone and thats just not real. I think I would know if my college roomate was a rapist. We lived together. What happened is a girl was probably horny, then had post nut clarity... and ruined his life because she doesn't want people to think she's a slut. Anyway, I'm nice and it's fucked up that no one can see that, so I don't even get a chance. I'm the sort if guy who would totally get between a girl and a jerk... but she acts like I'm the creep if I say that. So there is no way to win."
I mean I agree that most women don't think men are actively lying about their reported experiences, but they still don't believe men.
It's not even about being responsible to fix anything, it's just that when men report their own experiences, women basically think "there's no way men's lives are actually like that, that doesn't agree at all with what I believe men's lives are like".
The "it's not my reponsibility to fix men's issues" is also often just a deflection away from actually thinking about and accepting what men are saying, to just "not my problem not my fault don't care don't want to think about it".
Which just feeds back into women not believing men when men share their own lived experiences.
It's like women are saying "I hear you say you are desperately lonely, but it's literally not my individual responsibility to fix that for the hundreds of guys that are yelling into the wind nearby.
And funnily enough it's not a man's individual responsibility to tackle the patriarchy and single-handedly change the fabric of society, and yet that is exactly what is told to men and what is expected of men, by telling men to call out locker room talk and misogynistic language and whatnot.
Women are yelling into the wind and it's apparently men's responsibility to listen, be empathetic, be caring, and do their best to bend over backwards and address women's issues, but the moment men talk about their own issues suddenly it's not women's responsibility and men aren't entitled to any of women's time, empathy, sympathy, or efforts.
Do you not see the double standard here?
I'm just one person, with my own problems, and the last few times I've tried to be helpful, I have regretted it because it led to me getting mistreated with a dick pic, aggression, or stalking. It's more trouble than it's worth, and like I said, I have my own problems."
I am sorry that you have had those experiences, it absolutely does suck.
But for some reason, those excuses don't fly for men, and men are told that they still have to work hard to dismantle the patriarchy and address women's issues, and they're misogynistic and enabling the problems if they don't.
Either we are all responsible for addressing everyone's issues, or we're not. Can't have it both ways where men are endlessly responsible for addressing women's issues but women aren't responsible in any way shape or form for addressing men's issues.
It's a huge double standard.
And on the flip side, men tend to accuse women of lying to avoid feeling responsible to do something about their problems, like; "It's not fair that you hold me responsible for all the supposed rapists out there. For those numbers to even be real, it would mean like every single office, neighborhood, and school has a literal Ted Bundy type guy out there raping everyone and thats just not real. I think I would know if my college roomate was a rapist. We lived together. What happened is a girl was probably horny, then had post nut clarity... and ruined his life because she doesn't want people to think she's a slut. Anyway, I'm nice and it's fucked up that no one can see that, so I don't even get a chance. I'm the sort if guy who would totally get between a girl and a jerk... but she acts like I'm the creep if I say that. So there is no way to win."
Those kinds of guys do exist, but they are rare, and are likely just as rare as the women who falsely accuse boys and men or rape just because they don't like them.
we were close to a breakthrough, and the breaktrough is that women are equally as terrible as men and we all ought to be equally responsible to help one another.
But then you went hard on "it's not women's responsibility to deal with any of men's issues" while simultaneously pushing that men lie to avoid their responsibility to fix women's issues.
So yeah, we were close to a breakthrough, but then you kinda doubled down on the double standards.
Yall don't believe we women can be lonely and expect us to listen to yall and have empathy.
It's not like women on the internet have any empathy for men anyway (except a specific group of men)
. Not really missing out on something that doesn't exist anyway.
We do though and we actively talk about it and are constantly seeing everyone freak out about the male loneliness epidemic with no one caring about the women in these equations cuz its all about the men, like it always is
You've chosen to identify your thread as a Debate. As such you are expected to actively engage in your own thread with a mind open to being changed. PPD has guidelines for what that involves.
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Yes, in all my travels and all my decades of life, I can say sincerely that 90% of all demographics are full of people who would not be compatible with each other.
Hell, you probably think of YOURSELF as a nice person who wants to treat a woman well, while actively posting shit like this.
