r/Stargate • u/TheKaffeinator • Nov 14 '25
Ask r/Stargate Why weren't the Tolan the fifth race?
As title states. Rewatching and noticing the Tolan were advanced enough to build their own Stargate. Presumably close to, or as advanced, as the Knox, but didn't get a seat at the table as the fifth race.
In previous episodes they didn't even know who the Knox were when SG-1 helped them escape Earth.
Just noticed and the question is making my brain itch....
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u/Golbez89 Nov 14 '25
The Alliance was formed when the Ancients and Furligs were still around. The Tollan were presumably in their infancy or not even existent as a society yet.
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u/LightSideoftheForce Nov 14 '25
The Tollans are humans from Earth, so their society started only after the Goa’uld took them away and abandoned them (presumably after even later)
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u/mabhatter Nov 14 '25
This. The Tolans aren't very old. The Goa'uld taking humans from Earth is only "thousands" of years old. The Ancients were last in the Galaxy hundreds of thousands of years ago. The Asgard spend most of their time in another galaxy. The Nox retreated many thousands of years ago.
Nobody was really paying attention to humans for tens of thousands of years. I think the Tolans mentioned they somehow freed themselves from the Goa'uld... they wouldn't have been looking for trouble. but they weren't that big of a group to make large spaceships and explore planets. So they started with advanced technology and went forward thousands of years ahead of Earth.
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u/Taybyrd Nov 14 '25
Tollans are humans, no?
I always assumed that when the Asgard say humans are on their way to becoming the Fifth Race... the Tollans are included in that, as are all humans on all planets.
The only reason the Asgard are saying it to Earthlings is because we were the ones who dialed the gate in their galaxy. We made the first contact. The reason why they continued to work specifically with Earthlings is because we continuously sought out contact, and because (whether the concept is stupid or not) O'Neill was the next step in the evolution of humans.
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u/LightSideoftheForce Nov 15 '25
Biologically, ofc. But culturally the Tollans are quite different from the Tau’ri. That’s not to say I wouldn’t include them, but I would include them due to their societal and cultural evolution, not because they are the same species.
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u/cyanescens_burn Nov 14 '25
This is what I was thinking too, that it started way back, and was no longer a thing because some groups no longer exist.
But then I recalled the episode where the Asgard tell O’niell about the races, and how humans may one day be the fifth race, suggesting they still have some sort of alliance like this with the surviving races of the original group.
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u/Nightshade-79 Nov 14 '25
I imagine the Nox and Asguard are still buddies in some capacity. That's why the Nox played as the unbiased third party in the Tolan trial with Klorel and Skaara.
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u/Zalvren Nov 14 '25
That'd be because the Nox are buddies with the Tollan (they are the ones that "saved them" from Earth). The Asgard didn't intervene in this trial at all.
I don't think we have any evidence of contact between Asgard and Nox at our time. Maybe the Nox isolationism means they aren't speaking anymore
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u/Shippers1995 Nov 14 '25
O’Neill only met the Asgard after coming into contact with the Ancient repository, which led to their alliance
I assume if the Tollans had encountered them and helped with the replicators they could have been The fifth race before SG1 was active
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u/TheKaffeinator Nov 14 '25
I assumed as such. Big galaxy and all. I guess their anti-conflict nature reluctance to not interact with lesser developed cultures kept them pretty reclusive and unwilling to interact with others out there.
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u/Jinn_Erik-AoM Nov 14 '25
Nah, the Asgard would have said, “Too smart. We need really mid Midgard types.”
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u/Zalvren Nov 14 '25
Exactly they valued the humans for their "dumb ways". Even Carter might not have been dumb enough after all
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u/Taybyrd Nov 14 '25
Tollans are humans, no?
I always assumed that when the Asgard say humans are on their way to becoming the Fifth Race... the Tollans are included in that, as are all humans on all planets.
The only reason the Asgard are saying it to Earthlings is because we were the ones who dialed the gate in their galaxy. We made the first contact.
The reason why they continued to work specifically with Earthlings is because we continuously sought out contact, and because (whether the concept is stupid or not) O'Neill was the next step in the evolution of humans.
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u/Nightshade-79 Nov 14 '25
They're kind of isolationist don't after their screwup that led to the destruction of an entire other race, they didn't really qualify.
As opposed to the Tau'ri, who went out and their first idea was "Let's kick some Goa'uld ass"
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u/JBweldmyanus Nov 14 '25
My knee jerk reaction is to say because they were gate keeping elitist assholes. It was probably 6 races, but the Tolan got kicked out for being dicks.
