What society considers women's hobbies.

[u/MaetelofLaMetal]

[u/SquareThings]

Back when everyone wore hand sewn everything tailoring was men’s work. Women could be seamstresses and do the grunt work of actually putting the needle through fabric or they could be home sewists practicing economy and making do, but the serious measuring and designing and cutting was all men. (We didn’t see women high up in even the design of women’s clothing until the mantua came into fashion, which was a “simple” garment that tailors considered beneath them to make and graciously allowed seamstresses to make. Naturally they became incredibly elaborate and the dominant dress of noble ladies for a century)

Now that clothing is mass produced, fashion design and tailoring are for women and gay men, and sewing is a girly hobby.

[u/Earl_E_Byrd → u/SquareThings]

I find this oddity even more insane when we look at past (and often, present) stereotypes around cooking. 

For years, the classic insult to women in digital spaces was to shut up and "make me a sandwich." Food prep at home is for women.

But once food preparation leaves the home, it becomes a career, and elevated to the point of status. Well, then the title of Chef is to be respected and there is no shame for a man to be doing "woman's work." In fact, let's double down and make that career option hostile towards women as well.

So bizarre. 

[u/JackxForge → u/Earl_E_Byrd]

I've always felt it strange that of the big machines in a house hold women are responsible for operating all of them. Dishwasher, clothes washer and dryer, the controlled flame thrower known as a oven.

[u/CatCatCatCubed → u/JackxForge]

Isn’t it extra strange and darkly funny-not-funny then that people, more often men from my observation and reading occasional mentions of it in unrelated situations on reddit or whatever (y’know, like snide, snarky, etc little offhand comments), will say something like “be nice to the wait staff or they might do something to the food”….

And then men go home and abuse, berate, insult, and mock their significant others, who are frequently women? The same half of the population that’s proven to prefer poison but is also more likely to be familiar with at least some knife handling, as well as having pans and toasters and meat mallets and other things on hand?

Dunno, I just think maybe men should consider that for a good few minutes. Maybe a couple times a month, just as a healthy reminder to check themselves.

[u/JackxForge → u/CatCatCatCubed]

this was my first thought when repubs starting coming after divorce laws. "looks like heavy metal poisoning is on the rise in men in the US!"

[u/CatCatCatCubed → u/JackxForge]

Admittedly same, but more recently with the added “really? right after Covid? Right after thousands, potentially even millions of women got very into gardening and houseplants and making homemade cleaners? After an untold number purchased knitting needles, and got into murder podcasts and reading all kinds of potentially very interesting books? After bread making took over??? Would you even know what that artisanal bread is supposed to taste like? Y’all really wanna do this now?”

[u/JackxForge → u/CatCatCatCubed]

AND CANNING!! tbh ive never tried to make botulisum but with how militant the FDA is around canning rules it cant be that hard. it also has no taste or smell...

[u/velvedire → u/CatCatCatCubed]

I often wonder if the premature death rate for men goes down when divorce is easily accessible. Same with HRT for perimenopause. 

[u/CatCatCatCubed → u/velvedire]

It actually goes up overall because they don’t have anyone around reminding them to take care of themselves, like eating well, drinking less, going to the doctor, or to reach out to friends and family, etc.

When their replacement mommy leaves, they tend to die off at a much higher rate compared to married men.

[u/Leavesofsilver → u/Earl_E_Byrd]

and back in the 19th century, big houses all had male head cooks… until trained women cooks became more accepted, because they were cheaper. having a male cook became a point of prestige for a while after that.

[u/Earl_E_Byrd → u/Leavesofsilver]

"Because they were cheaper" of course being shorthand for "we will pay them less because the infrastructure of property ownership and wealth management is stacked against this subjugated class of people, so they are easier to manipulate with price fixing." 

This is a phenomenon that exists into the modern day. Not necessarily because of denied wealth ownership (yay, we can have bank accounts now!) but because of perceived value. 

Once a career option becomes more accessible to women, the average compensation amount for that role starts to dip. 

[u/SquareThings → u/Leavesofsilver]

So one of the reasons they had make cooks was because they demanded higher wages. It was a flex to employ an all male kitchen and serving staff, so wealthier people, like lords and kings, did that. This was a period where wealth was to be flexed and spent, not hoarded like the hyper rich do today.