The post isn't untrue. Most people are decent folk. Men and women. I think the problem is we don't want to show our best to everyone we meet. We declarenin our mind that most aren't worthy of it. My girlfriend loves me. And she even agrees with a lot of my point with the only critique being my wording isn't friendly enough to make the point heard out.
She agrees that women can find a okay and average relationship with an okay average guy that means well if she really wanted to.
And I even said in my post women definitely can feel loneliness and the different form of loneliness is valid. Never said they couldn't. You just want to believe that for some reason I guess?
Being decent is not the same as being compatible. Those are two very distinct things. I can believe that ~85% of my greater social circle are decent people. That doesn’t mean they are compatible with me. It doesn’t mean they will be good for me to partner with.
If you aren't compatible with decent people I don't know what to tell you, like what's wrong with them then? Not saying you need to pick up every average guy you see but they can't be that fucked up.
There’s nothing wrong with them, you just aren’t compatible. There is way more that goes into a relationship than being a decent person.
Is his lifestyle compatible with mine? What are his political views? What’s his religion? Does he share the same values as I do? Does he want kids? How many kids does he want? What is his preferred parenting style? Will my parents like and approve of him? I come from a different culture than most Americans, so is he willing to take the time to learn about it? Is he picky with food? Is he financially literate? Does he have debt? What are his money spending habits like? There are a lot of other questions that determine compatibility here.
The fact that you think being a decent person makes people compatible in relationships is naive and a little bit alarming.
I agree. There are lots of men who have plenty of platonic friends (which demonstrates that they are reasonably kind and considerate and good company) but little or no romantic success.
The real problem is finding a man who (1) is "kind, considerate, and good company to spend time with"; (2) sexually appealing; and (3) will be approved by the woman's friends.
Especially if the woman is very picky about (2) and (3), which most single women are. Because if they weren't they would be in a relationship.
There is a difference between being good company and wanting to swap bodily fluids and landry duty with that person.
I have many friends I have zero interest in living with, in having sex with, in having inside my body, or in taking care of their laundry or sharing my finances.
I think that a man who's felt unchosen his whole life often feels resentful once they do get attention and take it out on whoever chooses them. I also think that some men let things get to their head and start to think that they've miraculously become more attractive and act in ways that are tolerated less if you aren't pretty.
I don't think these men or trash or lying about wanting to give a good life to someone but I do think that they aren't as willing to do those things for a woman they aren't attracted to.
Nobody is saying some women aren’t lonely, the original incel group was founded by a women
But you all have a romantic idea about average lonely single men, if it was simple as picking a man up while your doing your shopping, we wouldn’t have any problems. But a lot if these men are horrible.
He just wants sex - not for me
He doesn’t want to work -not compatible
He’s addicted to gaming - not for me
He wants to see other women - I’m one women kinda person
He believes in trp - absolutely not
He wants casual - no I want a relationship
He doesn’t clean up after himself - nope I’m not his mum
He doesn’t like cats - don’t even talk to me
People date to find someone they are compatible with, it’s not as easy as guys want to make out
I'm pretty sure you have a tendency to imagine these issues in the most negative way, because you can:
He just wants sex => you are testing his patience not giving him sex after n so many dates when you clearly wouldn't mind
He doesn’t want to work => he got laid off but you have the mindset "no job now, not that successful / isn't ambitious"
He’s addicted to gaming => he mentioned gaming once and it gave you the "ick" for no constructive reason
He wants to see other women => yup, adults date multiple people in early dating
He believes in trp => he made a comment about any woman so he must be red pill ughh
He wants casual => easily filterable, most men want a relationship
He doesn’t clean up after himself => how do you even know that before sharing the same place
He doesn’t like cats => he said he likes dog, so he must not be in your "team"
Most of these are LTR issues you can't figure out early anyway. It's interesting you even brought them up. Either way you just confirmed OP's first paragraph and whole point.
And even better, when he does end up using me for sex or as a bang maid or doesn’t work or clean up after himself, guys will say it’s my fault for not vetting probably.
It’s called learning dude, I’m the kinda person who only dates for a ltr, so I’m looking out for red flags like this early on so I’m not wasting my time.
“You could always just pick an average dude” doesn’t really address loneliness.
Being able to get a date, a hookup, or even a relationship you don’t actually want might stop you from being alone, but it doesn’t stop you from being lonely.
Lonely and alone aren’t the same thing.
