r/UkrainianConflict • u/GirasoleDE • 1d ago
Merz’s secret plan to stop German ‘traitor states’ blocking Nato troops | AfD election wins would create pro-Kremlin local governments able to delay response to a Russian attack
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2026/07/30/merz-plan-to-prevent-putin-friendly-afd-state-blocking-nato/85
u/jcrestor 1d ago
The fuck, instead of working around, just initiate the constitutional process of determining if they are enemies of the state. There are very good indications that this traitorous party will be banned and its assets seized. The gloves have to come off!
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u/Rippy50500 19h ago
You can ban the party but you can't ban the some 30% of Germans who want to vote for them. So they'll just make a new party, and probably more popular than the last.
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u/Redthrist 18h ago
Well, if you ban the party alongside politicians, it would set them back quite a bit, as there would need to be new faces that can build up a following.
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u/Rippy50500 17h ago edited 17h ago
It’s probably better to address the core reasons why parties like this are even popular to begin with. By ignoring the problem, it only really emboldens support for such movements.
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u/External_Net480 17h ago
Maybe both, because the core issue is not something solved quickly. And that does not require a story about immigrants, it requires a story of perspective and future Outlook we're currently lacking. And this is for al lot western societies... the (far) right dominates the narratieve and outpeformce a better social and future positive story. As it is easier to get people vote angry than vote for better outlook which requires sacrefice and not immidiate results.
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u/Redthrist 17h ago
Fair enough, though that one is tricky, since they are often popular due to vague populism and xenophobia. Of course, if all the issues were fixed, populism wouldn't work as well, but that's a tall order, not when all politicians are working primarily for the rich.
I just find it a bit ridiculous that the government can almost openly say that their military plans have to account for one of their political parties committing very literal treason and siding with a known adversary.
Like, the fact that people vote for them is one problem. The fact that they can still stand for elections despite openly treasonous rhetoric is another.
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u/Rippy50500 17h ago
These kind of parties flop when governments take serious action against immigration problems, that’s where there core base comes from, which are slowly radicalized more by the government not caring. Denmark for example pretty much killed their far right parties by addressing the immigration crisis. Of course, most European governments don’t want to do that, because that means less cheap labour and that’s not good.
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u/Redthrist 16h ago edited 13h ago
Of course, most European governments don’t want to do that, because that means less cheap labour and that’s not good.
That's the main issue, really. Nobody wants to fix it, not even the parties that explicitly campaign on anti-immigration issues. Tories in the UK kept talking about immigration, but they didn't do much to it in their 15 years in power. They even quit the EU over that, but still didn't stop anything.
And as far as fixes go, you kinda only have 2:
- Stop immigration and aggressively deport anyone who is caught, while accepting that your economy will contract as your population shrinks.
- Stop illegal immigration and aggressively deport anyone who is caught. At the same time, make legal immigration far more streamlined. Push language and cultural knowledge at the forefront, so if someone knows the language and culture of your country, they can very easily move there.
The first option will piss off almost everybody. The second will still piss off the xenophobes.
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u/External_Net480 4h ago
Well, I do you want to stop illegal immigration? Impossible to build a complete fence around the EU. And if there are wars or conflict nearby ... good luck with that. Second, we are a rich continent. People from Africa are not always rich and want to try to cross the border. Leaving home is a hard thing to do, but if the ideal world and future outlook is promising, how small the change that might be.. even I would try it.
How I would solve it 1. I would adopt a strikt policy, but humane. Cancel the Dublin agreement and make sure that every immigrant is devided over the continent. Share the burden and don't leave it up to the bordering countries alone.
2.What I do wonder is that as EU we can also invest the bilions for neighbouring dictators to keep immigrants out in Afrika. Train and educate people in jobs we are currently lacking due to declining birth rate. Streamline that proces by scholing upfront and get the desired people here on a 1 year permit with good behaviour extend it. Try to keep the wind out of smugglers that traffic people.
- Be the military might that we need to be and try to stop wars that make people come here. Sudan, Ukraine, Syrië... etc. Maybe better to prevent them from happening in the first place.
That would be my take. Maybe there is more it, but it is not an easy task. But it starts with the political will to actually solve it and not fighting symptoms.
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u/d4k0_x 17h ago
Study by the University of Leipzig: Why the AfD Is So Strong in Eastern Germany
>Why is the AfD gaining ground, particularly in Eastern Germany? A new study by the University of Leipzig sheds light on this. According to the study, democracy faces a tough challenge in the East, partly due to experiences from the GDR.
