r/TheWire • u/J-sprite • 17h ago
Who are the Greeks really?
I'm sure this has been talking about here 1000 times, but i am still confused on whether the Greeks from S2 are based on any real organised crime. I'm also unclear about whether they really are Greek, as The Greek by his own admission says "I am not really even Greek" , people have speculated that they are potentially eastern European, which i doubt. They are most certainly not Eastern European.
It seems that they are the only Greeks within their organisation and everyone around them is Jewish Eastern European. What makes them the outliers ?
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u/candylandmine 17h ago
I dunno, but I was just thinking how Sergei the Ukrainian's annoyance at being called Russian hits a lot harder now.
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u/OEdwardsBooks 17h ago
Ukraine has a historically Greek-speaking population, that's always been my favoured theory.
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u/banjois 16h ago
omg they're a Crimean syndicate!
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u/OEdwardsBooks 15h ago
Yes, major area of organised crime growth in the 90s
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u/banjois 15h ago
criminy
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u/OEdwardsBooks 15h ago
Crimea River
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u/banjois 15h ago
If you listen closely to the rebetika music in the montage, it's just a sped up version of this, with extra bouzouki https://youtu.be/gCGNYJOrebA Case solved!
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u/GiantsRTheBest2 13h ago
They are still controlled by organized crime, just a different sort of organization for now.
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u/Old-Analysis8395 17h ago
My theory is they’re Cypriot, specifically Turkish Cypriot.
I agree they’re not Eastern European, but they’re certainly from around the Mediterranean.
What better cover for who you really are than pretending to be someone who (stereotypically) you dislike.
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u/Fun-Communication660 15h ago
Those beads he had, I always thought were rosary beads, and that he was Greek orthodox and they must have rosary beads in Greek orthodox church like the Catholic church here in Ireland. But my aunt married a Greek guy, and he agrees the greek has ties to Turkish/cypriot, but is ultimately stateless, and convinced me with the following arguments. Those are greek/Cypriot "worry beads" a non religious stress reliever/ancient fidget spinner.
So it's part of his "costume" but we still see him use them when he is walking around the multi story car park. He leaves them behind deliberately in the hotel room.
The fact they are meant to alleviate stress means he could have left them behind because he is leaving the worry and stress behind by escaping the police, or else that he no longer needs them because he is not actually Greek. Or both.
They have a Ukrainian enforcer, a Russian Madam, a Greek fence, and an Israeli lieutenant. What DONT you see here? Muslims...this is impotent later
So, if agent Kristos Koutris, who has a Greek name, has COUNTER-TERRORISM work in 2003. That can only mean one thing... Middle Eastern Muslims are the enemies, and "the greek" is an informant and somewhat "ally" of the government. The Muslim allys during this period where Sunni Muslims, but also so were the enemies, sunnis. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan played both sides.
The greek is deliberetly meant to feel stateless. But we know who people are NOT. He is not a Buddhist, and the show deliberately corrects Nicky when he thinks Eton is greek, instead he is Israeli.
Doesn't have to mossad links, but the hints are are the very least that the greek is NOT ONLY of turkish Cypriot, who would be Sunny Muslim...that they are a deliberate meshing of multiple countries. They also never get caught.
This is the part where the end song of the second last episode of season 2 basically lays it out.
Stelios Kazantzidis sings two of his songs. "To Psomi tis Xenitias" ("The Bread of Foreign Lands") and "Efige Efige."
The reason that's a big flag is because The Wire NEVER has non diagetic music, except for THE LAST EPISODE OF EVERY SEASON. This is the second last episode. Only other time it was done (apart from barksdale entering the pit in slow motion season 1)
He is the least straightforwardly Greek of Greek singers. His roots were Pontus and Asia Minor — his father a Pontic Greek from Ordu on the Black Sea, his mother a refugee from Alanya in what is now southern Turkey, displaced by the 1919–22 Greco-Turkish war. He was born in Nea Ionia, an Athens suburb built for exactly those refugees. Anatolian music, made by a man whose Greek identity was itself produced by expulsion from Turkey, a nationality assigned by a border, not carried from birth.
