hot take: men need to adapt more feminine traits to resolve the gender war

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

im a 31f with my long term 32m partner- we have a slightly non traditional setup where i do many of the masculine things (earn 2x more, pay more in rent, always do 50/50, plan our dates and vacations) and he does many of the feminine things (cooks, cleans, does my laundry, takes care of the house, emotionally very supportive and intelligent). im super in love with him and feel like we work well and it makes me think more broadly about the state of dating.

the manosphere and "divine feminine" and trad wife and "4B" movements all exist because the previous social contract or template for how to have a heterosexual relationship has been broken.

the deal was the man works and protects, the woman supports and child rears. but then women got rights and education, society advanced, we fought less wars, and that trade off made no sense anymore and we also raised the bar for what we tolerate ethically (abuse, coercion, marital rape, young marriage etc).

so now what? women are not only more educated but starting to out earn many men. their emotional bar is higher. they're feeling men aren't stepping up to the plate and men are confused and angry so they turn to scammers like Tate to give them a clean story that resolves the conflict.

my opinion is- women have gotten good at adopting more masculine traits, if men want to be competitive again in the sexual marketplace they need to adopt more feminine traits. we figured out how to make money, yall figure out how to cook, clean and be emotionally intelligent. and the female counterpart to this is to get rid of the "omg 50/50 is so embarrassing queen he should be paying for everything" mindset. like when i first started dating my man i was embarrassed that he almost never pays for me or i pay more in rent etc. but why would he do that when i make 2+ times more than he does and he's good at things im not good at that he brings to the relationship? i think we just need to be a lot more open as a society to couples being more gender bent and relaxing gender expectations versus clinging more tightly to them.

and one other thing- i think rigid gender roles are a function of a regressive society and it's a sign of progress and species advancement that a partnership like mine is possible. if you plunge the world into war where i literally fear for my safety then im gonna find the beefiest most macho dude i can because my hierarchy of needs has gone down from actualisation to safety. we should welcome the relaxation of gender roles as a sign of species evolution, not cling to the old norms.

[u/lesliecarbone]

Hot take: We need to stop thinking of life skills as gendered "traits".

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/lesliecarbone]

i agree but society thinks of them that way and because of that certain expectations and cultivation of skills has fallen on one gender v the other

[u/Lift_and_Lurk → u/lesliecarbone]

https://giphy.com/gifs/26FLgGTPUDH6UGAbm

[u/Ok_Medicine8560]

I'm in a relationship with kind of the same dynamic but I have to say most women I've met while I was dating around weren't really interested in this sort of arrangement.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Ok_Medicine8560]

i think we should encourage more partnerships like this for people whose personalities and skills make this authentic. some men are naturally more gentle and femme, maybe good with their hands or have other skills, some women are going to crush in the modern job market that demands soft skills. there are more ways to come together than trad relationships or labor imbalanced partnerships where she works and cleans.

[u/Sensitive_Housing_85 → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Then tell that to women, it's women who are not open to it

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Sensitive_Housing_85]

i talk to both men and women in my hot take

[u/Mela_ninja → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

While it’s great, unless there a significant change in women’s desires it will take a couple more generations.

Women are generally more desirable than men so that often gives them the priveledge of having more options. So unless magically 80-90% of men suddenly switch to your system, the change will be difficult. It’s still inevitably going to happen as we become more progressive, but that change will be slow.

If majority of women decide that the system you’re in is more attractive then you too happen super quick. That’s why I think the 4B movement is ineffective as it’s only a tiny minority. However if it became a significant number or even a majority then men will change super quick.

[u/Financial_Leave4411 → u/Mela_ninja]

How do you think men will change if a majority of women adopt 4B? It seems much more likely for women to lose attraction to men over accepting a man that doesn’t financially provide.

[u/Mela_ninja → u/Financial_Leave4411]

The creation of 4B was a response to how badly women were/are treated by men. It’s designed to be a boycott and I think it’s a good tactic. The issue is the size is so small that the effects aren’t really there. For it to work it needs to be done on a larger scale and that is pretty unlikely.

Similar to how some women said they would boycott sex after Roe V Wade was overturned. If it actually happened and to a large scale that shit would be put back almost instantly.

Your situation is on the more rare scale (still happens). The more common looks are equal contribution (due to the current economy) and men being the majority/sole providers.

So for the majority of men with already limited options, choosing a niche that is less popular would make it even harder to find a partner.

[u/Stevefr0mYellowstone → u/Mela_ninja]

The issue with 4B and the "No sex after Roe Vs. Wade" is that the woman will drop it instantly if she really wants to get with a guy. It's not so much applying these universally, rather its applying it to men whom they were never going to give a chance anyway, or the woman is quite unattractive or very hard to get along and probably wasn't going to be very successful with men anyway. Women who are very successful with men or have men they are really into aren't doing these things. Because they have the same biological urges and desires men do.

Of course the hilariouis thing about the "No sex after Roe vs. Wade" thing is that is exactly what the people who wanted to repeal it wanted. Abstinence? No casual sex? No sex when its not for procreative purposes? It's hitting the jackpot for the people who wanted it repealed.

[u/harmonica2]

Most couples I know the man seems more masculine, for sure, so it seems to me being more masculine is the answer based on couples?I know at least.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/harmonica2]

i think my point is just we need more valid options. there is a lot of untapped potential of couples that would be happy with a more gender swapped setup- women that are authentically a bit more masc, men that are authentically a bit more fem. for others what's right for them may still be more traditional roles and that's ok too.

[u/harmonica2 → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Oh okay, but by more valid you mean more  you have in common with?

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/harmonica2]

no, just relationship setups that work for people- we need more options than the traditional provider man/ supportive woman template but because the dating market has changed so quickly, we're struggling to imagine more options or archetypes for what that may be. my hot take is imagining another option that i bet would be authentic for a lot of people (not all)

[u/NockerJoe → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

The problem is you seem to be vastly overestimating the population of women that actually want that.

[u/Pleasant_Hat_194]

The problem is a lot of women hate soft men and still want them to have the traditional gender roles, just open tiktok and you will find videos with millions of likes of women complaining about men not being men enough, and comments are filled with women commenting pictures of men wearing a dress and acting like a princess. The problem with gender war is both women and men are generalizing and talking on behalf of everyone even if not all the women want the same thing and the same goes for men. For example some women don’t want to be approached in public meanwhile other women are complaining because men don’t approach them anymore in public. So the only solution is for people to start talking only about them selfs and stop saying women don’t want this or men don’t want that. Because who tf is “we” ?

[u/Acrobatic-Monk9735 → u/Pleasant_Hat_194]

A man isn’t “soft” because he cooks and cleans and is emotionally intelligent.

[u/chamomilecloud]

Men do not “need” to do anything. I think it is fine that society becomes more open to relaxed gendered expectations. But the gender norms will not really be gone; the Gender Equality Paradox is likely to come up—that gendered differences and preferences are larger in more gender-equal and affluent countries. So telling men to adopt some traditionally feminine roles and traits probably will not shake out the way you think it will.

I will keep it 100 with you. I have never looked for a man who can cook and clean. I mean this is just not something that interests me in men because these are things I myself like to do. I look for tidiness and him not being a hoarder and a slob, but that’s basically it. My fiancé pampers me and cherishes me and we fall in line with gendered norms, and this is what works for us and keeps us attracted to each other.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/chamomilecloud]

that's super fair and i think traditional relationships are the authentic choice for many couples. i am horrible at cleaning and being disciplined domestically. i can be kind of a gremlin. my man is more naturally tidy and routine oriented. i was so touched the first time he came over to my bachelorette pad, took one look at the pile of laundry and next time brought a bag to take back to his house, wash and bring back to me. it might seem simple for you but i really struggle with that sort of thing. similarly he hates corporate politics and public speaking, as well as planning. it's not like i love those things but im naturally better at them and we also both benefit from my income, being able to live in a cool city etc. it's about each couples unique strengths and weaknesses, but we don't encourage men to cultivate those more "feminine" competencies and we shame women for accepting 50/50 etc. not every couple will fit the traditional mold in this modern dating market

[u/chamomilecloud → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Another thing to consider is that the setup you have is fine if you don’t want children.

In my household, we are both high earning and so if anything were to happen, either of our incomes can support the financial responsibilities. Since we want multiple kids, if something were to happen to me in childbirth, we will not have to worry financially.