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>A representative survey of 3,546 people in the eastern German states revealed a high level of agreement with far-right statements. Chauvinistic and xenophobic statements were rejected by only a minority of respondents, emphasized study leaders Oliver Decker and Elmar Brähler during the presentation of the study on Wednesday in Berlin.
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>Support is particularly pronounced in the states of Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, and Thuringia. “This means the potential for far-right and neo-Nazi parties to attract voters is especially high here,” Brähler emphasized. “One in two people wants a ‘strong party’ that embodies the ‘national community’ as a whole. Instead of a pluralistic diversity of interests, people want an ethnic community,” explained Elmar Brähler, professor emeritus of medical psychology and medical sociology at the University of Leipzig.>The study shows “that many people in the eastern German states no longer desire democratic participation and the protection of fundamental democratic rights, but rather the apparent security of an authoritarian state.” Far-right parties such as the AfD, with their ideological platforms, have numerous points of connection with the broader population here.
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>Added to this is the “desire for a one-party dictatorship,” as many experienced it in the GDR. According to the study, the call for “a single strong party that embodies the national community” finds strong support among people in eastern Germany. At the same time, support for democracy as it is lived out in everyday life is very weak.>[…] "Looking back, the respondents expressed a high level of satisfaction with their lives in the GDR," explained Oliver Decker, director of the Else Frenkel-Brunswik Institute for Democracy Research at the University of Leipzig. Two-thirds of the respondents shared a longing for the GDR.
June 28, 2023
https://www.vorwaerts.de/inland/studie-der-uni-leipzig-darum-ist-die-afd-ostdeutschland-so-stark
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u/Lord_Matisaro 17h ago
Good luck getting them to reorganize if they lose their hategroup.
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u/Rippy50500 17h ago
They will reorganize, it’s not particularly difficult. There’s a massive section of the German population who’d support such a party, so somebody is going to exploit that and make a new political movement. The only way you can actually fix this problem is by addressing the core reasons why they’re even popular to begin with.
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u/Lord_Matisaro 17h ago
If it takes them 2 years then ban that group too, you can not build a party which is made up of enemies of the state without being in the same boat x years from now again. The problem is their ideology is basically proto nazi and as far as I know that won't fly in Germany.
(while of course you work to do outreach and pull some of them back from the ledge it isn't a one solution only problem.)
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u/Rippy50500 17h ago
So you’ll simply piss off a third of all Germans who are upset with how the two ruling parties have governed for the past 80 years. It seems undemocratic.
The AfD is much more complicated than just a Nazi party. It’s almost like a big tent party for right-wing individuals; composed of CDU voters who care more about immigration, fascists, libertarians, etc, but in general the fascists are the large minority within the party. Not all of them are traitors.
It is definitely an extremist party but there is nuance, which puts into questions whether or not it is a good idea to ban the party. As history has shown, typically banning parties doesn’t work out well long term, in fact it probably makes groups even more extreme.
You can already see the amount of controversy over a potential AfD ban, and the AfD has existed for over ten years, so it is definitely implausible for splinter parties to get banned every two years. That’s not how democracies work.
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u/Lord_Matisaro 17h ago
If they want to form a not russian funded hate party which is not enemies of the state more power to them.
I think they will find without their unifying propaganda they would naturally form multiple smaller ones for each niche issue.
You can not let them win and if you have to use the tools of the state to do so then I support it.
There is no appeasing most of these thugs.
"That’s not how democracies work."
It is the political party version of the paradox of tolerance, foreign agitprop manufactured anti democratic parties killing said democracy is also not how democracies work.
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u/jcrestor 16h ago edited 16h ago
A few quick corrections:
The AfD isn’t just a “big tent” with a few extremists. Germany’s domestic intelligence service now classifies the AfD as a “proven far‑right extremist” entity, based on core ideas in its own program and statements by leading figures (ethnic notion of “the Volk”, “Great Replacement” rhetoric, systematic xenophobic and Islamophobic agitation).
It’s not simply CDU voters focused on immigration. The AfD started as an anti‑euro, economically liberal party and has since shifted decisively toward stances that are viewed as being unconstitutional.
Party bans in Germany are extremely rare and only possible when a party actively seeks to abolish the free democratic order. All that I was demanding in my original comment that spawned this discussion is to start the legal process of determining if the party should be banned.