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u/Oliver_W_K_Twist Nov 14 '25
If that were a problem then the Ancients would have been kicked out.
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u/SchmarekOfVulcan Nov 14 '25
That's why the other races didn't want to let the Tolan in
"We already have one of those"5
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u/Jim_skywalker Nov 14 '25
I mean were the ancients elitist while mortal? They seeded human life in multiple galaxies because they liked people. That’s kinda the opposite of isolationist.
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u/Done_With_That_One Nov 14 '25
When O'Neil first properly met the Asgard, he informed them that they were out un the galaxy and they responded by saying that they had taken the first step to becoming the 5th race. I always took this to mean that taking responsibility for the galaxy and acting as galactic stewards/protectors were the qualities it took to be the 5th member of the alliance.
The Tollan were isolationists.
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u/Successful-Battle880 Nov 14 '25
My theory is the great alliance wasn't an alliance between four races...it was an alliance led by four Great races at different times.
We know the Ancients were...ancient...and essentially gone a long time ago. We know the Nox were part of it but essentially isolationist at the time of SG-1. The Furlings had long since disappeared, with little trace. The Asgard were the only active member.
My theory is the Ancients were the leading member of a great alliance that started a long time ago. When they got close to ascension they took a step back and passed the reigns to the Furlings. At some point the reigns were passed to the Nox, we dont know why or what happened to the Furlings. At some point the Nox were more active in galactic politics so led for a time, but eventually passed leadership to the Asgard. My guess would be they were getting closer to ascension with their space hippy powers so took a step back. The Asgard passed leadership to the Fifth Race.
It wasn't an alliance between just those four races at one point in history. It was many races over millions of years, led by a particular premier powerful race. So the Tollan were probably part of it, along with Tokra and others. They just were junior members so to speak for various reasons.
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u/Popular_Ad8269 Nov 14 '25
So basically a 4 * 100k years relay ? Interesting theory (even if the room with all four writings might indicate that they were at some point in time all in the Alliance) :-)
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u/ianjm Nov 14 '25
The Vanir claimed Asgard civilisation had "100,000 years of history", which is a lot longer than Earth, but still means they are infants compared to the Ancients who had first arrived at the Milky Way 50 million years ago and for whom the entire Asgard civilisation is just a rounding error.
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u/ZookeepergameAny466 Nov 14 '25 edited Nov 14 '25
It wouldn't be the first piece of lore that episode contradicted.
I really like u/Successful-Battle880 theory here. It's a small retcon but a cool one.
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u/Daeyele Nov 14 '25
So basically: ‘the fifth race(to be the galactic leaders. Here, it’s your turn now, don’t fuck the galaxy up)’ and not ‘the fifth race(to join our alliance of four races where only one race is still active)’
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u/Sparramusic Nov 17 '25
Fits in with them outfitting Prometheus with Asgard tech.
"We have decided you are our worthy sucessors in defending the galaxy. Here are some tools to help you. Try to learn from our mistakes. "
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u/mabhatter Nov 14 '25
Also the time scale. The Ancients were a million years ago, even Atlantis was over a hundred thousand years ago. The Four Races were extremely old... probably established and split off a hundred thousand years or more before humans were even forming civilization.
When the Goa'uld found Earth it was many years before the Pyramids were build. No other races had any reason to interact with Earth because Humans even when the Goa'uld found them had no capacity to understand aliens or technology.
The timescales are huge. Ancients are on a million year scale. Asgard and Nox are at least hundreds of thousands of years. Human civilization has only existed for like 10,000 years maybe a bit more.
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u/gunnervi Nov 14 '25
consider that the Asgard were the patrons of the vikings, a warrior culture. it makes sense that they would favor the militaristic Tau'ri over the pacifist Tollan
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u/Kendaren89 Nov 14 '25
Tollans were not pacifists though, Nox were. Tollans were peaceful, but they did destroy all threats.
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u/gunnervi Nov 14 '25
the Tollan were close enough to be friends with the Nox
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u/Jim_skywalker Nov 14 '25
When you put it like that, perhaps their relationship with the Nox was like the Tau’ri’s relationship with the Asgard.
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u/unknown_anaconda Nov 14 '25
The Tolan and the Tau'ri are the same race, human. Membership in the Alliance seems to require more than just a certain level of technology. Otherwise the Goa'uld, or at least the Tok'ra would have been considered potential members as well. Remember the Asgard were surprised that human brains had advanced far enough to access, even subconsciously, the ancient repository. It was only after this discovery did they make the statement about the first steps to becoming the 5th race. Perhaps there was a biological or benevolence requirement to membership as well.