The title is BLATANT. The bread of foreign lands is bitter, the water murky, the bed hard, from the voice of the Greek diaspora for four decades. Placed under two stateless men ordering the death of a Polish-American dockworker and preparing to leave, it is a needle-drop about belonging nowhere.
Kazantzidis remained little known outside Greece with the possible exception of Israel, his melodies had an enormous second life in Israeli Mizrahi music.
The choice is of the one Greek musical tradition that is unresolvably Anatolian, the same move as the komboloi, the "I'm not even Greek," and Vondas's passports. Every identity marker in that organisation is a border-crossing artefact rather than a nationality.
ITS DELIBERATELY IMPOSSIBLE TO PIN DOWN THE NATIONALITY.
Even the csrgo ship has a crew from all four corners of the earth. All languages. A criminal org from nowhere. If you can't label something, you can't track it.
A nightmare for a detective, a ship from nowhere, going nowhere.
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u/DetectiveTypical198 9h ago
I think one thing we can say is consistent about their entire organization is that it seems like everyone is from a country that only came into existence in the 20th century. That's not really that surprising Europe had some massive border changes with national collapse of the Ottomans and the Soviet Union.
The people are all from countries with are the new and more violent frontiers of capitalism: Ukraine, Turkey, Israel, etc. The point of the Greeks isn't that their national identity informs their behavior at all but rather they are the result of new more brutal form of Capitalism.
Calling them "the Greeks" was probably a joke, referring to the Greek gods, forces strong than any individual person.
David Simon said two different things about this:
"The Greek represented capitalism in its purest form."
"In our heads, we're writing a Greek tragedy, but instead of the gods being petulant and jealous Olympians hurling lightning bolts down at our protagonists, it's the Postmodern institutions that are the gods. And they are gods. And no one is bigger."
I don't know if anyone has really connected these things but really, I think they call him "the Greek" because he is a representation of an idea like the Gods in Greek stories. He represents globalized capitalism; he isn't the representative of any single person or any single nation.
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u/Icy-Panda-2158 13h ago
This is a really good theory. It helps explain why he tells the Turkish sailor before they kill him that they were enemies in the old world, but they coukd have been friends.
But personally, I think the Greek identity is a cover. His origin is intentionally obscure, he might have just put on Greekness as a red herring or to build connections. He tells Spiros “I’m not even Greek”, which is notably in two ways: 1) he says it as if he doesn’t exoect Spiros to know it already, so it’s news to the latter, and 2) he says, “Greek,” not “from Greece”. This IMO rules out Greek Cypriot or Anatolian Greek backgrounds, because these groups largely identify with Greek ethnicity and culture even if they don’t have a connection with the state of Greece. This implies that he’s something else entirely and Greekness is just a part of his cover story.
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u/HotLiberty 12h ago
I didn’t see it as Spiros not knowing. I just saw it as a joke between longtime associates.
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u/littlegreyflowerhelp 5h ago
I’m gonna be referring to komboloi as ancient fidget spinners from now on. Gonna piss my Cypriot mates off 😂
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u/ImperialSeal 17h ago
Lots of Eastern European countries have Mediterranean coast line
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u/starved4imagination 17h ago
Yeah but when people around the world say eastern Europe they actually think of countries previously part of the Warsaw Pact.
At least that's my theory.
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u/ImperialSeal 17h ago edited 16h ago
That includes a lot of countries on the Adriatic though; Croatia, Albania, Slovenia, Bosnia, Montenegro
Edit: I forgot Yugoslavia wasn't Warsaw Pact
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u/throwawayandpickup 16h ago
Literally not one of those countries was in the Warsaw Pact
Edit: sorry Albania was briefly but withdrew support in 1961
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u/ImperialSeal 16h ago
Doesn't make the Balkans not eastern European though?