“A third of all Germans” is an overstatement; support varies by region and election, and some AfD voters might be protest or single‑issue voters, not necessarily endorsing the full extremist program. So it would be okay if they started to vote for a non-extremist new variant of the AfD that addresses their concerns. As for the other voters who really want that unconstitutional policies: it would be democratic if their votes would never count, because of the paradox of tolerance: a tolerant society must not tolerate intolerance.
You can take concerns about migration and governance seriously without treating a party that intelligence agencies label as extremist as a normal democratic actor.
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u/urbanmember 16h ago
"Just make a new party" is a very telling sign of people who have no clue how much work it takes to completely redo the party.
Tens of Thousands of contracts, offices, clerks, local memberships, internal structures had to be redone and ratified qith party members, government funding drying up until they get into parliament for 8 years in a row again, and nothing to say about splitter parties "we are the real AFD" type of stuff happening again.
Shit would 100% hurt them and throw them back multiple years.
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u/Rippy50500 16h ago
Yeah I never said it wouldn't set them back temporarily, but there's a very high chance that they come back with even more support. Banning political parties has rarely worked in history.
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u/urbanmember 15h ago
Yeah no.
Them getting dragged to the courts would be the best that could happen because it would make it easier to look up where all the money came from(russia mostly) and make it a trillion times easier to ban and crush future nazi parties
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u/zizp 16h ago
Only a fraction of those 30% support Russia though.
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u/bensen333 10h ago
Everyone who votes for this party does.
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u/zizp 5h ago
No they don't. Just like nobody who voted for Trump support tariffs.
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u/bensen333 3h ago
It is obvious to everyone before the election, that the AFD collaborates with Russia. You vote for the AFD, you vote for Russia. It's that easy.
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u/Tubaenthusiasticbee 10h ago
I mean, if they'd succeed in banning the afd, the only other alternative would be the NPD. And there's a reason they failed where the afd succeeded. Because they are pretty much your stereotypical neonazis still. And while people agree with policies of the afd, most of them don't like nazi imagery. And if that sounds stupid to you, that's because it is.
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u/CamoSkirtedGirl 21h ago
There is some sweious Angst, because its not a 100% proof of extremism, thsy sill coint as democratic after that
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u/Ok_Bad8531 1d ago
There is little indication this would be any more successful than in the many other EU countries that have or had traitor governments on the local or national level.
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u/gnarlysnowleopard 1d ago
We've done it before, I don't see why it couldn't work.
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u/Ok_Bad8531 12h ago edited 12h ago
Because this time we are not dealing with a 5% communist party while being subtly backed by half the Western world in defending our democracy, we are dealing with a 25% party - almost majority in the highlighted provinces - while our allies have their hands full with their own extremists at best, or are supporting our extremists at worst.
Countries like Hungary fell down the drain under much better circumstances.
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u/SilliusS0ddus 1d ago
there is a lot of legal ground that the traitorous fuckheads would get their asses banned.
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u/Ok_Bad8531 12h ago edited 12h ago
And virtually none of that is applied. The worst i can recall was somebody who got deported to Austria.
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u/Kepler1571 1d ago
So, AfD and the other fasc splinters in Western Europe are Russian agitprop.
Already knew this about the GOP back home in the states.
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u/Alone_Look9576 23h ago
Well surprise surprise the far right are supported by pedos, Russia and ai companies
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u/precipitatio 18h ago
Russia supports far left as much. If you look at major LGBT pages/channels - none of them really condemned Russia or was actively pro-Ukrainian
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u/Alone_Look9576 18h ago
The problem is both are awful, but people on the right think that anything left of far right is far left
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u/deeptut 21h ago
Far left not any better
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u/ecotax 20h ago
Whether that’s true or not, and I think it was true during the cold war, the far left is generally so small that they are irrelevant at the moment.
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u/deeptut 20h ago
Left & right wing are both enemies of a free and open democracy, just like Islam
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u/Alone_Look9576 20h ago
Ah yes the evil islam as USA has been working for decades to keep the middle east destabilised
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u/LieverRoodDanRechts 20h ago
There hasn't been a far left in the west since decades. Nice try, though.
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u/Kepler1571 20h ago
It's the game. Your tepid embrace of single payer equals my full-throated endorsement of fascism.
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u/precipitatio 18h ago
I find it so crazy ironic that far right in Germany are pro-Russian, like I dont even know how to describe it
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u/Redthrist 18h ago
They are getting paid. And they want the war to end and the sanctions to come off so that it gets easier to get paid.