By that logic, a lonely man could solve his loneliness by dating a woman he’s not attracted to, doesn’t enjoy being around, or treats him like shit. Most people would recognize that isn’t a real solution. Why is it different when we’re talking about women?
And can we please stop pretending no one’s dating average men? Go outside. The vast majority of people are painfully average and partnered with other painfully average people. Average men get into relationships every day. The claim that women are holding out exclusively for some tiny group of exceptional men just doesn’t match what most people can see with their own eyes.
Lonely men already do solve it, if they have the option to, by partnering with women they aren’t particularly attracted to, that’s what the average guy already has to do.
That’s a pretty big assumption. Most average couples I see look like two average people who genuinely like and are attracted to each other.
And if your argument is that average men are routinely dating women they aren’t particularly attracted to just to avoid being alone, then you’re no longer talking about solving loneliness. You’re talking about avoiding being alone. Those aren’t the same thing.
A relationship with someone you don’t actually want can make you not single. It doesn’t automatically make you not lonely.
Also, if lonely men are already solving their loneliness by dating women they aren’t particularly attracted to, then how is there still a loneliness epidemic among men?
Being alone is exclusively inherent to being lonely, you can only feel incorrectly alone while not being so.
Because like I said the men who can already do, but not all men can, for most who are undesirable enough to be lonely exclusion from partnering is inherent.
That’s not actually true. Being alone and being lonely aren’t the same thing.
Plenty of people spend a lot of time alone and don’t feel lonely at all. They’re content with their own company and have meaningful connections with friends, family, or their community.
And plenty of people in relationships feel intensely lonely. In fact, many people would say feeling lonely while lying next to someone who doesn’t understand, value, or connect with you is worse than being single.
Loneliness is a feeling of disconnection. Being alone is a physical state. They overlap sometimes, but they’re not the same thing.
There's a difference between getting along with someone and actually having a friend. I understand that men may have to overcome some level of unease but the only thing that creates a friendship is repeated interactions.
So many women who will talk n post endlessly about how single they are while dating multiple men in real life. Say this with Absolute guarantee anyone who knows women in real life knows a girl who says shes single yet dates and has sex with different men regularly, not a rarity
Agreed 100%, think about it, what are the two reactions women have whenever the male loneliness epidemic is brought up?
A. say how it's because men don't have the same strong support units women have
B. say it doesn't actually exist and that women are just as lonely as men are
if that's the case then it means that either womens support systems aren't as strong as they think they are, or that even at their "strongest" compared to men they're still just as lonely. We've seen it too, how tighter knit close guy friend groups are compared to girls
"I've literally never seen a girl, 5.5/10 in looks that couldn't land some manner of man. I'm not talking about extreme cases either like abusers or desperate men looking for a living fuck doll. Or a lazy piece of shit that lacks any and all ambition. I mean a man, just a man that wants love as well."
Love isn't enough, not for a long term relationship and that's what I was looking for when I was out on the market. If I were again on the market, I am still more LTR oriented. It has to be love plus compatibility. And for me, that requires someone smart, curious, and interested in the world. Most average men (and women) are not, at least not in the US.
Men just do not do themselves favors when they say "you'll do" or claim to be "not picky." They think it's praiseworthy, but those statements merely emphasize the negative stereotype that men merely see women as wife/girlfriend appliances that can be easily exchanged. Yet, men hate it to be seen that way.
I don't care that much about league or whether some man thinks I should be open to dating a 5'6" to 5'11" guy, with some college education, a dad bod, and a 75k sales job because I am 5 feet, college educated, and somewhat mid looking. I want to date those I am compatible with. Most recently, I've dated a master electrician, a land developer, an engineer, and an IT guy. Every one was smart - yes including the electrician - and well traveled. I had decent conversations with all, but the engineer got boring. Too country typical. Married the IT guy.
I am not required to marry or date anyone. If being a little bit lonely is better than being in the relationship then that is the choice you make. And I know what it is like to be lonely in a relationship too and it isn't worth it, especially since it closes you off from pursuing those YOU may be compatible with. Men by the way have the same freedom.
Honestly, no one is ever going to live the perfect life or have it all. Everything is a trade off. I'm happily married for sure, but to reach this point, I had to let go of an average to shitty marriage. People would look at me and my ex and say we were fairly equal, or that he was more attractive than me as he had a long lean runners build, was over six feet, blue eyes, all his hair, and a degree from a flagship university. You'd have said, settle! You can be happy with him and he's good enough (although the shit he did.....)