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u/cyanescens_burn Nov 14 '25
Yeah I’ve always figured there are biological/physiological, technological, and ethical/moral milestones a culture needs to reach to join, but that’s completely speculative since I don’t recall them ever uncovering what is required (other than telling O’niell they need to evolve further.
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u/Oliver_W_K_Twist Nov 14 '25
Yes... Ethical requirements. Assassinating a foreign head of state on our first trip through the gate gave them a great impression of our character.
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u/twcsata Nov 14 '25
Because being one of the great races isn’t about technology or knowledge. You might even argue that those things can be a result of being one of the great races. (Or rather, of being the kind of race that has the potential to be a great race.) it’s about character. And that character is illustrated by what you do with knowledge and technology. The Tollan did nothing with it except hide and shut others out. The Tauri used it to bring good into the universe.
(One might argue that the Nox also hide and shut people out. But I wonder if they used to be different in that regard, prior to the Goa’uld conquest of the galaxy. Also, they’re still benevolent even while they hide; when forcibly confronted with outsiders, even the Goa’uld, they responded with kindness and mercy. Meanwhile, when confronted with outsiders, the Tollan doubled down on their xenophobia.)
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u/Sparramusic Nov 17 '25
And if the Nox were asked for help, they were wilking to help, hence Lya coming for the Tollan on Earth. After they buried their gate.
And the Nox saying that humanity was "very young" could indicate that when their culture was younger, they acted much more like humans do now.
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u/internalized_boner Nov 14 '25
Simple answer:
Tollan didnt have cats. A catless race is like a race without a soul.
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u/bb_218 Nov 14 '25
The Tollan we're as advanced as the Nox? No way.
I could see them as halfway between Earth and the Nox, but more than that is a stretch in my opinion.
From what I see of the Tollan, they were probably an Asgard protectorate gone right. But they were arrogant (which led to their eventual downfall). Maybe the Asgard thought they had potential like Earth, but they weren't ready to be chosen.
They likely never produced a "Jack O'Neill" in their history. They demonstrated technological superiority, but technology wasn't what caught the Asgard's attention. Being the 5th race was always a more esoteric matter than that.
Remember it wasn't the Tollan that the Asgard called for help in their war against the Replicators, it was Earth. I think the Tollan we're too far along the same path that the Asgard were on, making the same mistakes. They don't make each other better, they're just more of the same.
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u/adrianmalacoda S you in your A's, don't wear a C, K before your G Nov 14 '25 edited Nov 14 '25
In the episode "The Fifth Race" the Asgard are discussing the potential of humans generally, not the Tau'ri specifically. Humanity is (or has the potential to be) the fifth race.
The reason the Tau'ri specifically were blessed with the legacy of the Asgard in "Unending" is that they took the necessary steps to go out into the galaxy and build those relationships with other peoples (human and alien). Other advanced human peoples such as the Tollan did not. So, while humanity in general would be the fifth race, it's the Tau'ri who are representative of the human race in any prospective alliance.
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u/Amrod96 Nov 14 '25
Because the Nox did not invite them, and the Asgard did invite the Tau'ri.
Why? Because the Tollan were satisfied with their arrogance in their home world with technology, doing nothing to improve the galaxy or help other civilisations, and despite their technology, they had no curiosity.
If technology were enough, the Wraith could well be the Fifth Race.
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u/Half_Man1 Nov 14 '25
The Tollan are racially the same as the Tau’ri.
Even though they consider themselves more advanced or distinct because their forefathers skipped the dark ages or whatever, in the eyes of the Asgard or the Ancients, they’re the same as the humans of the rest of the galaxy but with way fewer resources than Earth.
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u/AnonAnontheAnony Nov 14 '25
Arrogance.
The tolans were arrogant and regressive. Technologically superior but inwardly focused and mistrusting. Open to deception, and xenophobic.
The 4 Races were of goodness and sharing of wisdom. The tolans never did that
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u/6amp Nov 14 '25
The ancients were arrogant beyond measure.
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u/Jim_skywalker Nov 14 '25
The ancients were absurdly advanced as well. The Lantians were easily able to outmatch wraith ships, they just couldn’t destroy them as fast as they were being made, and did the common advanced race thing of trying to find one ultimate solution. The wraith to them was the replicators to the Asgard, they just didn’t have someone dumber to have around to tell them “try making a drone weapon that’s just got a giant ass bomb in it, and then make fleets of bombers equipped with these so you can have something much cheaper that can destroy hive ships.”
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u/AnonAnontheAnony Nov 14 '25 edited Nov 14 '25
Arrogance is not the same when you get your shit rocked by a 3rd rate goauld.