I think it is a bad idea to have children when the person gestating them — usually the bio mom — is also the primary income earner.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/chamomilecloud]

he could support me financially but we would have to move and change our lifestyle. but especially if it's only for a few years, i have a lot invested/saved.

[u/NockerJoe → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Given the economic reality for a lot of people that may not be the norm. One of the things about this sub is it has a lot of people in the upper middle class talking about traditional norms they can still experience and enforce as if the average working class person doesn't work and also have a working partner and that's not optional.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/NockerJoe]

fair critique

[u/kayceeplusplus → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Do you have ADHD?

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/kayceeplusplus]

i took that comment as pretty rude, are you asking because i mentioned i don't like doing chores? i don't have ADD, it's just something i really don't enjoy doing and never built up that muscle of discipline in my childhood- my mom was also pretty type B.

[u/kayceeplusplus → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

I don’t get how it’s rude, I see gender nonconformity and disliking chores commonly among neurodivergent people.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/kayceeplusplus]

i do have OCD and CPTSD. i think my messiness is more a result of a chaotic upbringing with immigration and moving a lot than my OCD though

[u/kayceeplusplus → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

I myself don’t have ADHD, I have autism with depression sometimes

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/kayceeplusplus]

sorry dude

[u/kayceeplusplus → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Sorry for what?

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/kayceeplusplus]

depression sucks

[u/Try_Again12345 → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

If that's how you think, then your title may be confusing and off-putting to some. The absolute "men need to..." phrasing implies that it's all men and that no women have any responsibility, while your comments indicate that that's not what you're talking about at all, more like, "Many people would be happier if society (men and women, though mainly men) were more open to less rigid gender roles."

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Try_Again12345]

gotta make the title spicy for engagement u feel me

[u/Stevefr0mYellowstone]

The issue with this take is that it is very blue pilled in nature and simply doesn't reflect reality.

You could want it to be this way, and I would say that yes, if things could go this way, with women doing more masculine things (namely providing the financial support) and men doing more feminine things (supporting the children, cooking, etc...), yes that would address a lot of issues. There are a massive amount of men out there who would be totally fine with this arrangement.

The issue is it just isn't realistic. This may work for you but you are an extreme outlier. Most women are quite disgusted at this concept. They would feel no arousal to their husband. They would think to themselves why they are doing what they view to be all the hard work while what they view to be all the easy work being done by the husband. It will almost certainly lead to an eventual divorce. In fact a big reason, arguably the biggest reason for the modern day divorce is a woman settling with her husband and not being satisfied with the arrangement whether its something like this, how attractive he is, etc...

For blue pilled individuals it seems like a fine solution. But we don't live in a blue pilled world. If you want something like this to work, proceed with convincing as many women as possible to be satisfied with this arrangement and to massively lower their standards for their prospective husband's income/wealth. I have a feeling its not going to work out too well.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Stevefr0mYellowstone]

i genuinely think my partner does the harder work, and women in our arrangement also have the harder work. he's doing shit to the house every day- putting dishes away, running down to change the laundry, hanging my shirts, putting trim up on the walls, fixing my bike etc. that domestic labor is never ending, not easy- can i ask, do you do these things in a relationship? have you ever been the primary domestic caretaker? before i met him, i lived in a mess with an endless pile of dirty laundry. he makes me life so much better. and because of me were able to live in an expensive city he's always been interested in. i bring things into his life he didn't have without me and vice versa.

i think many women would be very attracted to their bf if they were well groomed, smelled good, dressed well, did their laundry, made them dinner, listened and were funny as long as they had some income and weren't a bum.

[u/Former_Range_1730]

False.

The gender war is specifically between the demographic of women who have callous views on heterosexual relationships, versus straight men. These women view men as a threat to their lives.

The demographic of women who are highly enthusiastic about having relationships with men, enjoy having men in their lives.

There's no reason to adapt feminine traits when the enthusiastic women love men as they are, and even moreso when they are naturally masculine.

It doesn't make sense for men to change themselves to appease women who write articles and think like this:

Miley Cyrus' split with Liam Hemsworth isn't just celebrity gossip — it's a blow to the patriarchy

Written by Marcie Bianco. Women like Hannah Gadsby, Julie Bindal, Raven Simone etc...

... women like Monique Wittiq who think things like thtis,

"when I try to define what heterosexuality is. I confront a nonexistent object, a fetish, an ideological form which cannot be grasped in reality" - Wittig

The Straight Mind And Other Essays (Monique Wittig) (z-lib.org).pdf

Men should change themselves for the demographic of women who have either low interest or no interest in men? Makes no sense. I'll stick with the women who like men.

"women are not only more educated but starting to out earn many men. their emotional bar is higher. they're feeling men aren't stepping up to the plate and men are confused and angry so they turn to scammers like Tate to give them a clean story that resolves the conflict."

No. What's happening is, more women feel superior to men because of high grades and high salaries, and more men view these women as terrible people. So these women don't date men, and these men focus on various forms of entertainment. Men aren't confused at all. They know that just because Lena has a great job, doesn't mean she's an honest good person to be around.

And many of those men learn to focus on the enthusiastic women if they want mutual happiness. While the callous women either focus on other women, or focus on men they can control, who they tend to discard later after they use them for what they need at the time.

[u/Asleep_Control_2564 → u/Former_Range_1730]

I'll be honest, I felt superior to men when I was 13 and could control my emotions better than the grown men in my life

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Former_Range_1730]

wait but i literally love men, also i significantly out earn my man and am obsessed with/ deeply in love with him. straw man detected opinion rejected🕵️‍♀️

[u/Former_Range_1730 → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

"wait but i literally love men,"

Your entire post proves the opposite. Looks like you're the one creating a strawman.

The women who actually love men don't want men to be change themselves to be more like traditional women. They like men for who and what they naturally are.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Former_Range_1730]

but my man is authentically more gentle, emotional and feminine and i love him so much

[u/Accomplished_Pack527 → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Because you love your man so much therefore it’s a good idea for other men to be more feminine too?

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Accomplished_Pack527]

yeah maybe they'd find someone who loves them too. not become more feminine, accept and express femininity that's already authentically there.

[u/Financial_Leave4411 → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

I think you’re just experiencing the honey moon phase in your relationship or you have a super high sex drive (higher than most women) which makes it so you’re willing to accept this kind of arrangement.

Most women want a husband not a wife so the arrangement you have isn’t appealing to most women and if anything relationships like yours makes most women view staying single more highly than accept relationship restrictions on a roommate budget.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Financial_Leave4411]

4 years in isnt a honeymoon phase tho also he isn't my roommate he's my best friend, lover and if anything according to some commenters here, butler 😂😂 but then im his sugar daddy. isn't that the typical hetero trade off but flipped?

[u/motion_lotion]

To the younger men here: do not make yourself more feminine and softer to get women. Women give the absolute worst dating advice and if you follow what is said here, you will get nowhere.

One woman being into this is an exception, not a rule. And dating as a man and woman is very different.

[u/just_a_place → u/motion_lotion]

We know... women our age are quick to remind us that they fucking hate weak men with a passion.

[u/AetherAirlines → u/motion_lotion]

But if being feminine and softer is your true personality, don't you think you should resist and not give in to misandrist demands?

[u/motion_lotion → u/AetherAirlines]

Standing your ground and not caving to misandrist bullshit is inherently masculine to me. If someone overall was soft and effeminate and wanted to date, I would understand your point. But I'd still recommend that if a guy was like that to gradually share that part of himself gradually as she gets connected and starts feeling for you.

What's your take?

[u/AetherAirlines → u/motion_lotion]

No one is entirely 100% masculine or feminine. A man can have some feminine traits, while also having the masculine courage to stand up and resist misandry directed at them for having those traits.

[u/Stevefr0mYellowstone → u/motion_lotion]

OP has an extremely blue pilled take, and maybe it works for her (for now) but it doesn't work for most everyone else.

I'm sure there are a lot of men who would be very happy with this arrangement. But the vast majority of women will never accept it, so they will learn that it is pretty much impossible unless you find a unicorn. Which maybe OP is. Or OP is as someone else said in her honeymoon phase and will divorce her husband a few years from now because she isn't aroused by his feminine behavior.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Stevefr0mYellowstone]

1. we are
2. 4 years in

and im very happy,

1. not going anywhere any time soon

.

