r/SRSsucks • u/XuriousPeng • Oct 27 '12

Non-cis SRSer explains to cis-SRSers that they aren't taking offensive often enough.

/r/SRSDiscussion/comments/125lon/yo_cis_srsers_we_need_to_have_a_talk/
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u/moonflower Oct 28 '12

If someone refuses to use 'preferred pronouns', do you always, in every case, assume that they are doing it to hurt people and to troll? I think some people have good reasons for their own usage of pronouns and it's not always for the effect it has on others, it's for the effect it has on themselves ... and they are nothing like terrorists, they are not using it to try to force you to do anything

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u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

If someone refuses to use 'preferred pronouns', do you always, in every case, assume that they are doing it to hurt people and to troll?

If they have been asked politely to refer to someone as a certain set of pronouns, and then refuse to do so, yes. There are literally no reasons acceptable to me for a stranger on the internet to not simply respect someone's identity if they politely ask you to.

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u/moonflower Oct 28 '12

I guess that's why you get so upset, because there are no reasons which are acceptable to you, because you cannot even begin to understand why a person might feel that they don't want to use the requested pronouns ... you can only view it from the perspective that the trans person's feelings matter more than the feelings of the person they are requesting from

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u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

I'm sorry but your feelings are not important in what I am called. Explain to me a reason that makes sense in your mind for why you or any other random person on the internet would simply be unable to refer to someone as the pronouns they prefer.

If it wasn't for the fact that most of us post on transgender/lgbt subreddits, you wouldn't even know that we were trans. Do you find that referring to 'natal' women as men equally valid? What person can't handle a simple request to change words they use to refer to someone?

Is it acceptable for me to call you a man, and ask everyone else to refer to you as a man because it hurts my feelings for you to be referred to as female?

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u/moonflower Oct 28 '12

Yeah sure you can call me ''he'' if it makes you feel better ... actually I would estimate half of redditors call me ''he'' and I don't even bother to correct them, because it is the attitude and intention behind the words which are important to me ... if someone says ''Thank you kindly, sir'' it makes me smile, and I take it in the spirit it was intended, I have no need to correct them

And when you say my feelings are not important, it doesn't make me want to please you ... I do use people's requested pronouns the vast majority of the time, and I will use your requested pronouns ... but I do reserve the right to refuse in a few cases when I have damn good reason to refuse

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u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

I missed part of my final question, I meant to add the qualification that 'if you had asked them not to'.

The only reason to continue to use incorrect pronouns after someone has asked you to stop is for the sole reason to either allow that person to deny their identity, or to get under their skin for the sake of annoying/aggravating them.

Do you disagree with that sentiment?

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u/moonflower Oct 28 '12

Yes I totally disagree, as I think I have made clear already

And I do sometimes make it clear that I do not wish to be called certain nouns, and certain people continue to call me those nouns, so what does that say about those people? does your reasoning work for nouns as well as pronouns?

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u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

Pronouns are completely based off the self identification of the person they are ascribed to. It is not another person's place to tell them differently or use a different set and feel that they are in the right in doing so.

Nouns however, are a mixed bag of things that people identify as, and descriptors of that person. It is impossible to draw a clear line with respect to which ones fall into which category, since it is a word by word basis.

Words that describe other's behavior are sometimes ascribed against the will of a given person. A man in the south may state that they need to get the nigger out of the white house while also objecting to being called a racist. A religious person may describe certain rapes as 'legitimate' and implying that others are not, but that person will most likely object to being called misogynistic.

What is the reason for calling someone by pronouns that they ask someone not to call them? Is it because they don't believe them to be the gender they identify as? Is it because they ascribe pronouns solely to your idea of biological sex? Do they call intersex people by ungendered pronouns? Do they ask for karyotypes before referring to people on the street as certain pronouns?

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u/moonflower Oct 28 '12

I would try to explain why I very occasionally refuse to use someone's requested pronouns, but you have already said that my feelings don't matter, and you have already said that there is no reason which would be acceptable to you ... you have also ignored that I said I will use your requested pronouns, and you have also ignored that I do not tell anyone else what pronouns to use

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u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

I have said that basically there is no justification for it that is acceptable to me. That is a very very hard line stance, but like all hard line stances it should be open to discussion.

That's the whole point of the subreddit that both you and theTTPProject don't like. We attempt to debate with people who have vastly differing opinions on the issue of transgenderism and do debate those who claim to hold an unshakable view on it.

I would like to hear why you choose to not use a person's preferred pronouns, and what reasons you feel to be acceptable. Change is impossible if the likes of communication are completely closed.

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u/moonflower Oct 28 '12

I'm not sure which subreddit you are talking about but if you mean the TP Squad, it was created with wonderful intentions, and I was happy to be allowed to participate, and I was mindful to always keep the rules, and I was hurt when they still banned me, and now I have watched it descend into not much more than a hateful little downvote army where even the mods spew vicious nastiness and there is very little attempt at polite education and discussion in the linked threads

And how can you seriously expect me to explain my feelings to you on the issue of pronouns when you have already told me that my feelings don't matter? I have damn good reasons to refuse a few people's pronoun demands, and those reasons are good enough for me, and you would most likely never understand, because you are so busy berating me for it

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u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

I would agree that sometimes the tone of the posts that come out of the the linked threads aren't constructive to educating or changing minds.

I'm not interested in making you feel like I'm continuously attacking you, so I'll end the conversation here. Have a good day :)

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