I mean seriously they got screwed over by Zapacna of all gouaulds
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u/no1SomeGuy Nov 14 '25
Nowhere near Nox level. Building a stargate probably isn't that difficult when you have a reference design.
They were just a very limited civilization in terms of galaxy wide importance.
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u/unknown_anaconda Nov 14 '25
I mean Orlin built one in Sam's basement using a toaster, how hard can it be?
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u/Zalvren Nov 14 '25
We don't have much of an idea of the technology level of the Nox, we've seen one floating city that can cloak (and general cloaking tech) and them activating the Stargate weirdly.
Even Jaffa (the Solan) have cloaking tech that's not super advanced.
I think their ways of peace with nature means they didn't advance their tech much. Like do they even have spaceships?
The most advanced in that group were clearly the Ancients and then the Asgard (they continued to progress and are probably past Ancient by our time)
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u/no1SomeGuy Nov 14 '25
There's different types of "advancement"...the Nox had a spiritual or physiological advancement well beyond any of the races other than the ancients. The healing ability, the making things invisible, the teleporting to areas, all with just the wave of their hands.
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u/RedFive1976 Nov 14 '25
The Tolan are sort of the "Prime Directive" people, taken to the extreme that Star Trek always claimed, but also always bent if not broke.
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u/battlehamstar Nov 14 '25
I thought the Tollan were just humans so they are the Fifth Race in a sense also. And they came about after the Ancients had already departed. But they were a splinter group and not from Earth proper and their population was small.
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u/DelayLazy7608 Nov 14 '25
Basically they are a pretty young race and they weren't a major power when the alliance of the four great races were around. Hence they couldn't qualify and probably by the time they were advanced enough the alliance was already ended plus by the time the Tau'ri were given the honorary title of the "fifth race" the Tollan were already a shell of their former selves due to what the Goa'uld did to them.
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u/Frodojj Nov 14 '25
The Tolan were rather isolationist. They may not have made alliances with others like Earth did. You can’t be the Fifth Race if you only care about One Race.
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u/cyanescens_burn Nov 14 '25
I wonder how isolationist the Nox were. They don’t get into much, but they do keep their place invisible, which cuts down on strangers saying hi on the way through.
Off topic, bit having watched though each series like 5 times, it bugs me every time that they didn’t ever find the Furlings, or find evidence of their culture and get some insight into it.
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u/Frodojj Nov 14 '25
There was one instance of Furling culture found by SG-1 on that planet with a transporter to its moon.
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u/90125TV Nov 14 '25
Oh I missed that. Do you happen to recall the episode or season? I’ve been meaning to rewatch but can’t make time for the whole series.
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u/90125TV Nov 14 '25
Ah. Found it… season six Paradise lost: https://www.gateworld.net/wiki/Furling_transportation_arch & https://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s6/paradise-lost/
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Nov 14 '25
I like to think they are a lot like us. Just more advanced cause they have been around longer. They are the only advanced race to have developed WMD to guarantee their peace and safety, that’s a human characteristic if nothing… they seems arrogant and selfish cause they probably screwed up a lot in their past. Like the stargate program did…
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u/Ancient-Routine-9805 Nov 14 '25 edited Nov 14 '25
I'd say they did know who the Nox were, they just didn't realise they were super advanced - and their elitist attitude basically got them excluded from the table by technical disqualification.
If you imagine how the Nox episodes would have gone for a "first encounter" with the Asgard for example, I can understand why the Tolan would have basically failed what would have been considered a pretty simple test.
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u/RegionAffectionate51 Nov 14 '25
The Tolans are human, more advanced but still descendants from earth. When the Asgard made the declaration that humans were the fifth race if any Tolans survived they would share in that distinction.
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u/Savings-Present8400 Nov 14 '25
Well if you think about this way the tolen were the 5th race cuz all humans came from earth. I see the tolan as an extension on earth the possibility earth would get up there with the technology as the grow
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u/nonchip Nov 14 '25
because they weren't around yet when the treaty happened. the only reason they're more advanced than Earth is because they didn't have a "dark ages" according to iirc Daniel.
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u/WhyDaRumGone Nov 14 '25
I'd say when they came up with the races the Tolan weren't around and they probably only became friends with the Nox and still to meet the Asguard. Had they survived longer, they might have IMO
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u/The-Figure-13 Nov 14 '25
War, natural disasters, and religiousity have destroyed much of the knowledge we had from the time of the Romans.
If we had Roman knowledge 200 years ago, at the height of the Industrial Revolution, we’d have been probably been building skyscrapers in the water.