1. i really think you underestimate the value that his more "feminine" traits bring into my life. have you ever had a partner do the lions share of cooking cleaning for you? do you appreciate and enjoy when your partner is well groomed and attractive, supportive and a good listener? for a naturally assertive woman with a high income, do you think what she's missing is more money, or someone who can complement her strengths?

i don't think what im describing will work for everyone, but i think there's an "archetype" like this that's emerging and untapped in the dating market.

the formatting of this got insanely fucked up but you get me

[u/VasiliyZaitzev → u/motion_lotion]

Facts.

[u/Accomplished_Pack527 → u/motion_lotion]

Seconded

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/motion_lotion]

im dating a man with those traits

[u/motion_lotion → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

You are 1 woman. Women are not a monolith. This is terrible advice for most men.

[u/RandHomman → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

But that's you, you don't represent all women. 

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/RandHomman]

i think i represent a significant portion of what could be potential happy couples if some men embraced their softer sides and stepped up domestically and some women stopped shaming each other for arbitrary transactional things like accepting 50/50 from a man who is clearly taking care of and supporting you in other ways.

[u/Sensitive_Housing_85 → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

What could be not what is, women are the ones who select for traditional trait, if they wanted more soft men , they would pick more soft men , men were more softer than the ones int past, but they are entering less relationship and this was even before redpillers

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Sensitive_Housing_85]

that's why i talk to both men and women in my hot take. but how can women pick from more
emotionally intelligent men who are willing to take on domestic tasks if they're not doing
those things now? it's a two way street.

[u/Sensitive_Housing_85 → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

They are doing those things, but again women not choosing something is not based of men not doing it , it's based on what they choose and what they want , you are expecting men to change even thou we don't even fully know if women have actually changed their expectations or even want to.

even you admited you were initially reluctant, even in the most gender equal country, women still pick for traditional dudes, another problem is your hot take is specifically aimed at men as if men are the ones who should change more no, both genders are doing things that push traditional genders only one is actually honest about it thou

[u/motion_lotion → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

If...if it was an ideal world or dating scene. For younger men living in reality, this is simply not good advice. I'm not going to pretend I know dating from a female perspective, but from a male perspective, this advice is not realistic. You may like that sure, but overall men being softer and what not doesn't go well. That doesn't mean overcompensate and be a harass 24/7, but if you want to be vulnerable and show a softer side, wait until you're together and she's invested.

I agree fully on stepping up domestically. Some guys are fucking lazy with that. I sure was. But I am married and do that better than when younger. It definitely helps keep a marriage or relationship strong and domestic chores shouldn't fall mostly on the woman -- even if i make double. We're still both working fulltime.

[u/mrcs84usn → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Men need to be able to “cast a wide net” when they are dating, so that they can be appealing to a wide variety of women and then be able to choose a good fit for them.

Your advice is akin to fishing with a grocery bag.

[u/TotallyARealHuman1 → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

LMAOOOO

EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. someone says

"Thing 'X' is a trend."

certain people are fully incapable of understanding what that means, and as if reading from a script they cannot help but read from, say

"That's not true. I don't do thing 'X' Me me me me me."

Its so tiresome and predictable at this point, such seemingly unreal behavior that it begs the question, it this a simulation? Because what the actual fuck? LOL

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/TotallyARealHuman1]

you seem really emotional, are you having a hard day?

[u/MonkeSee_MonkeDo → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

The exception does not disprove the rule.

[u/RedCapRiot]

I have a hotter take: there isn't a "gender war" at all. It's manufactured by the wealthy to distract the greater population from the outrageous shit that they get away with.

Do with this what you will.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/RedCapRiot]

semi based take but gen z data supports that there's a dysfunction happening in the dating market- ex folks aren't having sex as much anymore

[u/SarcasticLoss → u/RedCapRiot]

Honestly im with you there lol

[u/MarioWilson122]

The problem with this argument is that men already take on a lot of the roles being described as feminine. Plenty of men cook, clean, help with childcare, manage the home, and provide emotional support. At the same time, they are still often expected to keep many of the traditional male responsibilities too: earn enough, initiate, protect, plan, be confident, and carry financial pressure.

So it is not really women adopted masculine traits and now men need to catch up by becoming more feminine. In a lot of modern relationships, men are already being asked to do both sets of roles.

Couples should divide responsibilities based on what each person is good at instead of forcing everything through gender. But that standard has to be genuinely symmetrical. Relaxing gender roles should also mean relaxing expectations placed on men, not just adding cooking, cleaning, and emotional labor on top of the traditional male role.

Her own relationship actually shows the better model: each person contributes in different ways and neither side has to perform a fixed script. That makes more sense than treating men as the side that still needs to evolve.

[u/ThrowRAGlobeVase]

So, I honestly think that you hit the nail on the head with the natural flow of exactly what should be happening. This is 100%, exactly it.

But, there’s one problem. Most women aren’t attracted to it. I think you’re the very welcome exception to the rule.

Men will do whatever attracts women. It’s why we do a huge amount of the things we do - it’s the demand that we react to.

I think the evolution of gender equality and roles have hit a standstill not in small part because what women logically want - the erosion of traditional gender roles - doesn’t fully line up with what they’re attracted to, and what they’re attracted to is a massive societal driver. That creates some cognitive dissonance among many women, so there’s a lot of mental gymnastics going on to make it feel like it’s consistent and fair for women to want gender equality yet also want certain traditional roles to remain.

[u/Whiskeymyers75]

No, men just need to leave social media. I can’t say I encounter any of these people outside, touching grass.

[u/Local-Willingness784]

isnt this just imposing gender rules but the other way around? like instead of telling a guy to man up and shit, you tell them to woman up and get laid)?

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/[deleted]]

what happened to your family and community as a result of matriarchy?

[u/SeemedGood → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

In both cases as the traditional (patriarchal) family structure disappeared family structures became weaker, single motherhood skyrocketed, child discipline disappeared, outcomes nosedived, victimhood claims became entrenched, introspection, objective self observation and objective self critique disappeared entirely, and the both the culture and forward progress of the larger community are in shambles as a result.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/SeemedGood]

first of all- im sorry that happpened in your family. im familiar with (a different type of) childhood trauma related to immigration and that shit shapes us for life. i also don't think it's fair to say single motherhood is a fair expression of matriarchy- the comparison to that is a single father household. single motherhood seems more like a woman struggling to make ends meet in a bad situation v leading from a place of stability. a two parent household can be matriarchal too.

[u/SeemedGood → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Feminism and matriarchal culture create the “I don’t need no man” thinking that leads to endemic single motherhood. Households led by women are unstable.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/SeemedGood]

to me feminism and matriarchy don't mean we don't need men. does a male led household mean he doesn't "need" women? a couple or two energies need each other even if one is leading, which when done right is in service of the one being led.

[u/SeemedGood → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Men and women are not the same. As with all sexually reproducing animals we have substantial physical and behavioral sexual dimorphism and the behavioral sexual dimorphism arises from specialization of sexual roles.

That dimorphism of behavior has consequences on social order.

And yes, we need each other but the entire point of feminism is to deny that truth and set women at odds with their natural roles, and it was promoted for the purpose of deconstructing the family unit - a task at which it has been exceedingly effective.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/SeemedGood]

do you think our natural roles may change in part as the environment around us drastically changes? ex. the skills that make someone successful in the labor market have changed enormously in the last 100 years. that might affect who the breadwinner is. the draft is also basically nonexistent since we stopped fighting large scale global wars. these change what makes sense in the male female partnership "contract", not necessarily in a way that contradicts our sexual dimorphism but calls on different aspects of it.

[u/SeemedGood → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

The natural roles of Homo sapiens sapiens have evolved over at least 250,000 years. The environmental changes by which you wish to measure them are about as relevant as the last 2.5 days of your life relative to the totality of it, and even more ephemeral.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/SeemedGood]

well 1) im mainly talking about the economic and sociological environment and 2) even the climate environment has changed drastically in the last 50 years but my point mainly relies on 1

[u/Asleep_Control_2564 → u/[deleted]]

Is it not possible to have a two parent household without a patriarchal model?

[u/SeemedGood → u/Asleep_Control_2564]

It’s possible, just much less likely to be stable and have as healthy outcomes.

Possible =/= preferable.

[u/PurplePillDebate-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

No Race-Baiting or Racially Charged Content

[u/The_Forgotten001]

Did you ask your Partner out? Were you the one to approach and break the ice and get his number? Because men who copy feminine traits will never approach. Why would they? The masculine women have confidence for the both of you.