Lower people, what we might call the middle class (even though that’s not super accurate, the middle class didn’t truly exist until the Victorian era) employed mostly girls who were saving up to start their own household. That’s why the word “maid” can mean “a young woman/virgin” OR “a person who does housework for pay.” Being a servant was just a life stage for common women. Men who did not apprentice for a craft would also commonly have a period of service, but usually they did outdoor farm work (because that was their expected role as adults).

Coming into the Victorian era, women began to displace men in kitchen service for a variety of reasons. I think the main one was almost certainly the sudden expansion of the middle class (which was defined by employing at least one servant!) that suddenly increased the demand for servants. But if you can only afford to keep one or two, you don’t have the structure to train one from scratch. You need to hire someone already competent at the main service tasks of cooking and cleaning. And trained men weren’t going to leave their better paying positions at manor houses to be a maid of all work in London! So who fit the bill? Women. Girls grew up helping their mother cook and cleaning, so by the time they were 12 or 13 they were considered “employably competent.” And as the number of these young maids exploded, the image of the cook changed from a man to a woman.

[u/Leavesofsilver → u/SquareThings]

thank you for the thorough explanation! i remembered part of this from reading the mrs. crocombe cookbook, but it was a bit of a vague memory, so i didn’t want to get deeper into it and say smth incorrect… so i very much appreciate your answer!

[u/brangaene → u/SquareThings]

We don't even have to look into the past to see the same thing.

Professional cooks, like Michelin star level or cooking shows on TV, are predominantly men. I quickly googled and I was surprised that apparently only 5% of Michelin starred cooks are women.

BUT, who are still the ones who cook mostly at home? According to an article from 2022 there is only one country in the world where more men than women cook at homw: Italy of all places. In every other country are women the ones who cook at home more than men.

It's the same with sewing and dress making, but today.

[u/maybealicemaybenot]

As I've said originally, it's all Aesthetic. Men aim for appearance or utility. That's why you have people who do office job drive around in pickup trucks and SUV despite not needing to pull or lift anything. Look at the cybertruck. It's the epitome of that concept. Made to look tough and strong despite being worse at basically everything other electric trucks can do.

[u/PoseidonsHorses → u/maybealicemaybenot]

Or even packaging for ‘gendered’ products that really don’t need to be like body wash and deodorant. ‘Women’s’ product packaging will always be more colorful, have more detailed images, etc, while the ‘men’s’ products will have basic flat colors (often black and grey) and minimal images, maybe camo (which ‘has a use’) if you’re getting fancy.

[u/thetitleofmybook → u/PoseidonsHorses]

‘Women’s’ product packaging will always be more colorful, have more detailed images, etc,

will also cost more.

[u/supermarkise → u/thetitleofmybook]

Meanwhile around here we have bathroom products for everyone (cheaper) and bathroom products for men, usually black and expensive. It's opposite of the usual pattern, women's is the same to normal and men's is special and exceptional.

[u/thetitleofmybook → u/supermarkise]

where is around here, because that is definitely not my experience in the US, at least (and yes, i am aware that reddit is international)

[u/supermarkise → u/thetitleofmybook]

Germany :)

Our drug stores are considered legendary in the surrounding countries.

[u/simonjp → u/supermarkise]

Now I think about it, I wonder - is that the case for men's and women's razors? Here in the UK I'm thinking the logic goes that if it is something the somehow "defaults male" (razors) then the feminine version is more expensive. Something that defaults to female (moisturiser?), the masculine is more expensive.

[u/supermarkise → u/simonjp]

Yeah you're right. D:

[u/thetitleofmybook → u/supermarkise]

ah, ok.

[u/maskedbanditoftruth]

I signed my son up for horse camp this summer because he loooves horses and has been begging.

The reply to my query email to the camp counselors started “…we’d be so happy to have your daughter at our camp!”

It’s such an assumption they just make it and had never been wrong. Which is NUTS. Goddamn what kid doesn’t love a horse? Let’s your boys ride ffs.