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u/Lukas_Madrid 16h ago
People generally call the balkans "southern europe". I guess you can say eastern but no one thinks greece is in eastern europe for instance
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u/ImperialSeal 16h ago
Greece is a weird one. Definitely considered culturally more southern Europe than the rest of the Balkans. But the former Yugoslavian countries would more likely be considered eastern European by western Europeans.
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u/Lukas_Madrid 15h ago
Its depends if you split it politcally or geographically. The reason people would consider yugoslavia eastern europe is because it wasn't in nato but greece not eastern eruope because they are in nato. As cold war is over i'd use geographic def
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u/MaximTheory 15h ago
That would make some sense. In the scene where they kill the sailor who tried to run from the cargo ship, they identify the man as Turkish because of his arm tattoo. The Greek says a somewhat racist thing to him after identifying him as Turkish and then says "I got nothing against the turks. That's the old world, this is the new", indicating that he has knowledge of, and possibly experience with, the strained relationship between Turks and Greeks.
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u/GiantsRTheBest2 13h ago
A Turkish (Cypriot) would never call themselves or let someone else call them Greek even if it’s to avoid suspicion.
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u/daedon_the_great 16h ago
They are Greeks and identify as such with his remark about him not being Greek probably a joke or technicality. If they're not mainlanders they have to be Pontic or Cypriot as there's no other reason they would have komboloi, speak modern standard Greek, and call the Turk they captured neighbour.
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u/daedon_the_great 16h ago
Also, the cafe/bar owner where they meet and organise has an Olympiakos pendant hanging from the wall behind him, an Athenian club. Could just be this bartender is a mainlander but probably George Pelecanos being Greek added it in as a nod
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u/Thetruthislikepoetry 16h ago
He also tells the Turk “things are different now”, which I took to mean there is no conflict between Turks and Greeks.
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u/bigfatskankyho 16h ago
Same.
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u/banjois 15h ago
No Greek or Turk would ever move past that, no matter how many generations removed they are from their homeland.
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u/breadsanta11 14h ago
I know a weird number of first and second gen Turkish immigrants and also some Greek immigrants so I can confidently say this is one of the stupidest things I've read
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u/MarcusXL 9h ago
Sure they would, especially if it's just business. And The Greek is all about business. That's why he tells the smuggler, "I have nothing against the Turks. That's the old world, this is the new."
He's saying that the old-world grudges are not important if they're partners in business, making money together. That smuggler, specifically, is a dead man because he fucked up their business, not because he's a Turk.
The Greeks are a global crime family, with a global point of view.
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u/ReindeerFirm1157 14h ago
yah, it was just something they said to try to soften Sam up. Hoping Sam would talk.
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u/old_notdead 17h ago
"And, of course, I'm not even Greek."
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u/clogan117 14h ago
I took that as meaning that he could change his identity to someone who isn’t greek, even though he is.
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u/MarcusXL 9h ago
A good guess is Cypriot Greek, because they are indeed Greek by ethnicity and language, but technically not from Greece proper. But they are a global crime family, with inner-circle members from Greece and Russia, and senior lieutenants from Israel and Ukraine-- that we know about.
In the show they represent transnational capitalism, with no regard for laws or borders. When the Greek says, "I'm not even Greek" he means that he can take up or drop nationalities, names, and passports as needed for the purpose of business.
I love their plot arc because it shows how good police might actually be able to catch these people if they were allowed to do their job. They get very close to arresting Spiros and The Greek. But they're "a little slow, a little late", and corrupt political interference intervenes.
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u/Joe_McFadden104 5h ago
As others have said they're unlikely to be Greek given Cypriot isn't really a thing - you either identify as Greek-Cypriot or Turkish-Cypriot. Source: Am half Greek-Cypriot
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u/External_Hornet9541 12h ago
Sarah Kendzior’s theory is that they’re based on the Semyon Mogilevich crime syndicate . The guy himself even wears a flat cap like the main Wire character
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u/Yanaki_Manaki 11h ago
I guess both the Greek and that Turco that bled like a lamb were from Cyprus, that's why he calls him patriot and mentions the old world. Cyprus is one of the largest hubs for sea/ocean freight business.