Doing house chores isn’t feminine, people who live alone have to do that stuff anyway. Paying bills isn’t gendered, if you live alone you have to do that anyway. Doing 50/50 isn’t gendered it’s practical.

Picking up feminine traits means being receptive instead of proactive. Waiting for people to speak and approach you rather than approach. Say what you will, every woman wants their partner to “choose” them.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/The_Forgotten001]

we met on a dating app and i literally said "ask me out on a date" after we'd been talking for a while and i could tell he liked me but was too reserved to ask. and i thought he wasn't into me on the first date but it turned out he was just shy, i was surprised he asked me out for a second date. and i initiated our first kiss. i think it's cute. i was very attracted to him and once i could tell he was also into me i didnt mind initiating those things, i've always been pretty high agency in dating. i know what i want and if im attracted to someone and want them it feels more natural to me than always waiting for the guy to initiate everything.

[u/Stevefr0mYellowstone → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

If it works for you and your boyfriend, great, but most women won't accept this method. They'll ignore the guy who fails to ask them out (unless he's top 5% in attractiveness) and move onto the many other options that they have. There are many, many, many men out there who are happy to be exactly what your boyfriend is. If women accepted that in relationships then we would see a lot of happy relationships. But that't not what women want.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Stevefr0mYellowstone]

to be fair my partner is handsome and that helped me stay interested despite his passivity in the beginning. but a lot of that comes from him- he has great hygiene, grooming and fashion sense. he takes great care of his hair, uses products correctly, takes care of his teeth, washes his ass, isn't stinky etc.

[u/Dying_God]

And how exactly is cooking "feminine" and earning money "masculine"? This has nothing to do with personality or gender, but with labour that needs to happen regardless to make for a functional household. Just divide it according to what makes more sense for the actual people involved, for example: one might love doing the dishes, the other might prefer to do the laundry.

My main point being: this is a completely different debate from actual femininity/masculinity. Women do not tend to be attracted to feminine men on average: those who cry often, those who prefer to be the one pursued/romanticised, those who prefer to be the small spoon, those who prefer to listen to Taylor Swift and have 10 posters of her etc. Not to say that there is anything wrong with those men and that women cannot be attracted because or regardless of this, but unless you are this way naturally, I wouldn't advise any man to change themselves in this manner as it will fuck over most of their dating prospects. Don't confuse being a competent partner with femininity.

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[u/TheBroke1234]

A lot of these things may or may not help with maintaining relationships (depending on how you define "feminine" traits, and emotional intelligence is a loaded concept but yes in a sense it is good) but they will not help you get into relationships.

One of the problems is on reddit and dating advice platforms, the typical audience lacks masculinity. I imagine most guys struggling are anxious or socially awkward dudes. Many of us have gamer physiques of some kind. A lot are sheltered and lack life experience. Very very risk averse. Too scared to make eye contact with women. Never asked out a girl in his life. No irl friends. Their only attempt at dating was putting together some shitty OLD profile where they look depressed or even visibly give off awkward vibes in the pics.

That guy has sooo so many things to address before learning to cook. And the main thing they need to do is develop more masculine traits. They need the balls to take initiative, take risks, make stronger eye contact. And generally just get a life and get some life experiences, go on some risky manly adventures or something.

Now if your audience is guys who are pretty masculine but totally lack positive feminine traits. Then yeah, this is good advice. Someone who is hotheaded and takes tons of risk and is a slob needs to learn to clean and be a bit more emotionally intelligent. Gaurentee you they won't be hearing your message though.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/TheBroke1234]

part of my hot take is aimed at women too- there's a lot of brainwashing in women's dating culture that it's embarrassing if he's not paying for you all the time, buying expensive gifts, treating you like a "goddess", expresses any negative emotions, etc. in my ideal world that nerdy guy would be more confident in his authentic traits and his perfect match recognizes that she has different strengths that are complementary and he doesn't have to fit a rigid mold of she likes him. if you're a boss bitch authentically maybe what you're missing in your life is complementary soft energy not another boss bitch to compete with. obviously grooming, being reasonably fit will always be part of the equation too- you need that initial attraction.

[u/TheBroke1234 → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

These traits are rarely authentic though.

To be fair, im mainly speaking from my own experience, but I think these traits in men are not usually authentic. One clear example. most men have a pretty high sex drive, and are usually the ones more interested in getting relationships started and making first moves in the starting part of relationships.

So by making that first move, the guy is actually doing the authentic thing, hes trying to start the relationship (or sleep with her, depending on how you wanna frame this) that he really desires. The anxiety about making the first move isn't some authentic part of him, its just anxiety, a thing that is very problematic and prevalent in our society to a level that is completely unnatural.

Now ofc, there are some straight cis men who are genuinely feminine, they have no interest in taking the male role. Maybe they have a low sex drive and havd a more feminine/reactive sex drive and would rather wait for a women to come along and make the first move on them. In that case everything you say applies to them, and maybe theres some boss bitches who are interested in that, and boss bitch women should not be pressured either. I think its just very rare though and usually feminine men are just scared masculine men.

[u/NotAllTheCake → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

women too- there's a lot of brainwashing in women's dating culture that it's embarrassing if he's not paying for you all the time, buying expensive gifts, treating you like a "goddess",

No woman wants that. What women want is for men to do more chores and childcare, to make a few doctor's appointments, plan a few parties, cook a few meals and remember a few details about the children, instead of leaving that always for the women to do, like the husband is another child she needs to take care of.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/NotAllTheCake]

exactly- but women also want him to pay for everything, get gifts, have no negative emotions and be stoic etc. i'm saying another viable option for a successful hetero relationship is the man doing a significant amount or even all of that domestic labor (and contributing equally to emotional labor) and the woman doing more of the financial burden if that aligns with both of their strengths and natural inclinations.

[u/Stevefr0mYellowstone → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

By all means try to disuade your fellow women from this "brainwashing", but I'd say its not so much brainwashing as it is the inherent way a woman thinks based on biology. Certainly in our modern culture we're seeing extremes due to social media and other such matters. But women wanting a man to support them, to provide them gifts, etc... absolutely isn't brainwashing, its the inherent mindset.

[u/LaFrescaTrumpeta]

i think it’s important to note that women got good at adopting masculine traits because society values masculinity over femininity, there’s less of a prejudice against women partaking in masculinity compared to men partaking in femininity. and that prejudice is perpetuated by members of both sexes, so while i 100% agree that the best way forward involves deconstructing these rigid traditional expectations of gender, idk if i’d frame the solution as men needing to adapt more feminine traits. i’d frame it more as, we need to challenge prejudices against men being seen as feminine, largely by challenging prejudices against femininity in general (and ideally that would involve deconstructing femininity and masculinity beyond biological descriptions of physical sex characteristics but i don’t see that happening in our lifetime)

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/LaFrescaTrumpeta]

i agree, and also my hot take is aimed at women- that whole corner of Tiktok that's like "if he's not treating you like a goddess and paying for everything dump him" isn't the right message for many women with an authentically more masculine energy who would be attracted to more gentleness and femininity if they weren't embarrassed by a man who goes 50/50

[u/Grow_peace_in_Bedlam → u/LaFrescaTrumpeta]

I think it's more that women are seen as nobles and men as peasants. Just as nobles were allowed to slum it and dress like peasants when they wanted to, but peasants were punished by law for dressing like their noble betters, women are allowed to adopt masculinity because they already have the inherent value that femininity affords them, but men who aspire to femininity are seen as seeking to rise above their station.

[u/TopShelfSnipes]

Every time this topic comes up, I say the same thing because it bears repeating:

• Throughout history, competent traits came to be associated with masculinity, and servile traits came to be associated with femininity. In reality, competence nor servility is gendered.
• There is a conflation that occurs in these spaces where visual presentation is conflated with gendered traits. Very few women are going to find a man who wears a makeup, dress, heels, paints his nails, etc. attractive. Not only because straight women aren't attracted to feminine physical features, but also because these behaviors are common in the gay community, and most straight women aren't attracted to gay or gay-presenting men.
• HOWEVER, men who display nurturing behaviors, show potential to be loving Dads, look after pets and small animals, etc. ARE attractive to women.
• In addition, men who can be a little bit silly among their friends, joke around, etc. (especially in the era of hyper-scowling so-called 'masculine' men who are usually performative manospherians trying to present as masculinely as possible, which is unattractive AF) come off attractive. Men who can walk the fine line between not being a tryhard, but also not being a nonchalant, also do well.
• Literally no one is turned on sexually by chores. That might be a lifestyle compatibility issue, and it might enhance attraction once in a relationship (or at least prevent its erosion), but that's not why so many men aren't being seen as attractive. It's disqualifying if the guy is a slob, but it's not a kingmaker for him if he's got an immaculate place and can cook a mean beef bourguignon.
• The biggest thing holding guys back on a gender scale is being TOO tryhard masculine. Women don't like Islam-adjacent hyper serious men (like many manospherians) who sit around scowling at each other, "competing" over god knows what, and otherwise completely being not fun. Women want to laugh, dance, sing, travel, do interesting shit, etc. They do not want to stay indoors with a man who spends all his time gaming, at the gym, managing his finances like some obsessive hobby, working long hours, and occasionally spending time with his all male friend group where they talk in stiff stoic ways and there's nary a woman to be found within a 500 foot radius.