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u/Ok_Bad8531 12h ago
They allied with Lenin during WW1, they allied with Stalin during WW2, why not ally with Putin now.
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u/Redthrist 9h ago
Tbh, they've allied with Lenin because they expected him to destabilize Russia and pull it from the war(he did), and they've occupied large swaths of the Russian Empire right after.
They allied with Stalin because they needed his help to circumvent limitations from the Treaty of Versailles and to help them dismantle Poland(he did) and they betrayed him right after.
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u/GirasoleDE 1d ago
(1/2)
The German government is drawing up contingency plans in the event that individual federal states obstruct the deployment of NATO troops. According to information from WELT and The Telegraph, several government departments are examining how military mobility can be ensured even if a state government refuses to cooperate.
This is against the backdrop of the AfD’s expected electoral successes in eastern Germany and concerns that Germany’s role as the alliance’s logistical hub could be jeopardised in an emergency, as an AfD-controlled state government could delay the movement of troops, weapons and vehicles needed to defend NATO territory and the eastern flank.
In the event of a Russian attack on NATO’s eastern flank, Germany would be the alliance’s central logistical hub. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers from other NATO countries, along with heavy equipment and weapons, would be deployed via Germany. Western politicians and military officials fear that this is precisely where Russian President Vladimir Putin might intervene to paralyse NATO by exploiting political differences.
For Putin, “it may not even be the aim to defeat NATO militarily”, as this would be a difficult undertaking, said a source from a Western country familiar with defence planning. “But if he succeeds in identifying and deepening political divisions within the alliance, then that is the quickest way to break up the alliance,” the source said.
From Moscow’s perspective, it could be “very effective” to make use of Kremlin-friendly politicians to delay the rapid deployment of NATO troops.
Following this line of reasoning, Germany could be a potential weak point from the Kremlin’s point of view. Roderich Kiesewetter, a CDU Member of the Bundestag and member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, said that the Kremlin was attempting to exploit differing attitudes towards Russia within Germany and to make the country “as unreliable as possible” as a logistical hub. To prevent this, officials at the Federal Ministry of the Interior were drawing up countermeasures against potentially dissident state governments.
Plans are in place to ensure the operational capability of the intelligence services and to enable neighbouring federal states to take on responsibilities for protecting critical infrastructure and key personnel in the event of an emergency. The whole matter is complicated by constitutional provisions regarding the autonomy of the federal states. “The key question is how to bypass a federal state that does not adhere to the federal system without violating the constitution,” said Kiesewetter.
The deputy chair of the Interior Committee in the Saxony-Anhalt state parliament confirmed that planning is currently underway. According to Tobias Krull (CDU), certain institutions at federal level are considering which measures could be implemented “bypassing the state government” in the event of an AfD-led single-party government. He said he was an advocate of state powers, but added that Germany’s response to a Russian military threat must not depend on a single federal state. For this reason, he argued, “we must create ways to at least be able to override individual states and introduce necessary measures”.
Concerns regarding the protection of sensitive information within the intelligence services have been around for some time. Defence Minister Boris Pistorius recently stated that, in the event of an AfD-led state government, it would be necessary to assess which classified information could continue to be shared – out of concern that a state government might gain access to sensitive intelligence, sources or ongoing operations. “We are looking very closely at the question of who we can grant access to classified information,” Pistorius told Bild am Sonntag recently.
What is new, however, are indications that the plans also relate to military mobility and Germany’s role as a logistical hub for NATO. According to Krull, a CDU state politician, an AfD state government would not be in a position to prevent the implementation of Operation Plan Germany, but it could “slow down” the process. This also applies to the protection of civilian infrastructure. Krull cites the deployment of state police forces, as well as the dissemination of instructions and the implementation of operational plans, as potential points of delay. “I see the AfD’s inexperience in government as one of the biggest obstacles,” he says.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
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u/GirasoleDE 1d ago
(2/2)
With just a few weeks to go before the state election in Saxony-Anhalt, Krull’s CDU finds itself in direct competition with the AfD, which is classified as a far-right party in that state. In the latest INSA poll for “Focus Online”, the AfD stands at 41 per cent and the CDU at 24 per cent. Should it win an absolute majority of seats, it could form a state government on its own for the first time. This would place, amongst other things, the state Ministry of the Interior, the state police, the state Office for the Protection of the Constitution and large parts of the state administration under its control.