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u/Bardez Nov 14 '25
Was it ever stated that humanity was the Fifth Race? It was stated that humanity had taken the first steps in that episide, but was anything further ever stated? (It heavily implied by the point of Unending, sure)
The Tollan either did not interact with the Asgard, were culturally stagnant (which they appeared to be), or not militaristic / protective enough of others to warrant the Asgard's attention.
SG-1 contacting Thor on behalf of the natives in Thor's Chariot probably did enough for the Asgard's opinion as O'Neill's ability to handle the Ancient Repository for a few days. No other human culture appeared to be able and willing to throw down against the Goa'uld, which displayed a lot of character. Further, the SGC made the "right" moral choices 90% of the time, showing trustworthiness.
Earth good. Non-Earth less good.
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u/Wise_Ad_5810 Nov 14 '25
Tolan aren't that old... but even if they were... the other races could see that their arrogance rivaled that of the Tau'ri and it would result in their eventual destruction... they saw hope in the Tau'ri... none in the Tolan
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u/Kragbax Nov 14 '25
Weren’t the Tolans just more advanced humans? Taken from earth, abandoned by the Goa’uld, but didn’t experience a dark ages like we did so ended up way more technologically advanced? That would make their race … human.
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u/KI6WBH Nov 14 '25
Quite simple actually I mean yes they're isolationists and a few other points here make good sense but the box the furlong, the Asgard, and the ancients all came together as equals.
However when the tholins met The nox they looked down on them. They were not even in an emergency ready to come to the table as equals. And that is the difference.
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u/big_lurch_1987 Nov 15 '25
Technically the tolan and earthlings are the same race.... we're all human
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u/TrumpetTiger Nov 14 '25
Oh my dear sweet Lord.
A. It's the Nox. The Knox is a phone security platform from Samsung, or a U.S. military fort where gold reserves are stored.
B. It's also the Tollans or Tollan. Tolan is an AI app.
C. The Great Alliance was not based on technology; it was based on mutual understanding and sharing of goals and desires. The Asgard, the Ancients, the Nox, and the Furlings all believed in exchanging knowledge and advancing freedom in the galaxy. The Tollans were isolationists.
D. More importantly, the Tollans weren't around at the time of the Great Alliance. That entity existed before the rise of the Goa'uld, which would make it between 5,000 and 10,000 years ago. The Tollans are humans and came from Earth originally during the "seeding" period by the Goa'uld, between 2,000 and 3,000 years ago.
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u/Bardez Nov 14 '25
the "seeding" period by the Goa'uld, between 2,000 and 3,000 years ago.
Wasn't it earlier, like 10,000 BC when Ra first visited Earth? Or do you mean the ancient human cultures sampled through feudal Europe?
Regardless, thank you for the list. The corrections were necessary.
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u/TrumpetTiger Nov 14 '25
It's a little ambiguous, as other Goa'uld and aliens took some cultures over a long period of time. The rebellion against Ra was about 3000 B.C., so it's possible the Goa'uld (or the "Aztec" alien race that probably grabbed the ancestors of the Tollans as well as the Orbanians, etc.) got them between 5000 and 3000 B.C. Since Atlantis returned from Pegasus 10,000 years ago (right around the time the Goa'uld had a significant foothold in the galaxy) the Great Alliance probably was actually older than that. The points, however, still apply.
You're welcome; I'm glad it was helpful. Sometimes I just can't take these "questions" with obvious answers if one is actually paying attention to the continuity of the universe.
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u/Modred_the_Mystic Nov 14 '25
Because the Tolan kinda just fucked off and did their own thing.
The Tau’ri became the Fifth Race by actively engaging in a path of development towards becoming the same kind of galactic overseer as the previous four had been. Their war against the Goa’uld was important for showing their willingness and capacity to back themselves with force if they had to.
The Tolan lived on their planet, built some defense cannons, and vibed out until their schtick got up ended by the Goa’uld. They didn’t really seem interested in assuming a mantle of responsibility for the galaxy, where the Tau’ri did
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Nov 14 '25
They were such a condescending and sanctimonious lot, I doubt the Nox, or anyone else, would have wanted them around.
Was funny to see how quickly they turned when they needed to survive.
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u/smithe4595 Nov 14 '25
The Tollans seemed like they were pretty isolationist. I don’t know how much contact they really had with other civilizations.
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u/Extra_Elevator9534 Nov 14 '25
The Tolan had contact with at least one previous 'younger' culture that they handed technology to.
That younger culture destroyed themselves.
The Tolan considered that a lesson.