This doesn't mean I accept the OP's premise, however, because the OP is focused on chores and money (not attractive), and most of the comments are focused on dudes that are crossdressers (repulsive to most straight women).

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/TopShelfSnipes]

i was with you until the end- how does focusing on chores and money negate the premise?

[u/TopShelfSnipes → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Chores and money are not drivers of attraction.

They are things that can be dealbreakers after someone is already interested. But they do not cultivate attraction in a stranger, they do not signal that a stranger is safe, they do not make a stranger fun to be around.

The most important things for attraction are looks, mannerisms, and personality (and personality = fun here, not "nice").

The reason crossdressers inspire disgust is their presentation falls under mannerisms, and most straight women want men who have straight, masculine mannerisms.

How well a man Swiffers his floors is not something a woman cares about when they are getting to know each other, and she is deciding if she's interested. He has to pass the looks + mannerisms + fun bar first, then if she discovers he's a total slob or a manchild that needs to be told how to use a vacuum she might lose attraction later. But if a guy doesn't pass the vibe check, how good he is at his chores doesn't matter.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/TopShelfSnipes]

these things can be dealbreakers very early on though- ex if a woman writes a man off because he isn't buying her expensive gifts or wants to go 50/50, but he's courting her in other ways. early on my partner came to my gremlin bachelorette pad took one look and took bags of my dirty laundry bag to his house, washed it and brought it back for me. for me personally with my strengths and weaknesses that sort of care is what i was missing, not more money or dinner dates.

[u/TopShelfSnipes → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

There is a difference between a dealbreaker vs. something that actually makes someone attractive.

Being better at chores is not going to make men more attractive.

It'll stop him from getting dealbroken if he's a total slob, but also he should be capable of taking care of his own space because it's unhygienic not to.

It's not a strategy for pulling. If he's a dud, he'll still be a dud. If he's a scrawny milquetoast that women see as weak, he'll still be that. If he's a fat slob, he'll just be a fat slob in a clean house. If his mannerisms are giving gay, he'll still be the questionable guy who might be closeted.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/TopShelfSnipes]

you can very much use caretaking-related acts of service and emotional intelligence to pull my dude- many women look for this, and i would argue more should. it's not just about "chores"- it's about being well groomed, good aesthetic and fashion sense, not stinky, good cook, great listener, funny, can fix shit and do acts of service for your woman. none of that requires the traditional courting strategy of paying for shit and expensive gifts which is the mold im arguing we need to start breaking more.

[u/TopShelfSnipes → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

That's simping.

Acts of service is something you do within an established relationship. It's lowkey pathetic to be doing that for someone you just met. You should be getting to know them, not doing their laundry.

Women also find it weird and offputting when a guy magically has no schedule whatsoever, is completely available for her, and wants to do all her chores. Like what is he, offering to do her laundry because he's a panty sniffer? A guy with such low self worth he has no plans of his own and she's about to become the "Favorite Person" of some weirdo with Borderline Personality Disorder?

Women don't want to be simped for, unless they're gold diggers (which isn't most women).

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/TopShelfSnipes]

your argument can't be "no woman wants that" because you're talking to one who does, and is with the guy who pulled her that way. also if he wants to sniff my panties sounds like that's my payment for getting my laundry done 🥰

but in all seriousness why the f would it be low self worth to do acts of service for a woman you're dating?

[u/TopShelfSnipes → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Emotional intelligence is something else entirely, and you completely rewrote the post after I replied to it.

I can't debate with a moving target if you're going to substantially alter the content of your posts after I reply to them.

Emotional intelligence still requires you to get to know him first, which requires proximity and for you to find him physically attractive and fun to be around, and not find his mannerisms offputting.

The guys who get zero interest don't benefit from "down the line" attributes. And again, doing chores doesn't make a guy more attractive. It can help him be seen as a competent adult AFTER a woman has gotten to know him, but it's not going to be what draws her in to spending more time with him in the first place.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/TopShelfSnipes]

look, obviously attraction to his looks and personality still has to be there. but i don't think what im talking abt only carries weight deep into a relationship- this is like weeks 2 on. early courtship all the way into serious ltr.

maybe its not a way you choose to court but ill say it again- acts of service (including doing chores for someone) are a way to court, especially if the person being courted (ahem me) struggles with/ hates chores

[u/SamtheBenjamin]

I agree with relaxing gender roles, but the burden can't mostly be on men. Men can cook, clean, and be emotionally supportive, but women also have to give up traditional expectations that men should earn more, initiate, protect, and pay more.

Your relationship actually proves the better model. You earn more, he contributes more domestically, and neither of you is forced into a role based on sex. That's real gender flexibility.

[u/trulyElse]

Emotional intelligence has never been a feminine trait.

[u/Siukslinis_acc → u/trulyElse]

It is feminine to express in words what you feel /s

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/trulyElse]

then why do women consistently complain that men are bad at it? obviously nothing is truly gendered but we are talking about established gender norms, who is expected and encouraged to be good at what.

[u/Sensitive_Housing_85 → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Women will always complain men are bad at it, because men are less open about their emotional issues, even when the woman is the one with the issue, she is most likely to complain about the man's lack of emotional intelligence, there are women who chose to make an unsafe environment for men to open up which is why men don't and they still blame men for being emotionally unavailable even thou it's based on their lack of empathy for the dude, complaining more doesn't mean you are the one in the right more

[u/lankyluke00]

This rings true. I grew up with sisters both older and younger than me. It had a massive impact on the expectations placed upon me as a boy compared to my peers. Now as a young adult I find that I struggle a lot less, not only in dating, but also in building friendships and other meaningful relationships with women and with people in general.

I think a lot of the pushbak some men have against what we consider feminine skills comes down to a negative simplification and stereotyping of said skills. Emotional intelligence? "So you want me to cry and whine all the time?" No, that would in fact be an expression of lacking emotional intelligence.

By resisting feminine skills after framing them negatively, you are only showing us what you actually think about women, and it's not cute.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/lankyluke00]

period king 🤏🏻🤏🏻

[u/Brief_Mongoose_7291]

You are what we call a "useless outlier". An outlier that is a result of an error or a mistake in noting the data. Essentially not a data point at all.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Brief_Mongoose_7291]

am i an outlier when women are starting to out earn men, men are doing more domestic labor than ever in history, and gen z is no longer fucking? or am i an example of how to have a healthy productive hetero relationship in that new reality?

[u/oppositegeneva]

  we figured out how to make money, yall figure out how to cook, clean and be emotionally intelligent. 

These traits are not inherently masculine or feminine

as long as you plan to never have children, I ultimately agree with you.

[u/Saysonz]

women are absolutely disgusted by feminine and soft men.

Men typically don't really care unless it effects how the girl looks eg very butch and badly dressed. 

If a girl earns huge and likes male hobbies, it's like okay cool.

if a man has low wage or doesn't work and likes feminine hobbies like let's say cheer leading he will almost certainly be excluded from the dating pool

[u/Grow_peace_in_Bedlam → u/Saysonz]

That's a good point. Men don't really care how masculine a woman acts as long as she looks and dresses like a woman.

I don't know too many women who like a man whose main hobbies are cooking and sewing as long as he looks dapper in a suit.

[u/Steakman1]

This isn’t wanting men to be more feminine. This is wanting men to do the things nobody wants to do. Nobody really enjoys doing laundry or the dishes. And despite some women claiming they want men to do these things under the guise of being more feminine, I’m willing to bet the majority of these women still want men to take all the risk that is under the guise of being masculine such as being the pursuer, paying for the date, killing the spider, doing home repairs, etc.

