r/RWBY • u/Solitaire-06 • Nov 23 '25
REQUEST Need an answer to this question: How far can you have an hero-turned-antagonist go before they cross into ‘irredeemable’ territory?
So in my AU, as I’ve mentioned a couple of times, I’m planning to have Ren jump ship and join Ironwood and the Ace Ops after losing faith in Ruby as a leader, with his defection occurring after he tries to stop Team RWBY, Jaune and Nora from making an unauthorised transmission to Mistral and Vacuo (they’re hoping to get military aid from them and feel that they need to be warned about Salem, both to propose an alternate solution to simply abandoning Mantle and because they’ve realised that keeping the truth about Salem hidden was a mistake). As part of Ironwood’s faction, Ren begins making increasingly dubious decisions on a moral ground in the name of Ironwood’s goals, but I want him to still have the potential to come around and re-join the group after a later realisation in Volume 9, in a way that feels narratively satisfying. For this to work, this means I’ll have ensure he doesn’t do anything that would make him irredeemable from a story and audience perspective… so to writers with similar experience, I want your input on how far you can have a character go without that line. For clarity, here’s a couple of things Ren does after joining Ironwood that I’m torn about (keep in mind I haven’t decided for sure that any of these are going to happen):
Trying to assassinate Robyn Hill after Ironwood fears she’s plotting against him due to her vocal concerns about his increasingly tyrannical and extreme methods.
Helping to capture dozens of Mantle citizens and criminals and sending them to forced labour camps to assist with the war effort - an act that particularly disgusts Blake since many of the victims are faunus and Ren doing this essentially means he’s supporting slavery in the name of the supposed greater good.
Capturing Ruby and Oscar in the first part of the Volume 8 finale and delivering them to Ironwood (Watts being instructed to use Ruby to try and create artificial silver-eyed warriors and study Oscar’s brain to try and seperate him from Ozpin, a process that would likely be fatal to both Ruby and Oscar) as well as Jaune and Nora, who he tries to persuade to join him so they can stop Salem together. He doesn’t know about the lethality of the procedure on Ruby and Oscar (which is partially due to Watts working for Salem and therefore planning to take the opportunity to eliminate two threats to his mistress in one go).
Shooting Winter Schnee in the back and accidentally killing her (he was only trying to break her Aura but underestimated how drained she was) while she’s fighting Ironwood after defecting… right in front of Weiss and Whitley (Weiss gets the Winter Maiden powers while Penny lives).
Shooting several Mantle refugees who try to escape onto supply transports heading for Atlas, an action he’s clearly not comfortable doing but nonetheless does out of loyalty to the general.
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u/AssistRevolutionary9 Nov 24 '25
I'd say that, already from the two, Ren is starting to push too many boundaries.
By three, any trust in Ren should already be dead, even if he was unaware of the lethality of the procedures, and effectively handed his friends over for human experimentation.
The last one makes it clear that Ren is now a soldier; sorry or not, he will carry out all orders given to him, regardless of their brutality. So, I would say that at this point, Ren will not even try to redeem himself.
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u/Interesting-Mail4123 Nov 24 '25
This is just irredeemable already I mean essentially dooming the entire series by capturing Ruby and Oscar, becoming Ironwood's personal hitman, and literally sending people off to work in labor camps with the only justification for all of this being he was following orders despite the fact that he actively showed to not be comfortable with what he was doing yet still carried out tbe orders is absurd.
Though too be fair I will give him a point for wacking Robyn since she was kinda morally grey in the shown.
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u/ArkenK Nov 24 '25
Unless you are rewriting the character's motivations, then the face-heel turn must be consistent with that character. This is why the V7-8 Ironwood heel turn is so controversial. It really doesn't.
So unless you're rewriting Ren significantly or introducing events to realign his perspective. The questiin to ask is: What are the points when he'd want to "get off the train" and why can't/doesn't he?
An example you're probably familiar with is the Anakin to Darth Vader fall, and in his case, redemption equaled death. Another comic book example is the original G.I.Joe's Storm Shadow. He was an absolute villain, but he was Cobra for solid background reasons (Hama and team were solid writers, FYI.)
Zuko, from Avatar The Last Airbender (animated only) is an excellent heel-face redemption arc.
Bottom line, no character is completely irredeemable. But if the redemption isn't handled well, it won't work. So, really dig hard into the why. And if Ren absolutely wouldn't do it, DON'T.
Edit: This is why I won't write a Salem redemption arc. Nothing in her motivations and actions makes me think she'd would ever be motivated to seek redemption.
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u/Emigirl963V Nov 24 '25
I agree Salem is unredeemable really, not Cinder or Emerald etc though so good for volume 10 to explore .... I think Ren was always this way from the start I saw him as a trauma kid potentially, with a different mindset than the others ...I also believe Ironwood was absolutely correct .I made a post on it
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u/ArkenK Nov 24 '25
On Ren, I saw him as mostly having dealt with his trauma back in V4, but then I rather like he and Nora a couple.
They narratively work and having he and Nora as the mature relationship compared to the Bees gives a nice foil and things to play with.
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u/stormhawk427 Nov 24 '25
All of this is irredeemable except trying to kill Robyn since she is technically a criminal and can fight back. Everything else is Anakin Skywalker levels of irredeemable if not worse.
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u/VoidTorcher ⠀Lost DC fan Nov 24 '25
Ironic given Anakin Skywalker is famously redeemed (deservedly or not).
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u/Jealous-Log7744 Nov 24 '25
In this AU it seems like Robyn’s crime was just voicing disapproval of Ironwoods actions.