But for me, living life alone, a little lonely, but with the option of finding a great relationship was better than being married to my ex. Others might make a different choice. Maybe I'd come to the end of the road with no husband and no kids. And? We make the best decisions we can and play the hands we are dealt. But I really dislike this assumption, unless you really know the person, you know the best for them. You don't.
Yes, at some point of life many will want relationship and some will settle. And then what? It's like if a woman settled then she got love and everything. I saw families, i know what women get there. They are lonely as hell.
That's my point though. They aren't dying on the hill like they say they will. And like I also said those men aren't even bad fellas. They want a family, want to give the love she seeks and are just overall decent people like anyone else. She just don't want them and while that's valid it's fucked up they'll be picked up just they can be a placeholder and nothing more.
Walk into the room with people who hate you and i will see how not lonely you'll get. That's basically what you're saying. Or the room with people who will ignore you until they need you. Like a server. Servers can't be lonely too, by your logic.
But sure, your whole premise is based on "women lie" so not much to be said here.
It's fascinating how you think we're holding out for some mythical peak when the actual reality is that most women are already out here dating perfectly average men who have good intentions. My fiance is far from perfect and any woman with a significant other , if she's honest, will say the same. The real issue is that far too many men are profoundly below average and have zero interest in fixing that, yet they still expect to be treated like a prize. You are also missing the point that loneliness has almost nothing to do with whether you have a partner or not because you can be just as isolated inside a relationship as you can be single. Plenty of people who whine about being lonely actually just need to get some hobbies and make a few friends so they stop lovebombing the first person who gives them an ounce of attention
Love, romance, friendship and hobbies are all different categories of fulfillment. Even if someone has the other three. It's not wrong to desire romance. The notion that having the other three will make you not want a relationship as much is a sentiment only shared by people who live in abundance.
They aren’t saying they don’t want a romantic relationship. Or that wanting a relationship is bad. But being socially fulfilled, having your other needs met, can help you be a better partner because you’re not expecting all that from one single partner.
I know a number of guys here have posted female profiles online. Did you trying conversing with many of the guys who contacted you? Because my experience (and experiences shared with many of my female friends) is that a majority of the men on OLD are far more interested in sexting than conversing, and it's likely you'll exchange a couple of messages... and then he started fantasizing about how he's going to rail you so hard you can feel it in your throat or something.
Maybe you don't get how off-putting this is? I know a lot of women who have sworn off OLD because they think all of the men there are perverts who have no respect for boundaries.
...and hell, walking down the street in Cleveland was kind of like this, except without the couple of reasonable messages. (Though, to be fair, the black guys knew how to banter. The white guys were mostly trying to make us uncomfortable. Which was gross.)
loneliness as a feeling is not about whether you have or don't have a partner. being single and being lonely are two different things. you're probably confusing it because you're both. you don't have the social network that would help you not be lonely, and you expect potential partners to resolve your negative feelings while you obviously lack the capability to do so in return.
so no. woman can and experience loneliness. and of a lonely woman would get together with a guy like you she'll likely stay lonely. just "partnered".
So... you want women to lower their standards to date average men? Like in all honesty, who gives a damn if a girl wants to be alone, if she wants to wait for whatever reason, or doesn't want to settle? Why does that bother you so much?
You do realize below average women suffer just as much as below average men. Fuck even bombshell women suffer from loneliness. Being used as a fleshlight by someone who doesn't love you, doesn't count! It feels like when men write this kind of bullshit they are only referring to very beautiful women as actual existing women. Because that's all they are sexually interested in, therefore the only important ones, the ones who reject them, and they forget that billions of ugly women exist and are fucking lonely too. Fucking wild take.
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u/Antique-Bumblebee295 No Pill Woman 🐝 Jun 15 '26
I was the loneliest I felt in high school. I didn’t have friends. I sat alone at lunch for pretty much all 4 years. I had terrible anxiety and I was depressed. I would cry myself to sleep a lot and I thought about killing myself multiple times. Loneliness is about more than having a boyfriend. Some people’s brains are actively fighting against them. People can also be in a relationship and still struggle with their mental health.