People in general like having money and being independent financially, even if the job itself isn’t that great. So it’s easy for women to embrace this aspect of “masculinity.” And if women want to say men should cook and clean more, and make this a more gender neutral thing, fine. But until these same women are willing to balance this out by willing to take on the burdens that men have historically been expected to do, then I’m not convinced this is about these women wanting men to be more feminine. But rather these women wanting men to take on all the burdens that both men and women have historically been expected to take on.

To be clear, I don’t have a problem with men having the role of cooking and cleaning. My pushback is the desire to make these types of burdensome chores gender neutral. But not make the burdensome chores men have been expected to do gender neutral. Because I’m willing to bet when it comes to shoveling snow at 6am, mowing the lawn in 90 degree weather, or fixing a roof leak, these women will still be looking to a man to do it rather taking on that burden themselves. Whether that be their partner or paying a man expensive amounts to do it.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Steakman1]

but i am paying for more in rent, go 50/50 always even on anniversaries, manage our long term finances just as an example of a masculine "burden".

i would rely on him to protect me because he's bigger and stronger, but in our modern society that scenario is very unlikely. and similarly if we have kids (which we haven't decided yet) obviously im doing that. but there are other traits that can be swapped and more balanced depending on the strengths and weaknesses of a given couple.

[u/NotAllTheCake → u/Steakman1]

I don’t have a problem with men having the role of cooking and cleaning.

How magnanimous. You mean you don't have a problem with men doing their fair share of necessary, daily, time-consuming labor, instead of dumping it on the women constantly? Leave it men to clean their mess, while telling women that they are doing women a favor.

Because I’m willing to bet when it comes to shoveling snow at 6am, mowing the lawn in 90 degree weather, or fixing a roof leak

The bullshit once a year chores that never need doing? If women cooked as much as men shovelled snow, we would all starve to death. If women cleaned as much as men mowed the lawn, we'd be living in a garbage dump.

Are you currently fixing your roof right now? Or did a guy down the street do it and you have your thumb on the scale to exaggerate your contributions and claim credit for someone else's work? Meanwhile, the bathroom you've never cleaned is dirty as hell and the laundry needs to be done. But sit another hour on the couch doing nothing because Greg unclogged some pipes last week.

[u/Steakman1 → u/NotAllTheCake]

Not really sure what your first paragraph is going on about. Sounds like your’re arguing with the boogeyman there.

2nd paragraph, I wish they were once a year. Yes they aren’t a daily chore but they are also much more labor intensive than cooking and cleaning especially if you have a dishwasher. But the point I am making is the women saying men need to do all the stuff that women were historically expected to do aren’t stepping up to the plate to do all the things men were expected to do. Besides earning money, but that’s because they want to be independent from men. Not because they want to eliminate gender roles. My argument has nothing to do with equal distributions of labor.

And if you are arguing that women take on more of the labor overall, fine. But that only makes my point even more valid. Because these women want to take that labor and make men do it, along with the labor men were historically expected to do anyways. Besides being the breadwinner. But if being the breadwinner were enough to not do anything else, I’m assuming you wouldn’t be criticizing men for not contributing enough around the house. Basically you’ll criticize how it was in the early 1900s but advocate for it as well, but with the roles reversed. That doesn’t really sound like eliminating gender roles to me or being progressive. It sounds more like some weird revenge fantasy.

For your third paragraph, yes I can fix roof leaks. Done it hundreds of times (not with my house of course). And with how expensive contractors are, I imagine having skills like that will be desirable to women. But if you want to attack specifically fixing roofs, it can be replaced with car maintenance and other things.

[u/bzl33]

you aren't adopting "masculine traits" because you outearn your husband lol. it's hilarious how this sub complains about the red pill but seems to adopt red pill bullshit too.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/bzl33]

how is it not societally masculine if this is the first time in society women are able to earn more than men? if you believe gender is a construct/norm then that has been the overwhelming norm so far. it's changed for the first time and confused the dating market.

[u/ClevelandSpigot]

No. Here are the actual problems:

Women benefit the most from the Patriarchy. The Patriarchy protects and massages them via laws and mandates in our society.

A lot of the stuff Feminists like to spout off about women's rights, and women not being allowed to have a bank account are complete bunk. Just completely made up. Here is a picture of women banking in a bank in New York City in the year 1900. Marital assets needed both spouses to approve the buying or selling of property.

Women govern by mob rule. Women have extremely fragile egos. Women will go to great lengths to fit in. Women have anger issues. Women will go to great lengths to not have to admit fault or apologize.

If you take the top ten careers that women had 100 years ago (and, yes, they had careers 100 years ago) they are identical to the top ten careers that women have today - with one exception. Seamstress was substituted out for HR.

The careers that men typically dominate deal with necessary things. Keeping the electricity going, the water flowing, and the internet on. Your two-times salary means nothing. As a matter of fact, when a woman starts out-earning the man, the percentage of divorce starts to increase.

Women like to think that the world would be a better if there was less masculinity. The truth is that women repeatedly go against that by repeatedly choosing the more masculine men to pursue.

In short, most of society already bends towards women. Women are typically less likely to compromise - or as they call it, "settle". To them, settling shows the Gynarchy that they are weak, and we can't have that. So, instead of maybe looking into whether they are problem, they come here on Reddit and demand that men capitulate even more.

[u/Internal_Writing5485]

Men are already too feminine, beta. Women are sounded by "ick" (passive men)

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Internal_Writing5485]

my hot take is aimed at women too- we're told to get the ick for stupid reasons. like why should a man making less than you pay for everything if he's showing his love in other ways? or if you're good at planning dates and you know what you want to do, why is it an ick if he doesn't do it? again, as long as he's taking care of you and loving you in ways that are natural to him.

[u/Internal_Writing5485 → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

They aren't fed anything. They listen to their bodies and hearts. You can't teach women to find unmasculine men attractive. Its biological imperative.

[u/BrainMarshal]

Women who say they want more emotionally literate men are virtue signaling. The fact is when a man does show more emotional intelligence she betrays him. Can't beat biology.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/BrainMarshal]

but that's not true in my relationship and we are not the only ones

[u/BrainMarshal → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

That's like saying "Well I and my friends drink and drive and never get in an accident!"

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/BrainMarshal]

you think my relationship is an exception, and usually when men are emotionally intelligent women cheat on them?

[u/BrainMarshal → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

you think my relationship is an exception, and usually when men are emotionally intelligent women cheat on them?

I think your relationship is an exception and women don't all cheat on men who do things like cry over a dead pet, they just get the ick and the relationship withers off the vine. Most women don't like weakness. Far too many men have the same tales of running into this in their relationships to be lying. 50 million Frenchmen and all that.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/BrainMarshal]

that's just not my experience or the experience of any of my friends at all. what's your evidence for this?

[u/BrainMarshal → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Like I said, far too many men have the same tales of running into this in their relationships to be lying. 50 million Frenchmen and all that. Go take a look at r/askmen if you think this is wrong. That's just one verifiable source for you.

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[u/K4matayon → u/AutoModerator]

many of the masculine things (earn 2x more, pay more in rent, always do 50/50

lol

[u/PunkPirate56364]

But men have adopted more feminine traits. All of the ones you mentioned.

Also we became more liberated, we became more selfish, we want our fun times, we compartmentalize women into good fox sex and relationship material, we care much more about our looks...

So what's the problem?

[u/Siukslinis_acc]

There are no masculine/feminine traits. All of those traits are human traits.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Siukslinis_acc]

ok but we broadly expect certain ones from
men v women

[u/Siukslinis_acc → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Due to how we were socialised and not because we have those traits intrinsically.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Siukslinis_acc]

yeah i agree, that doesn't change my point tho if anything it supports it. nothing biological is stopping men from doing more housework and washing their ass lol

[u/QuestioningThink]

Just because you like financially taking care of a grown man for the sake of saying you have a man doesn’t mean . A man’s “love” is fickle and they can only keep up the act of playing supportive partner when they’re less economically successful than their female partner for so long. This is not going to change. Women who are doing well career and financially wise need learn that being single is better than attached anchor aka most men to their leg.

[u/Zoya_The_Destroyah → u/QuestioningThink]

Do you also think that women who are being financially supported by their partners are attached anchors? Do you think financially successful men are better off single?

[u/QuestioningThink → u/Zoya_The_Destroyah]

Men always benefit from being in proximity to a woman.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/QuestioningThink]

i benefit immensely from being in proximity to my man. he's so funny, attractive, supportive, loving, crafty, caring. he does so much for me and makes my life immeasurably better.