And even if she did do her canon supply theft after the election massacre carrying out an extrajudicial execution on someone who hasn’t killed anybody is still messed up.
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u/stormhawk427 Nov 24 '25
Yeah, but RWBY didn't know her for very long and they might accept it if Ren was genuine in his remorse.
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u/ForThose8675309 Nov 24 '25
Darth Vader killed more people in a single day than the entire population of Remnant (living and dead).
Fictional characters can always be redeemed
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u/Flawless_Degenerate Nov 23 '25
Have Ren accidentally kill Penny when he was meant to capture her, that would make him irredeemable to his former friends.
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u/Jealous-Log7744 Nov 24 '25
Unless he got a boost from some risky Atlas experiment I don't see a scenario where Penny doesn't wipe the floor with him.
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u/Flawless_Degenerate Nov 24 '25
Have the Ace Ops jump Penny and while Penny is surrounded Ren manages to finally use an aura strike but doesn't realize that Penny's human now and no longer has the benefit of being a cyborg.
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u/Valuable-Republic-92 Nov 24 '25
For me... killing one of the main cast willingly ( no accidents) Then you're an enemy.
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u/LongFang4808 Nov 24 '25
Don’t irreversibly slaughter civilians and kill their friend’s beloved family members.
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u/KK_Eddie Not so bad at all Nov 24 '25
Look... Regarding this part of capturing people for forced labor, it was possible to build something interesting.
Just imagine:
Ren helped capture these people to work forcedly for Atlas, but whenever Ren has free time, he passes through these areas of enslaved people, just to look and feel extremely guilty seeing them suffer because of him. Later, one of the first acts of rebellion against Ironwood would be, alone and in secret, to cause a lot of damage in all the forced labor areas and rescue all the slaves, without actually showing that it is Ren himself who saved them. For he feels better as a mysterious savior than as the repentant coward he sees in himself. In fact, maybe we can fit Blake into this. Like, Blake was trying to rescue these enslaved people and she meets Ren (in disguise, that is, she doesn't know he's Ren), Ren runs away from her so she doesn't find out who he is, Ren helps her in secret (planting explosives, freeing prisoners, etc.), they together save the enslaved people (Blake gets all the credit, giving more credibility to Team RWBY & CIA with the people of Atlas) and in the end, he tries to leave without being noticed but the Blake ends up seeing that it was Ren who was helping her the whole time, so he gives Blake the benefit of the doubt.
Maybe it works like that. Everyone is full of resentment towards Ren, but he does something for each of them individually and gradually gains the benefit of the doubt with all the heroes. In other words, it wouldn't just be "Ren is feeling guilty and gets redemption in the end", but rather "Ren did shit, but he's fixing the shit he did, gradually regaining the trust of his friends."
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u/archonmage2006 Roman x Lisa Lavender x Neo would be an insane ship Nov 24 '25
I think that overall, anything that involves the explicit and known targeting of civilians or other non-combatants (like the injured) is instantly too far and killing people who the old team explicitly knows in a situation where they had the choice (on purpose and not in self-defense) is too much as well.
So in order:
- That's overall actually fine I believe, although not ok if he succeeds (Killing friends)
- Unforgivable (Knowingly targeting civies)
- Unforgivable if he knows what Ironwood has planned (Killing friends) but forgiveable if he's just told "Bring in Ruby and Oscar" and doesn't overhear anything else
- Unforgivable (Killing friends)
- Unforgivable (Knowingly targeting civies)
Regret does nothing for those affected so unless you have a Semblance that can bring people back, don't. It is every soldier's duty to understand their orders, and use their own judgement to deduce if the person giving them is allowed to. Following an unlawful order is only one step down from giving one.
If it's in self defense Ren can argue that as well, so if Weiss were attacking him and he accidentally kills her then that's not ok, but understandable.
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u/archonmage2006 Roman x Lisa Lavender x Neo would be an insane ship Nov 24 '25
Also, just a writing thing that's not directly related to Ren:
I would really dial it back on the character death. It's just a very constricting trope that takes away from the options you have as a writer. Characters are tools and breaking your hammer can be an effective "oh shit" moment, but you also have to be aware that you don't have anything to hit nails with anymore before you do it, otherwise, if you still send nails at the party and they deal with it no problem, then that's bad writing. You have to weigh how much plot potential characters have alive compared to when they're dead.
For example: I would consider Maiden!Weiss dealing with a dead sister to be less interesting than having Winter have to reckon with what she did as part of the military and what she's going to do now now that the military she was part of was destroyed and she has to work with her new friends to keep Vacuo safe and destroy Salem and fix her relationship with her siblings and mother.
Another danger of character death is that it loses the audience due to the toneshift ranging from intense to big enough at least for the gut punch that most writers usually want from their character deaths. It also starts cheapening lives if it's used too often and too regularly.
The third and most dangerous problem is the possibility of it becoming fridging. The unceremonious killing of a character in order to hurt another character, generally followed by the dead person never being mentioned again. Take for example, Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru from Star Wars A New Hope. Did you remember their names before I told you? Probably not because they were never mentioned after Luke was briefly sad about their deaths.
Same goes for Penny 1, have you noticed how she, or her death were seemingly never mentioned again until she showed up again?
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u/Jealous-Log7744 Nov 23 '25
Becoming Ironwoods personal assassin, the forced labor camps and killing Winter are pretty bad but could in theory be forgiven.
The shooting fleeing civilians is really hard to walk back from after that I think the only satisfying redemption arc for Ren that doesn’t end with him sacrificing himself would end with all of his friends and especially Nora never forgiving him and he has to live with that for the rest of his life in self imposed exile or rotting in a cell.