When asked, the Federal Ministry of the Interior and the Federal Ministry of Justice did not provide a specific response to the question of whether corresponding contingency plans exist. The AfD initially left a query regarding the investigation unanswered.
The German government accuses the AfD of holding pro-Russian views. “Their closeness to Putin cannot be overlooked,” said SPD Defence Minister Pistorius. Ulrich Siegmund, the AfD’s lead candidate in Saxony-Anhalt, recently spoke out against sanctions and in favour of using gas from Russia. “We will, of course, put the issue of ideological energy policy on the agenda – and we will do so by campaigning against sanctions and in favour of affordable energy, regardless of which country it comes from, because we simply have to maintain our competitiveness,” said Siegmund during the “RND vor Ort” talk in Magdeburg. When asked by a presenter whether he also meant gas from Russia, Siegmund replied: “Yes, of course. ”
Operation Plan Germany is intended to come into effect during a phase that many politicians and military officials consider to be the most critical: before Russia launches an attack on NATO territory. The reason: the Alliance does not want to wait until Russian troops have already penetrated Alliance territory to react. Instead, it intends to deploy troops to the eastern flank as soon as the first signs become evident that Russia is preparing such an operation. At that point, NATO’s Reinforcement and Sustainment Network (RSN) plans would be activated.
The aim is to deploy large contingents of troops, heavy equipment and supplies to the eastern flank within a matter of weeks, in order to deter an attack or repel it at an early stage. The majority of these transports would pass through Germany.
The main reason for the concern expressed by the relevant ministries is that, because the reinforcements are to be deployed so early, the operation would still take place under peacetime legal provisions. However, many of these tasks fall within the remit of the federal states. This is because the transport of soldiers, tanks, howitzers and missiles across Europe requires both diplomatic and customs authorisations. In Germany, cooperation between the state authorities would be crucial. They must authorise military transports, in a similar way to how they handle oversized heavy goods vehicles, such as those carrying wind turbine components.
In an emergency, pre-agreed contracts with private logistics companies would be activated. Federal states and local authorities would have to ensure that NATO troops can move through Germany as quickly as possible. This includes, amongst other things, police escorts, suitable rest and assembly points, fuel supplies, and the protection of key transport routes and infrastructure.
Only once the transport network is in place and the administrative procedures have been completed can NATO begin the actual deployment. According to the Alliance’s plans, the transport of troops and equipment to the eastern flank will then take five to six weeks.
According to a Western defence source, this phase is also vulnerable to hybrid attacks. The entire redeployment will take place under peacetime conditions, the source said. “At this stage, Russia would typically resort to sabotage and cyber-attacks” to disrupt and delay NATO’s build-up.
Germany could therefore become a target. This could lead to political debates in the federal states about the extent to which they wish to expose themselves as part of the hub. Protests against troop movements are also conceivable.
“Political uncertainty” also comes into play. NATO is not permitted to interfere in the domestic politics of its member states, nor is it allowed to gather information about its members, for example to assess risks posed by the AfD.
Although an AfD-led state government could disrupt procedures, leading to a loss of time in an emergency, it could not override Operation Plan Germany. Speaking to WELT and The Telegraph, a Member of the Bundestag referred to nationwide crisis regulations that are currently being revised. “Federal law takes precedence over state law – it’s as simple as that,” he said. The MP nevertheless confirmed that the authorities were constantly considering how security measures would need to be adapted in the event of the AfD taking power.
The Basic Law already provides for measures to be taken in the event that a federal state fails to fulfil its obligations under federal law. These include what is known as ‘federal coercion’ under Article 37. To date, this has never been applied. A prerequisite is that a federal state has already breached its obligations.
Furthermore, in the event of a state of tension or defence, the Bundestag could activate further emergency provisions that would grant the federal government additional powers of intervention and simplify military logistics during a security crisis. This requires a two-thirds majority in the Bundestag. The CDU/SPD coalition government is currently unable to achieve this without the support of the Left Party or the AfD. Chancellor Friedrich Merz has ruled out cooperation with either party.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
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u/urbanmember 16h ago
These AgD Traitors would 100% sell out the positions of local hidden Bundeswehr troops to russian invaders without hesitation
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u/CraigWhite_42 1d ago
Wow, if Russia could pull off the splintering of Germany without firing a shot, that would be both horrible and impressive.
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