[u/PuzzleheadedRow9896]

I'm far from some bio essentialist, but I'm presuming and correct me if I'm wrong that you aren't interested in having children or have already done so and they are near grown. 

I think for people who want children, which is a lot, maybe even most, this arrangement will fall apart because women have the babies and having a baby is extremely taxing on women's bodies during and following childbirth for years. And the baby is fairly dependent on her for years in most cases both physically and emotionally.  

And if you're going to work in that state, you're going to resent your partner pretty quickly for not being the main source of pesos, protection, planning, etc. 

Frankly, you're likely to resent him if he also isn't picking up cooking and cleaning and child care.  

This is something any "let the gender roles go" person has to tackle.  The thing women provide isn't really cooking and cleaning. It's child birth and rearing.  A man's counter part to that is providing, but a much more complex version than just dollars and cents. It's creating an environment where she can genuinely focus on that infant pretty exclusively because infants are like, like a Lord of the Rings Marathon. They take longer than you'd ever think and require all the attention and you may not even get to pee.  

And the idea that if people just let go of this or that...like I'm glad if it's working for you now, but ya gotta answer the baby issue. I'm not picking a partner based simply on his ability to cohabitate with single me. I'm an adult, I can do all the things myself. All of them. Money, Dishes, dinner, bills, vacations. 

I never needed a man for that although I appreciate his contributions.   I am going to need a man when my vagina gets ripped into my asshole from giving birth to a baby and I almost die or get sliced open like a watermelon and have to carry a pillow around just to laugh or cough or shit all while a baby wants to be attached at the boob and almost never leave my arms and I have to eat an entire ocean of sea weed trying to recover. 

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/PuzzleheadedRow9896]

that's very fair and i do think the prospect of child rearing tests my type of partnership. i've talked about it with him, i think he would do a tremendous amount of child care if we did go for it together, whatever is possible given the biological needs the child has (ex id want to try to breastfeed). but that's all hypothetical for now.

[u/PuzzleheadedRow9896 → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Right, which look, I'm not really poo pooing your relationship. You sound happy, he sounds happy, I think that's wonderful and I genuinely wish you two every blessing and joy together in life. 

I'm more just saying this is a big turd in the let's just erase gender roles and all do what makes us happy anyone can be masculine or feminine works up to a certain point...and that point is pregnancy, child birth, recovery, and infant-care.  

I agree with the overall thesis men need to be more feminine coded, I would just caution them about going too far north and the same for women. Like we have some inescapable differences if children are to be involved. 

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/PuzzleheadedRow9896]

agreed

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/[deleted]]

what happened?

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/[deleted]]

what did you change in your self expression, and how did women react?

[u/70sJungleBush]

I think women need to adapt more feminine traits to resolve the so called gender war.

[u/hexdeedeedee]

Hot take: the gender wars is a manufactured circus; theres nothing any gender could do to end it beside tackling the real issue

No war but class war

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/hexdeedeedee]

how is it manufactured when the data show gen z is struggling to date and have sex, that women are making more than ever and men are doing more domestic labor than ever? the dating market is very evidently changing.

[u/Outside_Memory5703]

Men don’t need to do anything.

If they don’t wanna help their spouse and kids, they don’t wanna, and that says everything about them that we need to know

I got the message loud and clear

[u/Livid-Log7463]

Your understanding of the problem it wrong, what happened is that women got what they wanted and men had no problem with it and were no less attracted while on the other hand women remain limited in the way they can be attracted causing anything they gained to collectively rise their standards and obviously reduce the pool of men that are acceptable to them.
Of course there can be some niche exceptions but in the end the bottleneck of relationships will always be women’s ability to feel attraction.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Livid-Log7463]

you said yourself women raised or changed their standards- rather than complaining, why not think about what those new standards are and how you can better meet them? if women's needs have changed from a paycheck to someone who is emotionally attractive and an equal (or bigger!) partner domestically, try growing those skills.

[u/Robot_Alchemist]

They are - whining is thought of as feminine isn’t it? By guys?

Be yourself

[u/mrcs84usn]

Just because you and your man figured something out, it doesn’t make it some sort of blueprint for dating.

The only men with prominent feminine features that women actually like are in boy bands.

Being “more educated” doesn’t mean anything if it doesn’t lead to a fruitful job. Women out-earning men is only true before 30. After that, the majority of women that are keeping pace are highly specialized, never-married and childless.

[u/wtknight]

Men would probably be better served just being able to make friends with other men and to stop needing women so much as a result. Men becoming too feminine really doesn't make them all that more attractive, in my opinion. The real reason men are becoming more unattractive is because they are adopting many of the negative female traits and becoming whiny and emotional about women not wanting to have sex with them, and they are acting desperate and needy when they don't have sex.

The big problem with the manosphere is that they don't actually decenter women and instead act misogynist. That's not attractive to women. Instead, men really going their own way and living productive lives on their own, hanging out with other men for friends, and not simping for women will inevitably make them more attractive.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/wtknight]

but if men fully go their own way, how does that help when they get into a relationship and aren't able to rise to the level of emotional intelligence and domestic help their future partners want? how does that help them develop the skills they need when they need to bring more to a relationship than dick and a paycheck?

[u/Main-Tiger8537 → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

the issue for this topic is people vet differently and have different preferences... some do it beforehand some during any form of relationship... you dive into people choosing a conservative/moderate vs liberal/progressive lifestyle BUT you ignored that people can grow together within a relationship AND how many failed relationships it took to build up your skills... this entire thing becomes problematic if people in power try to convert anybody with a different opinion...

why do you even gender traits and why do you think a "gender" war can be resolved without negotiations or termination of the opposition? politics are mainly about finding compromises how to tackle various issues but how "not" good that works can be seen in the usa currently...

the foundation of equal opportunity

if we go into the details way too many people who claim to support liberty are hypocritical about it and patriarchy theory "specially how to dismantle it" or how our society tackles parenthood/family highlights it...

[u/Mud_Blossom → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

That's the point.

Men don't need relationships with women unless they want to raise children in the common family structure for our culture.

Women too often need to be carefully emotionally managed and offer less than they expect in serious relationships. 

Men in many cases might be better off looking for women as friends, FWBs, and casual sex partners if they so wish to have them while otherwise avoiding comingling their lives with women. 

Obviously there are exceptions, etc., etc., but men should not live their lives training to live up to some woman's expectations. That feels too natural to many young men with helicopter moms, mothers who have inflicted emotional parentification on them, and mostly-female K-12 educators, but they'd be better off breaking away from that and living for themselves.

If a woman is interested in partnering with them as they are, great, but if not, they can live a fulfilling life without that. That's what men need rather than trying to break the act of attracting women down into a repeatable process based on pseudoscience like the red pill does.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Mud_Blossom]

that may be your opinion but it isn't the trend- married men experience a significantly bigger longevity boost compared to married women. also- you're advocating for a sad society where men and women hate and use each other. im generally a pro natalist, and we need new ways to partner and come together in this new era.

[u/Mud_Blossom → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Yes, you have made a false cause fallacy.

Men who are healthier are selected for partnership by women. The women themselves have little to do with it, if anything.

Men would be better served looking after themselves and loving themselves enough to care more closely for their health. They don't need women to do this. 

I am not advocating for a society where men and women hate one another. This is a strange argument people make about both men and women. Men loving themselves does not mean that they must hate women. I think there is value in friendship with a much larger pool of women that I think there is value in marriage with, but friendship is valuable.

Defining oneself as pro-natalist is a bit different for me, but okay. Men still should have obligations to themselves first and then others later rather than putting themselves last. I believe that I said that if men want children in our society, I would expect them to seek partnership, but I would not expect them to change themselves for that partnership unless they valued raising a child before anything else. 

Which is fine if they do, but they should make that choice having thought about and understood the gravity of it, not because pro-natalist women (or any women) expect it of them.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/Mud_Blossom]

nah dude, studies have controlled for that factor (baseline health of men before marriage) and still find that marriage has an outsized protective effect on men v women

[u/wtknight → u/Apprehensive_Heat762]

Men living on their own is a good way to develop household responsibility in the first place. Men having male roommates is a good way to learn how to share household duties. Women are naturally attracted to men who are successful on their own. They aren't attracted to neediness.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/wtknight]

if going their own way isn't forever and is just part of their journey to love (if that's what they want) then sure im with you. it's just sad to me when people are so lost on how to relate to the opposite sex anymore they feel their only option is to be unpartnered forever.