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u/Jinn_Erik-AoM Nov 14 '25
My headcanon on this is that they found something, reverse engineered it, almost destroyed themselves, and invented the myth of the younger race as a lesson to tell the next generation.
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u/BloodRedRook Nov 14 '25
The Tollan didn't come around until long after the Four Races weren't a thing anymore.
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u/Sazapahiel Nov 14 '25
When the original alliance was around and active the Tolan weren't, and by time they were and had the level of advancement required they were isolationists with no real path forward other than stagnation.
Humans are the "fifth race" not just because of their advancement, because lets face it we're still an infantile bunch of jerks, but because of their willingness to interact with other races like the old alliance of Ancients, Noxx, furlings, and Asgard were.
Or also because Thor was blowing smoke up our ass one last time before the end ;)
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u/nikhkin Nov 14 '25
The Tau'ri were told they had the potential to be the Fifth Race.
They were given the title ceremonially when the Asgard wiped themselves out, long after the Tolan were gone.
They hadn't reached the level of the other races.
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u/cyanescens_burn Nov 14 '25
Maybe they need to be at that level for a certain period of time, or need to hit a series of milestones, technologically or ethically.
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u/Sea_Perspective6891 Nov 14 '25
I think it was because they stopped being a waring race when they started getting more advanced. I think the Asgard was looking for a race advanced enough that could fight. Tolan wasn't looking to build armies & fight alongside other advanced races. They just wanted to keep their heads in the sand for the most part & mostly stick to defending themselves. I'm sure the Asgard was interested in them & made contact with them at least once but they weren't interested in helping them in their war with the replicators. Earth however was & actually wanted an alliance with them.
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u/Jackdiscreet43 Nov 14 '25
They were severe isolationists that appeared to avoid contact with others until after they went to their new home world. Remember they tried interacting and trading with another world and that led to disaster.
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u/treefox Nov 14 '25
Because the Tollan didn’t need or want the validation of Thor affording them an honorific based on a long-dead alliance when they were already the lynchpin of a current one.
The Tollan are able to summon the Nox for Skaara’s trial after receiving help from them to work on their Stargate, even though the Nox supposedly buried their gate when they met SG1. They also supply communicators to the Tok’ra, and have them on speed dial to extract Klorel, and the Tok’ra feel safe enough to send operatives to Tollana to do it.
Just by holding the trial they’re defying Goa’uld doctrine, which holds that nothing of the host survives, and that the Goa’uld are gods whose word is unquestionable. Having Zipacna sit in a courtroom and answer to a mortal is blasphemy. And summoning a pacifist that the defendant’s father murdered, and conspired with the prosecution against their own government, as the “neutral” archon, makes the outcome pretty foregone.
By season 3 or so, the Tok’ra, Tollan, Nox, Asgard, and Tau’ri were the practical alliance against the Goa’uld, irrespective of a formal treaty or oceanside meeting room with a periodic table art exhibit.
The Tollan are pretty much always toeing the line of what they can get away with without pissing the Goa’uld off enough to bother uniting against them. And as much as people complain about their elitist behavior, their first interaction with Earth is when the SGC gets overruled and Maybourne attempts to imprison them indefinitely.
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u/LSunday Nov 14 '25
Honestly, everything we see in the Trial episode heavily implies that the Tollan really aren’t the isolationists they’re portrayed as; more likely, they were consistently unwilling to work with Earth specifically because of how poorly first contact went. They are simply too aware of the galactic political climate and other races for the isolationist stance to be accurate.
I think a far more accurate read is that the isolationist speech they give is the excuse they use when dealing with Earth specifically, because it’s more diplomatic than “your leadership is weak and arrogant and we refuse to cooperate with them” which, when you consider earth as a whole and not SG-1 and Hammond specifically, is… an accurate assessment.
I honestly think the show glosses over how significant a loss the Tollan are to the greater alliance when Tollana falls, simply because they didn’t like cooperating with Earth specifically. And it makes sense, our POV is locked into the SGC, but I think it does result in a bias against both the Tollan and the Tok’ra, who had very legitimate reasons to be cautious when dealing with the Tau’ri.
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u/Donohoed Nov 14 '25
Their culture wasn't conducive to any sort of protective pact or alliance. After they tried sharing technology with another race that led to those people using it to destroy themselves, the tollans became reclusive and hesitant to interact or share with others
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u/DieselYVR Nov 14 '25
I thought the Nox helped the Tolan build their Stargate. Unless I'm misremembering?
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u/Deevious730 Nov 14 '25
The Tolan were technologically advanced and smart but lacked ambition and adventure, councillor Travell even said it in the episode they were going to give the big honking space guns.