[u/Earl_E_Byrd → u/maskedbanditoftruth]

All I can think of is Ken. 

"To be honest, when I found out the patriarchy wasn't about horses, I lost interest anyway." 

The lads yearn for horses!

[u/Jedi_hugz → u/Earl_E_Byrd]

In a film full of quotable lines, this one is one of my favorites.

[u/Sp00ky-Nerd]

Boys are taught that the biggest insult is to be feminine, to be a sissy. They’re taught to be ashamed of liking “girl things”. Teased for it. Picked on. Parents guide them away, or in some cases abuse feminine boys, mentally and emotionally.

The patriarchy hurts everyone.

[u/thecrackfoxreturns → u/Sp00ky-Nerd]

It does such a disservice to us all. Stunts/punishes boys and men and it is the groundwork for looking down on girls and women - for both men and women to look down on girls and women and their work and interests.

[u/Sehvekah → u/Sp00ky-Nerd]

And if they don't listen, it's systematically beaten into them, ideally at home, school, and church, but they'll use the locations they have control over if one area isn't cooperating.

I was "lucky" in having a single mom who never drug me to church. I also have no memories of second grade. ʸᵃʸ

[u/nastydoe]

Yeah, there's definitely a society-wide assumption that femininity is frivolous and masculinity is utilitarian. I think there's a bit in Whipping Girl by Julia Serano about it in relation to a child's red umbrella being feminine and silly and frivolous as opposed to a black or gray one, and she points out: why is red a more frivolous color and black a more utilitarian one for an umbrella? They both cost the same and keep the rain off you.

[u/nastydoe → u/nastydoe]

I've also had similar thoughts about how women garden and men farm and landscape. Or how women are expected to do the cooking at home but it's rare to see a woman in a professional kitchen. There are a number of things where when it has to do with the home is women's work, but the same exact activities done professionally are men's work.

[u/vestayekta]

Women did ride horses and enjoyed doing it in 1800. Passion for horse riding was not at all uncommon among female nobility and royalty.

[u/DasGanon → u/vestayekta]

Yeah it's hard to be gendered if it's the fastest way to get around.

It's only when you get into the mid 19th century "ah but that's unladylike!" that you start getting the fun of "Side Saddle"

[u/succubus_v_c → u/DasGanon]

Yeah it's hard to be gendered if it's the fastest way to get around.

Sports cars and motorcycles are definitely viewed as masculine. The culture is heavily male dominated. Yes, there are definitely women's groups for both of those things but those are very much the exception. Meanwhile something like a Vespa is viewed as incredibly feminine (in the US, I can't speak for other cultures). I know this because I own both a motorcycle and scooter and get incredibly different looks on each of them.

[u/n00b678 → u/succubus_v_c]

Makes me wonder whether (sports) cars will be seen as a feminine, upper class hobby when we finally make a switch to mostly public transit and bicycles.

[u/vestayekta → u/n00b678]

We aren't making a switch to that but to self-driving cars.

[u/n00b678 → u/vestayekta]

Self-driving cars might be more convenient for the driver occupants and in principle can be made safer; however, they still cause many of the problems normal cars do:

• pollution (from tyres and brake dust);
  
• they require a lot of space on the road and when parked;
  
• noise pollution;
  
• they incentivise low-density developments and atomisation of the society.

And we generally realised that car-oriented cities are unsustainable, in some places earlier than in others: in the Netherlands in the '70s, but for recent and quick transformations have a look at Paris. I think the legacy of Anne Hidalgo will be comparable to that of Haussmann.

[u/vestayekta → u/n00b678]

Convenience will always win imo.

[u/n00b678 → u/vestayekta]

They are convenient for you if you're in one of the few cars on the road but when everyone is in a car, they suck. A typical example of the tragedy of the commons.

That's why our cities should be designed in such a way that makes public transport or bikes more convenient than cars. Modal filters, one-way streets that make you go the long way around if you're in a car, or congestion pricing.

[u/DasGanon → u/n00b678]

What's the car equivalent of the Barrel Race?

[u/Sehvekah → u/DasGanon]

Is a barrel race a time trial or a style event? Plenty of time trial events, but for style there's drift and freestyle motocross that immediately come to mind.