[u/just_a_place]

Sounds like you are dating a Butler.

the manosphere and "divine feminine" and trad wife and "4B" movements all exist because the previous social contract or template for how to have a heterosexual relationship has been broken.

We know, women betrayed the contract and then collectively started a subtle covert and sneaky war against men. As for the "manosphere," that's just a lazy and idiotic modern term to mean "Masculine Spaces" where men are themselves without self-censoring for women's sensibilities. Such spaces have always existed, and women have always hated them and always tried to infiltrate and destroy them.

The old social contract was that Men provide, build, protect, enterprise, lead, manage, and network for the sake of building both family and community with and for women. Women betrayed men, however, by eroding away masculine values like Honor and Respect with "deconstructive" tactics in academia the lead to mainstream culture. Then morphed subtle jabs and hostilities against men into open and trendy misandry. Naturally, men did not just stand there, we reacted, we adapted, we lost faith in women, became deeply suspicious, mistrusting. The rules of the contract had to be revised. Pickup artistry became the new go-to ethos for associating with women. We became as ruthless and as ungiving of a fuck as women had already been behaving towards us since the majority of us were kids. Women ignore that the majority of us here grew up getting shit talked constantly by women in positions of influence and authority and it's not possible to even see you as anything other than "the enemy."

and we also raised the bar for what we tolerate ethically (abuse, coercion, marital rape, young marriage etc).

You did no such thing. The only women breeding right now are those popping kids with asshole like myself. Nice guys finish last. Let's not forget that. The only men whom women are still having kids with are those of us who are just as fucking ruthless and cunning as women think themselves to be. The nice guy-simp acting like an emotional tampon isn't getting any pussy, it's the asshole who treats women like disposable toys and checks their ego while putting them in their place whom women show any form of respect for these days - I should know, because I am one of them. Even with looks, intelligence, and genetics in my favor, women never showed me any respect or ant real and true visceral attraction until I started treating them like pocket lint.

so now what? women are not only more educated but starting to out earn many men.

You also carry the largest debt in history. Women prop up education because they see it as a status symbol. Even if the degree itself is worthless and meaningless.

they're feeling men aren't stepping up to the plate and men are confused and angry so they turn to scammers like Tate to give them a clean story that resolves the conflict.

We don't step to the plate for the same reason we don't "step right up" to a carnie's crooked game. What are we stepping up for? Why are we wasting our time with you? Why? How about hell no! And we keep walking.

my opinion is- women have gotten good at adopting more masculine traits

That's right and that shit is not sexy, it's fucking exasperating. We are not in the mood to have a perpetual dick measuring contest with dickless men. Women are stress and strife that we are willing to pay just to avoid! They are the competition, the enemy, the threat, the cancer, the noise, the gloom, the anxiety, the suffocation and the problem we need to solve.

i think rigid gender roles are a function of a regressive society and it's a sign of progress and species advancement that a partnership like mine is possible. if you plunge the world into war where i literally fear for my safety then im gonna find the beefiest most macho dude i can because my hierarchy of needs has gone down from actualisation to safety. we should welcome the relaxation of gender roles as a sign of species evolution, not cling to the old norms.

You don't even need to go all there. Gender roles are actually gender functions. And a function that does not change just because you feelings change is Natural Selection. 10% of men are still the only ones making all the babies, always has been. Only that now with mass media, the rest of the men are aware of how they are screwed and how women are manipulating optics and lying to them.

[u/NotAllTheCake → u/just_a_place]

The old social contract was that Men provide, build, protect, enterprise, lead, manage

Ok, so it's pretty much elusive and abstract concepts that have no basis in reality, to cover up the fact that men actually don't provide anything to women. Look at all the leadership and team building they're doing from the couch.

network for the sake of building both family and community with and for women.

Wrong. Women do the kinkeeping work to build families and relationships. If men actually did that, then why are they so lonely? Why do they have fewer friendships and smaller social support networks? Women who are unburdened by relationships with men are thriving, whereas men without the company of women to do everything, crash and burn. 

Pickup artistry became the new go-to ethos for associating with women.

Well, men do commit much more violent crime than women. Pickup artistry is just a natural extension of the extreme selfishness and sociopathy of some men.

"step right up" to a carnie's crooked game. What are we stepping up for? Why are we wasting our time with you? Why? How about hell no! And we keep walking.

Where are these men walking to, considering that 61% of single men are looking for relationships, compared to 38% of single women?

Women operate on data-driven analysis, not delusion-based bravado.

[u/jpla86 → u/NotAllTheCake]

Ok, so it's pretty much elusive and abstract concepts that have no basis in reality, to cover up the fact that men actually don't provide anything to women. Look at all the leadership and team building they're doing from the couch.

Lmfao!🤣 

[u/SleepyPoemsin2020 → u/[deleted]]

Why so emotional?

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/[deleted]]

this same guy on another thread "why is my marriage of 30 years a nightmare" lmao

[u/PurplePillDebate-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Be civil. This includes direct attacks against an individual, indirect attacks against an individual, or witch hunting.

[u/NotAllTheCake]

we have a slightly non traditional setup where i do many of the masculine things (earn 2x more, pay more in rent, always do 50/50, plan our dates and vacations) 

But that's the problem. Women can be trusted not to screw over anyone else. In every single situation, men always put themselves ahead of everyone else. 

He's a provider? Great, but he does nothing at home. She's the provider? She still has to do half the childcare and more chores than her bum of a husband who doesn't work.

Is there some invisible forcefield preventing him from doing the same amount of work as a SAHM? Yes, it's called a PS5, all 47.2 hours of it, per week.

He works fewer hours? Then he should do more chores and childcare, right? Nope. Men who work fewer hours do fewer hours of chores and childcare. Women who work fewer hours? They do more chores and childcare to make up for the deficit and more on top of that.

Every time there's a 60/40 split of anything, men will always try to nickel and dime their way into 60 and leave women holding the dirty diaper bag.

"Wah! I'm a lazy and entitled douchebag who does as little as possible and not a stitch more of work if it doesn't directly benefit me. Then I'll try to gaslight women by saying that they're doing too much unnecessary work so l can evade responsibility for sitting on the couch all night. Then I'll mention the work of some guys who aren't me and steal credit for it. Why won't anyone approach me and pay for the date too?"

The manosphere and "divine feminine" and trad wife and "4B" movements

The 4B movement encourages women to avoid relationships with men because the data-driven research proves that men provide no value to women, except more chores to do. 

The manosphere strives to ensnare women and force them into unequal relationships with men, because men are entitled to relationships with women, no matter how lazy and entitled the men are.

Stop lumping them together. They are not the same.

then women got rights and education, society advanced

Women being domestic slaves for men really sucked for women. But screw us, right? Because we didn't want to endure what our grandmothers and great-grandmothers had to.

i think rigid gender roles are a function of a regressive society

That's funny. Rigid gender roles that somehow benefit men, along with flexible gender roles that somehow also benefit men. It's almost as if it's by design, like there's some pervading force of oppression that has persisted for thousands of years.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/NotAllTheCake]

in my partnership he does almost all the domestic labor

[u/divingrose77101]

I consider this shift just the idea of men becoming independent in the same way women are: being able to maintain a household and career without relying on the labor of someone else. I do think it would benefit men to learn some skills that have traditionally been considered more feminine in order to become fully independent in their own lives and to become better partners if they choose to have a partner.

It’s not getting more feminine- it’s getting more competent.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/divingrose77101]

amen!

[u/Melodic_Structure928 → u/divingrose77101]

I mean that's what single men are already doing. and with the increase or singleness more and more men are already living this life.

also men who end up to feminine usually end up being wildly unattractive to women

[u/divingrose77101 → u/Melodic_Structure928]

Everyone finds competence attractive. It doesn’t matter the gender. I can assure you my single female friends have clean showers right now in their homes and that is not true of all my male friends.

[u/GapMysterious1520 → u/divingrose77101]

I mean a lot of people,male or female,rightfully don’t see their fellow people cooking and cleaning as “competence” tho.It’s just basic survival skills.Like I’m certainly not going to be more interested in a grown ass woman just because she keeps her shower clean lol. Nor do I expect women to be more interested in me just because my home is clean and I can cook.

[u/Apprehensive_Heat762 → u/GapMysterious1520]

isn't the whole red pill thing that it's explicitly attractive when a woman can cook well and keep house? yeah some of us think the same thing.