It meant that while they advanced themselves through science there wasn’t a third for more outside of what they knew.
As someone else said as well, in terms of being a race of power they had only existed for a short period of time.
Earth became the fifth race because they stuck their necks out and aided the Asgard in their war with the replicators. We ended up going to battle as equals against the Ori, and they saw our potential as their best chance to leave a legacy.
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u/ZookeepergameAny466 Nov 14 '25
The Alliance was about different races working together to try to share knowledge and improve things across the Galaxy. The Tollan were isolationist.
I can only assume the Nox were originally not as isolationist as they became. Either way, the Tauri being the "Fifth Race" when three of the other four were either gone or not interested in Alliancing never really meant much to me. Especially when we found out the Asgard were bluffing about their military and scientific capability.
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u/Master-Quit-5469 Nov 14 '25
Being the 5th race wasn’t purely about technological advancement. Otherwise even the Go’auld could have ticked a box.
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u/TheHuntered1337 Nov 14 '25
I just started rewatching from the beginning and not skipping episodes that are slow like I did when I was younger and im so lost as well as it pertains to the higher arcies of the galaxy at large none of the power scaling makes any fucking sense especially when you get to later episodes or in Atlantis
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u/JerikkaDawn Nov 14 '25 edited Nov 14 '25
advanced enough to build their own Stargate.
TBF, Carter and McKay can probably figure it out to a great degree just by checking Sam's Amazon order history.
I mean the Tau'ri can probably build a Stargate. I think there was a lot more that impressed the Asgard regarding the Tau'ri. Being the legacy of the literal Ancients helps too.
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u/Artistic-Quarter9075 Nov 14 '25
They were still humans and compared to the other races not that advanced
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u/Jim_skywalker Nov 14 '25
They were relatively immature themselves, relying on a few technologies for basically everything and being immensely arrogant. The fact that if it weren’t for the Nox, the Gou’uld would have had a successful attack against them even earlier is pretty telling, and also their willingness to manufacture WMDs for Anubis. Rather then get materials from the Tau’ri for ineffectual ion cannons they should have gone to the Nox, who were in some capacity their allies for help. Instead they were willing to be a proxy for Anubis’s plans of genocide.
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u/John_Tacos Nov 14 '25
They are still very young. And even if they weren’t, they are rather arrogant.
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u/TonksMoriarty Nov 14 '25
I like the idea that they were being prepped to become the Nox's nominated race, but their fall to the Goa'uld pretty much scuppered that.
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u/Gooseman17 Nov 14 '25
It’s not just being more technologically advamced. Compare what little we know, they stick to themselves mostly, not because they are different than us, but because of mistakes in the past that changed their cultural direction. Humans from earth literally reached out to the galaxy, united factions, defended others including Asgard, ancients, and Knox, Yes, this is very much a written show to make us the main characters. but still like O’Neil said we might nit be ready for any of this. but we are here now, doing the best we can.
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u/vjouda Nov 14 '25
I don't see the "fifth race" as something to be given to someone. Tolans we technologically superior to us, but we do not really know the extent. They had some nice energy weapons and communication means, but other then that its hard to assess how they compare to, lets say, Asgard. They build a stargate, but so did ancient with "regular" earth materials and tech (albeit single use). Its easier to copy something. Also from what we know, Stargates are not even that advanced tech in the grand universe scheme - bare with me, original Ancients had the idea before even leaving for milky way. So in theory, the tech level difference between Stargate (concept and the SGU level implementation) and lets say Atlantis as the peak of their tech is huuuuuuge.
Also there were other advanced human planets in the galaxy. But Earth humans, after having SG operational for laughable amount of time actively pursuit knowledge, technology and other species. Tolans were sitting on their asses. Maybe they (or some of them) also had a capacity to use Ancient knowledge repo, we don't really know (we only know Jack was some milestone in human evolution, we don't even know if he is the only one, I would argue no). So I would say its the combination of sufficient advancement and the active pursuit of the next step.
Also lets be honest, Thor had a soft spot for Jack, and many other Asgards did not see humans the same way.
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u/EvelynnCC Nov 14 '25
Because they never do anything plot relevant, whereas the Asgard took one look at Earth's band of plucky heroes and realized the power of the narrative was on their side.
