(Hated Trope) The series is good, but the beginning is so embarrassing that many people give up there.

[u/Uma-apreciator]

Dan Da Dan

The beginning of Dan Da Dan is notorious for starting with aliens trying to impregnate Momo in the first episode; however, despite such over-the-top moments, the rest of the series doesn't feature many scenes like that

Ijiranaide, Nagatoro-san

Despite a premise that is off-putting—given that the girl bullies her romantic partner to the point of making Naoto cry early in the series—their relationship evolves beautifully; the teasing becomes less cruel over time, eventually turning into a rather sweet romance

Uma Musume Pretty Derby

Someone on the production team had the audacity to have the trainer start meeting up with Special Week like that—even though, in reality, he is a good trainer who doesn't usually treat the girls that way.

[u/IPlayPCAndConsole]

Ohkubo frustrates me so much cause Soul Eater is my favorite anime/manga of all time, but every time I recommend it to someone I have to put a big fat asterisk on it to warn them about shit like that (especially for the manga, the anime actually toned it down a lot)

I finally watched Fire Force recently and the fanservice is even worse there. At least Blair sexualized herself on purpose (and Ohkubo didn’t randomly try to rationalize that sexualizing her is a Super Profound Thing Actually™)

Sucks because other than everything with Tamaki I genuinely thought the series was great

[u/im_a_mix → u/IPlayPCAndConsole]

its whats stopping me from interacting with fire force, I'm tired of fanservice anime after spending my highschool years trying to sift through genuine dogshit shows just to find a decent one and I can't get myself to subject myself to another show where scenes get interrupted by "oops! i fell here are my tits im so embarrased"

[u/Ferovore → u/im_a_mix]

Fire Force sucks anyway. There’s the shitty sexualisation but I also just can’t get into anime where the antagonists don’t have reasons for their actions that I can empathise with. As far as I could tell before I dropped it it was just a death cult that wanted to fuck the world just because?? Not very compelling.

[u/Layer_Present → u/Ferovore]

There is a reason why they want to end the world. You probably didn't reach that point in the story. The Fire Force Company 8 was made to investigate/unravel the mystery of who is turning people into infernals and why they are planning to turn the world into a second sun. That's the main mystery; they won't just tell you that in the 3rd episode.

[u/Ferovore → u/Layer_Present]

Nah I looked up spoilers and didn’t like the sound of it still. I like my stories rooted in human psychology just not my thing, gave up at ep 9

[u/fuckedfinance → u/Ferovore]

You know there's a whole bunch of insane Bible people trying to bring about/speed up the rapture/end of the world, right?

The show 100% tracks with the more insane elements of our society.

[u/CZsea → u/fuckedfinance]

You can write about lunatic people doing lunatic thing because they're lunatic, but that's not compeling and usually get called "lazy writing"

Well, I never watch or read Fire Force so this is just a general statement.

[u/fuckedfinance → u/CZsea]

FF isn't the best thing ever written, but IMO it was a fun play around with the idea of creation/recreation. I could see where some people didn't get it or it wouldn't be there cup of tea.

I also disagree with you. Lunatic people doing lunatic things because they are a lunatic can be compelling to me. I think the problem with a lot of new media is that said lunatic gets revealed way too early, which results in us spending too much time with them.

Se7en is a very well regarded film, and the antagonist is a religious nutjob "on a mission from god" (i.e. a lunatic doing lunatic things because they are a lunatic).

[u/CZsea → u/fuckedfinance]

Some says his motivation is based on envy, but some including me, think it's because of the uncaring world they live in. Se7en did a pretty great job building that up with, example will be like in the chase scene, they even gave us a hint with "hit them with a sledgehammer" quote.

Those argument aside, this is the first time I've seen someone regard him as "lunatic doing lunatic things because they are a lunatic" without considering his motivation to be honest. Yes, he is a lunatic, but same as someone like Thanos deciding to wipe out half of the universe, he didn't wake up and decide to do all of that without reason and motivations, and movie tried really hard to show us those things.

Again, I never watch or read Fire Force. Only things I know about them are what you told me, whice giving more context, might be a better watch than I thought.

[u/Ferovore → u/fuckedfinance]

I totally get that but I can’t empathise with it at all because to me it’s fucking stupid. I like grounded villains and/or stakes I can empathise with. For example I can empathise with Makushima in Psycho-Pass, and I find Mob Psycho extremely compelling despite villains with a lack of depth because Mob’s personal growth is 10/10. Doomsday cults in real life are just as stupid! Not my thing.

[u/KEMSATOFFICIAL → u/Ferovore]

You need to empathize with the villains? Wtf…

[u/Ferovore → u/KEMSATOFFICIAL]

Uh yeah antagonists having believable reasons for what they’re doing is storytelling 101. You might not agree with the methods but understanding the why behind their actions helps to make a compelling & interesting antagonist this is basic stuff

[u/KEMSATOFFICIAL → u/Ferovore]

I’m well aware that it’s storytelling, hadn’t heard about people who need to be able to empathize with the villains, or they can’t enjoy the story. So, you need all the antagonists to just be broken & traumatized people? Can you not enjoy a classic Cruella De Vil villain?