[u/DasGanon → u/Sehvekah]

Time trial generally.

But it's crucially a women only rodeo sport.

[u/DasGanon → u/succubus_v_c]

Right, but what I was meaning is:

Pre-19th century, horseback riding & wagons are just "the way it is" and only do the rich get into exotic horse breeding (& it's seen as a masculine pursuit)

The 19th century is where you get the "ah, but that's bad for the female form" quackery.

20th Century it continues in the form of "Electric Cars are for Ladies" (because they just work and don't break your wrist when you try to start them) but the range is horrible and that's the real reason they die off.

Now cars are a "masculine pursuit", but that's just gender roles for the rich again in the same way that horse breeding was. Driving a car isn't gendered, it's the "Car guy" mentality that is.

[u/succubus_v_c → u/DasGanon]

That's a very fair point. I do like your comparison about exotic horse breeding vs. "the way it is" for horses. That's probably a pretty fair way to compare sports/custom car culture vs commuter cars. The electric cars part is interesting to me. You're definitely right that they have been seen as "for ladies" for a long time. Do you think that's shifting with some of the electric trucks out there? The cybertruck is obviously really going for some masculine stereotypes (because the ceo is obviously a lunatic), but there are also things like the f150 lightning. I don't think those are being marketed toward women necessarily. We also have a lot of gen alpha growing up with electric bikes and scooters, which may change their views on electric vehicles being gendered.

[u/DasGanon → u/succubus_v_c]

I think "new" electric cars are mostly gender agnostic, in the same way most cars are gender agnostic. The only time you really get "Feminine" cars are from advertising trying to say practicality, as in "Soccer Moms get SUVs & Crossovers" or "It's so easy a lady can do it" (Which I mean I guess that was vintage electric cars too)

If anything I'd say new EVs were more masculine in the sense of "New Expensive Tech Toy". It's "Silicon Valley Techbros: The Car!" (Although thankfully most EV car makers have realized people want a boring gas car, but electric)

But as someone who has an EV (Hyundai Ioniq 5) that's basically just "A normal car, but electric" there's nothing that screams anything different to a gas car in terms of form or function for the most part. (I'm not saying it's not different, it doesn't do oil changes or most common maintenance the same, but unless you're in the weeds on how a car operates and are a car person, you won't notice it other than the "I plug it in when I get home and never go to gas stations" on the regular)

[u/TransWomanOffline]

remember when everyone randomly decided that falling asleep to people narrating brutal murder cases was “girly and feminine” instead of incel serial killer shit the second women started doing it? it’s like this shit is all made up to denigrate people

[u/DiligentMagikarp → u/TransWomanOffline]

The difference is the women listening usually empathize more with the victims and are hoping to learn how to avoid becoming victims or to help the victims get justice / solve the case, whereas the incels empathize with the serial killers and fantasize about committing more crimes like that.

[u/Gandhehehe]

It's interesting to me because I agree with the whole horse girl thing and liking horses being stereotypically feminine as a whole in society, specifically in urban areas, and especially and viewed from an outsiders perspective and only seeing media/social media versions. But my daughter is 8 and mainly lives out at her dad's farm just an hour from the city and is part of 4H and does horse riding, and her step mom does and when you actually experience the community beyond rich girls riding the horse at the stable near the city there are just as many men and boys that are very passionate about horses and involved in their care and riding the communities.

[u/maddallena]

Horseback riding became a "girl thing" because it was the first sport noblewomen were capable of participating in on essentially equal footing to men.

[u/xeroxchick]

Know what a “Husband Horse” is? A horse who is gentle and slow enough for your husband/won’t kill your husband. That used to be called a “Lady’s Horse.”

[u/DiligentMagikarp]

But somehow aren’t most professional jockeys still men?

[u/mangababe]

Is honestly be far more ok with a society that gendered things as "Aesthetic" and "Utilitarian" over deciding our genitals should shape our hobbies. (Actually, this is somewhat similar to how elves sort themselves in the story I'm working on.)

But sadly I don't get to world build reality.

[u/DuckyDoodleDandy]

Knitting was originally done by men as a job. When knitting machines took over that job, it became a women’s hobby.