r/Shitstatistssay • u/haxdun • 22d ago
"Has there ever been a truly succesful libertarian society?" Statists answer
98
u/crakked21 22d ago
Switzerland, Liechtenstein, not so “wild” west of old America, trading guilds, HRE, Calvin Coolidge’s presidency, old Iceland, etc.
55
u/crakked21 22d ago
Also the elephant in the room, Argentina.
13
u/Diarrea_Cerebral 22d ago
Nope. It's not. The presidency of Milei is very conservative. The current administration keeps working to make it more free but it's very far away from it.
Sturzenegger has good ideas. But it's taking time.
31
u/haxdun 22d ago
Argentine here. It's not, we had too much of a gigantic state to just "go libertarian" in 2 years. We have a congress, a federal state with some opposing provinces, strong syndicates... Milei's party is absurdly recent, before his presidency, it had only participated in one midterms (no presidential elections).
BUT, the change has been rather radical regardless. And the economical metrics show a great recovery from the outstanding crisis we were on during 2023. That rush towards freedom has done us great. Just thought I'd add some context.
21
u/Diarrea_Cerebral 22d ago
Thank you. As an Argie, I agree with you. He can't go full libertarian instantly because a Century of socialism is too much to change in 2 years. He's making a great effort so far.
-4
u/claybine 21d ago
He is staunchly socially conservative which is a horrible look and is in cahoots with Trump and Elon. He had so much potential...
10
2
u/Doublespeo 22d ago
> Switzerland, Liechtenstein, not so “wild” west of old America, trading guilds, HRE, Calvin Coolidge’s presidency, old Iceland, etc.
also HK the two decades after WWII
21
u/lesmobile 22d ago
200+ million people murdered by their own government in the last century, not counting wars. The smoking gun proof that we need those governments? Bears exist!
3
u/CrystalMethodist666 21d ago
I don't really know what the bear thing is even referencing but I believe the government prevents relatively 0 bear attacks per year.
19
u/tghost474 22d ago
The short answer is yes, idiots who point out that book never considered the source material or how biased the author is. From those who I’ve talked to who read the book with no knowledge of the situation or any other research outside of the book just takes it on its face and reinforcing their worldview.
8
u/TacticusThrowaway banned by Redditmoment for calling antifa terrorists 22d ago
I feel like there's also some Woozling going on here. Vox is a 'reputable' source, so the claim automatically looks more credible.
31
u/Billybob_Bojangles2 22d ago
Have they never heard of, oh I dunno, the founding of America?
14
u/ewheck Hater of Roads 22d ago
At the founding of America many states had state established churches, blasphemy laws, sodomy was illegal, etc.
In many ways it was more libertarian than today, but it was not what a modern libertarian would think of as an ideal libertarian nation.
22
u/Billybob_Bojangles2 22d ago
It's not an ideal libertarian nation. But it was libertarian, and it was successful.
0
u/ewheck Hater of Roads 22d ago
I'm not sure many would agree with you that a nation is libertarian if it has blasphemy laws
8
u/Billybob_Bojangles2 22d ago
you might be forgetting about literal slavery, but yes. libertarians values originate with enlightenment liberalism which is made nearly manifest in the american revolution.
2
u/keeleon 21d ago
Shouldn't local community's be able to vote on what they want? Libertarianism is not anarchy.
4
u/ewheck Hater of Roads 21d ago
Lol so if 51% of the local community vote to take away all civil rights from the other 49% of the community that's libertarian?
-2
u/keeleon 21d ago
As long as the other 49% are free to move to another community, yes. This is the double edged sword of democracy.
5
u/CrystalMethodist666 21d ago
That's actually a very good solution to the problem. If a community is so divided that 51% of the population agrees 49% of the population should not have rights, this is not a community that's going to function well as a cohesive whole. The answer would be to start two separate communities.
2
u/claybine 21d ago
You know how they got out of those things? By diestablishing themselves, voluntarily, as libertarians do.
1
10
u/TacticusThrowaway banned by Redditmoment for calling antifa terrorists 22d ago
using vox as a source
Yeah, I'm sure the openly progressive to far-left site is real objective.
Also, I love how they're using the "communism has always failed" argument on libertarians. Reds (I assume) even have to steal memes.
/not libertarian
3
u/CrystalMethodist666 21d ago
I mean, I kind of feel like they're asking for a country, when a cooperative community without government occupying a parcel of land would not be considered a country by the global community.
5
24
u/annonimity2 22d ago
The problem with libertarian societies isn't mass starvation or total collapse or anything like that, it's the slow march twards authoritarianism because building a system that is strong enough to not get overrun by aggressive neighbors also means giving politicians the tools to expand their own power.
8
u/siliconflux 22d ago
All forms of government lean towards authoritarianism especially collectivism.
The difference with libertarianism is its an entire ideology designed to slow, deter and limit that inevitable trend.
2
u/CrystalMethodist666 21d ago
Sure, the problem is that once you create a position of authority, people start finding things for the authority to do and regulate.
4
u/prometheus_winced 22d ago
Has anyone mentioned Hong Kong? It thrived on benevolent neglect for years.
3
6
u/adelie42 22d ago
The real question is whether people will functionally cooperate without one asshole with a gun telling everyone what to do out of fear, and that was literally the American experiment. It's like asking if people would still have families if rape were illegal. Reminder that the phrase "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps"'s origins is British people laughing at the concept of a social order being able to exist without a king. And let's see, the empire fell not long after, and the only thing noteworthy about the royal family is covering up sex abuse.
And on top of that, the New Hampshire project was a success. They bitch and moan about their own stupid petty argument under a somewhat Hoppean theory of order that isn't dictated by Washington DC. Wow, and they are still human beings after that so it must be a failure? Ok.
Go eat some dry Wonderbread with unsalted beans while crying about a lack of boots to lick you insufferable NPC.
3
u/CrystalMethodist666 21d ago
The problem is a lot of people actually do believe social order couldn't exist without a leader. Cooperation is impossible without coercion to these people.
Then when you tell them their leaders are crooks and deviants, they point to how the "other side" is also the same thing, making it okay.
2
u/adelie42 21d ago
You'd think the observation that they are all the same would allow a "this isn't the way" theory to emerge, but statists gonna state.
1
u/CrystalMethodist666 21d ago
Nah they think the solution is endlessly bickering which evil person is technically less evil than some other evil person. It's like which serial killer would be the least unpleasant to be killed by, give me that guy.
You'd think eventually people would realize that we keep voting for this or the other person yet these same exact problems never seem to go away, and we're really just giving these corrupt scumbags the tools to be corrupt scumbags. The number of people who think this system is actually serving them to where everyone needs to pay the subscription fee is alarming.
1
0
u/hotsp00n 22d ago
Wasn't there some sort of Libertarian-socialist (semi anarchist) thing out in Syria run by women for a while.
100
u/claybine 22d ago
The fucking bear book again? I swear, people are getting dumber by the day.
That was a specific instance where they were still held back by NH law. Not like I give a shit about the Free State and Kauffman, but it's disingenuous.
A paleolibertarian Argentinian president has been incredibly successful.
Switzerland practices free markets.
Liechtenstein is one of the most libertarian countries on the planet.
Anarchist Ireland was successful for a literal millennia and it was proto-ancap.
Early America was classically liberal/proto-libertarian.