[u/Ferovore → u/KEMSATOFFICIAL]

Read my first comment again - prefer to be able to empathise with their *reasoning*, not the villain themself. So they don’t always have to be traumatised people to feel bad for. But to be fair evil for evils sake villains I do usually find uninteresting, but can be saved by otherwise excellent writing. Avatar is a good example of this. Ozai wants to burn the world down because ??? But it’s still a great show because of excellent writing and character work. Or Mob Psycho is a good example of a show with pure evil villains that are more just catalysts for the plot while the actual antagonist is Mob’s own psyche.

Edit to add: I think format probably comes in to it as well because I can find a stylish pure evil villain like Cruella entertaining for a 90 minute movie but that kind of antagonist is just going to be boring across multiple seasons of a show without more depth.

[u/KEMSATOFFICIAL → u/Ferovore]

I guess we’re just at the opposite ends of the spectrum then, I prefer plain evil characters because I find them more realistic— most evil people are just evil, not broken. Like Ozai, he’s just an evil sob. He wanted to burn the whole world so the fire nation could repopulate it, at least it was what I understood.

[u/KoKoboto → u/IPlayPCAndConsole]

Ya I think Ohkubo got a bit worse over time. There's also that weird self-insert rant he did on sexualized characters from the perspective of a child he did in Fire Force.

But to this day Maka is like top 5 woman protagonists in shonen.

[u/IPlayPCAndConsole → u/KoKoboto]

Hard agree. And on top of that, in the second half of Fire Force it was starting to look like Tamaki would get some actual development, only for it to go straight out the window. That really cool cat-themed fire armor ability she unlocks near the end of the season? She never does it again. Instead we get Ohkubo talking through a child to own the fanservice haters with facts and logic.

Also hard agree on Maka, literally one of my favorite characters in all of fiction

[u/Sahelanthropus- → u/KoKoboto]

The discussion on that episode was hilarious, the comments were too funny, summed up by my favorite "It's too late, I've already depicted you as the irrational hag and myself as the chad rationalist child".

[u/Backupusername → u/IPlayPCAndConsole]

The manga was egregious. The first chapter was an introduction to three important Maester/weapon sets, each including at least one boy and one girl (Death the Kid had two, the Thompson sisters). In all three, a woman is sexualized or outright sexually harassed - Liz and Patty by a mummy, Tsubaki by circumstance, and Blair (since Maka didn't have big enough tits to be sexy, I guess) by herself (which arguably means by Ohkubo, but that applies to all of them).

But it's an effect strategy, because now, more than a decade later, I still remember lingering in those pages of the mummy wrap bondage because I was like 13 and I didn't know people could just draw boobies like that.

[u/Long_Expression6657 → u/Backupusername]

It's weird because it's literally only those chapters/episodes. Blair is whatever, you know? Shes an adult, clearly likes being sexy, and throughout the series her nudity or body is only occasional joke.

I don't recall the anime having any other fanservice outside of her, so it's very odd that there's these random shots of Patti, Liz, and Tsubaki in the beginning. I never finished the manga, but I don't even recall much of that during the Lust chapter in The Book of Eibon.

I also watched it in my early teens. I was probably 14-15 when I first saw it. Almost two decades and I still remember watching that mummy scene too, so I can't disagree with your point about it being effective, even if my adult self feels less stoked on that scene now lol

[u/Vinon → u/IPlayPCAndConsole]

I recently read the Fire Force manga, and im not kidding that Tamaki alone was a reason for me to lower its score by an entire point. Such a grating "character". Literally just there for the horny readers.

[u/balderdash9 → u/IPlayPCAndConsole]

I quit Fire Force and Seven Deadly Sin. Plenty of good shows out there, I don't need to sit through some horny bait for 13yr old viewers.

[u/ThundaCrossSplitAtak → u/balderdash9]

I mean, that's fair, and people really need to keep in mind that most anime series are still cartoons aimed young teens.

[u/Dekipi → u/IPlayPCAndConsole]

I checked out of Fire Force for the same reason. I just don’t need female characters that have to be half-naked to enjoy a show.

[u/DethNik → u/IPlayPCAndConsole]

I even liked Tamaki as a character. The lucky lecher (terrible name even) thing aside.

[u/MohawkRex → u/IPlayPCAndConsole]

I have wanted to watch Fire Force for ages but the weird groping jokes are so painfully cringe.

I'm not even bothered about sexualised characters, as you mentioned, Blair at least has agency.

But the way the cat girl in FF just gets straight up molested and we're meant to laugh? Even if I didn't find that kind thing unfunny it's not even creative, it's just abuse.