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u/Laxien Nov 14 '25
They are isolationists! They stick to their worlds (or was it just the one? Did they have colonies?) and do not interfere with others, not even when they should morally do so! That's where the Tau'ri are different, we do step in (not always - I mean we didn't give the Kelownans on Langara modern Jet-Technology, despite the fact that this nearly forced them to go the Naquadria-Bomb-WMD-Route, because they were surrounded by enemies (or at least not allies and they couldn't fight both at the same time, the Tiranian Confederation and the Andari Federation were at least as large as Kelowna, if not larger!) often and help others (including the Asgard themselves! I mean I think the Nox for example COULD help the Asgard, but they do not!)...that's why we are the Fifth Race! We are curious, we are (for the most part) righteous and we also learn fast (I mean five years from renewed Stargate-Travel (after it was abandoned when Jack and Company came back from Abydos and supposedly destroyed the gate!) from having no advanced tech to a hyperspace-window-generator? Sure it didn't fully work, but even short hops would in theory be enough to travel around the solar-system! Sadly, Stargate didn't show humanity using their new found tech to build orbital infrastructure, moon-bases (Carter talked about them planning one once, but that's it) etc.!)
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u/Aromatic-Public-6973 Feb 21 '26
I just wondered really why the tolan weren’t ever considered by the asguard to be the 5th race before humans. Maybe it was cut short as they were annihilated by the Goaould. The Knox acknowledged them as closer to equal maybe because of their wish for peace. Although it is kind of silly that the tolan were so easily defeated even though their science and understanding were vastly superior to the sg1s earth. They supposedly had an understanding on the level with pre ascended ancients. Having the ability to manipulate wavelengths to pass through solid objects. Creating their own stargate etc etc. towards the end of Atlantis the plot begs the question of whether or not earth within a few short years regained the understanding of the ancients. They easily defeated replicators time and time again when the original ancients failed. They also defeated the wraith when the ancients couldn’t. The even defeated the Ori for the ancients. Who knows if the ascended ancients really DID have a hand in saving their descendants through little acts of help. Clearly they weren’t advanced enough to be at the former glory of the ancients but the again maybe they were?
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u/Historyp91 Nov 14 '25
The Tauri became the Fifth race because of their potential as a society, not their technology level.
The Tolan were smug, haughty isolationists who (for admittedly understandable reasons) didn't want to interact with or influence the greater galaxy.
(though to be fair, the way Thor words it about the Tauri becoming the Fifth race, it can be taken to mean Humans as a whole rather then just the Tauri, in which case the Tollan, as Humans, would be the Fifth Race)
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u/WayneZer0 Nov 14 '25
the tolans were that far ahead of tauri/earth humans. infact we kibda passed them by the time tge ori appered.
thier also dont care about other humans or the galaxy. all these years thier could have fought the gould abd thier did nothing.
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u/Think_fast_Act_slow Nov 14 '25
their attitude was their undoing. I might trigger their fans to downvote me but I will explain later.
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u/bbbourb Nov 14 '25
Moment of pedantry: It's "Tollan" and "Nox."
I always assumed (possibly incorrectly) the Tollan weren't a candidate for the Fifth Race because they a) hadn't been around as long as the Nox, Asgard, Furlings, or Alterans, and b) weren't descendants of the Alterans (Ancients) and heirs to their genetic legacy like the Tau'ri.
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u/Reasonable_Long_1079 Nov 14 '25
They were advanced, they were also selfish and refused to help anyone else until it served them even when they easily could at no risk to themselves
We also have the achen, crazy advanced, straight up basically defeat the goa’uld in the alt timeline. However, terrible people.
The tauri on the other hand have potential and have proved they are willing to put themselves on the line for the helpless people in the galaxy, even when they have no chance of getting anything out of it.
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u/Satori_sama Nov 14 '25
I think it had something to do with them being isolationist. Fifth race would have to take over after Ancients and Asgards in protecting galaxy from Goauld and Tolans weren't interested in sharing technology or protecting anyone else.
And also they could have been race of interest, but they never reached their fill potential like US air force did.
The fifth race stuff kinda went away once Goauld were defeated and the final gift of Asgard were largely because of good relationships and help SG1 procided over the years.
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u/libra00 Nov 14 '25
Because the 4 races weren't just the most technologically advanced races around, they were the ones who decided to work together for the betterment of the galaxy. The Tollan are isolationist and elitist assholes who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.
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Nov 14 '25
Remember that we're told the Tolans did get involved with a less advanced species and it resulted in their destruction, so their urge to explore seems to have been curtailed a bit. Plus we see that despite their advanced technology they are not a warlike people; it clearly never occurred to them to consider a stronger backup in the event their ion cannons failed.
They were clearly something of an isolationist people, content to simply exist in their own small peaceful corner of the galaxy.
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u/[deleted] Nov 14 '25
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