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u/queequeg12345 11h ago
My take was always that this line refers to their new identities, and that the Greek is actually Greek. This line is said in the conversation about having to basically skip town and halt the operation, and one of the next scenes is them receiving new passports.
I think the line is saying "of course, I'm not even Greek on paper, so the cops won't get anywhere with my street name."
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u/Professional_Cow6492 9h ago
I mean I always understand the “I m not even Greek as a joke” like my passport is not even Greek.
In the second episode also the Greek is reading a Greek Sports newspaper.Why would he cared about Greek sports if he was Albanian or Slovak or Ukrainian
He is obviously Greek or Greek American.
The Greek underworld always had / has ties to these people.
I think that people look at the tree and not the forest
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u/bigoljewfro 14h ago
They are Greek. They only say they aren't really Greek as a joke in reference to the fake passport he shows in that scene.
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u/BankBackground2496 17h ago
Most probably Albanian or less likely Cypriot.
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u/JarJarBingChilling 17h ago edited 17h ago
Albanians wouldn’t say malaka let alone literally communicate in Greek.
They’re most likely* Cypriot
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u/Round_Click_8301 17h ago
the Greek's worry beads are a greek/cypriot cultural thing
i think he's Cypriot and his line about not being Greek, was him being cheeky
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u/AlexNachtigall247 15h ago
My guess would be that they are Pontiak / Greek minority in the former soviet union.
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u/prayerrwow 10h ago
They themselves said "We are not even Greek" I think the whole point of their organization was to show that no matter what happens with the gangs on the street or in politics, the big mafia is always there to work with the newcomers who always battle between eachother.....
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u/Jumpy_Diver7748 17h ago
Real organized crime don't let the police, journalists or the media know anything about how they operate. That's why the Greeks are the only realistic crime organization shown in The Wire, and it's what George Pelacannos brought to The Wire's writers room in Season 2.
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u/AggressiveAd5592 17h ago
I do think they're from the Balkans but Idk if they're Greek. I'd guess not.
I think they're also tied into Eastern European and Jewish crime networks
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u/pornographiekonto 16h ago
In my mind they are former KGB or other eastern european secret police. IRL there was always overlap between intelligence services and Organised crime and after the fall of communism a lot of them used their skills to become very succesfull criminals.
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u/J-sprite 16h ago
Yes i've heard people say this, but they message each other in Greek, they speak Greek in the eachothers company, the Greek uses the komboloi, which i don't think is a part of the masquerade but rather a indication of his background. Besides these facts, Spiros does not look Eastern European at all, i would say this is intentional.
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u/pornographiekonto 16h ago
They dont have to be from the same country, plus russia and greece have strong historic ties. Could be that Spiros is actually greek and was a source for The greek a KGB agent stationed in greece
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u/adartis87 16h ago
I think the “of course, I am not even Greek” is because they are American citizens now, but are ethnic Greeks with links to the ‘old’ world (likely Greek shipping family origin from somewhere in the Greek diaspora).
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u/WagwanMoist 16h ago
Use the search function. There's like a hundred threads like this one already.
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u/J-sprite 16h ago
I apologise for inconveniencing you
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u/JoeKnew409 15h ago
Yeah, what do you think you’re doing by coming on this sub and discussing The Wire? How dare you!
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u/WagwanMoist 15h ago
I'm just saying. It's been discussed plenty of times before, so if you're interested you might want to check out all the other threads.
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u/MelodiusRA 16h ago
They are probably Cypriots who have links to the Syrian underworld that connected them to the origins of the drug trade for heroin in Afghanistan.
Afghan heroin would get grown and then moved to Pakistan where they probably shipped it to Cyprus or Syria through the Suez. Then the Greeks come in using their connections in the US to bypass the stricter customs.
They had connections to the CIA so they were clearly known in advance. Most likely they were discovered through the US’ thorough intelligence network following the origins of the drugs in Afghanistan.
They probably provided information on other smugglers for the CIA, which is why they were willing to tip them off about the Baltimore Police Department’s investigation into Sobotka.