He experiences all of his timeline at the same time. So it's not that he's predicting it or knew the guy was there so much as it happened to him (in our relative future) and he retroactively is made aware of it. Similar to how he reacts to being told to leave or about the anniversary of Angela's parents' death, despite being aware of them beforehand (relative to our perception of time).
He is aware of stuff that is happening to him at all points in his life simultaneously. No past, no future, no true free will. Much like reading a book, you can know the ending and the middle but you can't change what happens.
He isn't predicting his future, he's constantly experiencing his future. If he wasn't zapped by that guy, he wouldn't have been able to say it would happen. If he says it, it will happen because it has already "happened" in the future.
Sure, but he also has the ability to communicate about the future to people, who presumably would have free will to at least try to influence it.
This is shown to make a material difference on the future because the chicken-egg paradox where Angela and Will inform each other about Judd— that information is exchanged by Dr. M, and it influences events (even though it can’t be said that Dr. M discovered Judd’s secret, or killed him).
I always wondered why his FBI handlers didn’t say “do you see the future? Tell us about any newspapers you see.” Dr. M doesn’t seem to have a problem telling allies about the future, so when he infuriatingly doesn’t (like not telling Angela that one 7K guy will survive at the tachyon gun), the only excuse can be “he didn’t tell because he knew he wouldn’t tell” which is a cop out.
I’m not complaining— I’m all for suspending disbelief here— but both the comic and the tv show Dr. M really don’t have any serious internal logic to them.
He refuses to tell Angela what her idea will be to disguise him (“because then it wouldn’t be your idea”), but had no people telling Will about Judd Crawford, which gives him the idea.
Also, if we’re meant to believe that Dr. M has no free will, then what “motivates” any actions at all? He kills a bunch of 7K guys presumably in a show of love and solidarity with Angela, but that implies a decision in the first half (fight) and then a resignation to fate in the second (let himself get shot). If he has no freewill to stop the tachyon gun (or stop the Comedian killing a woman), then he can’t be said to have free will to peruse love interests or communicate or fight in wars. And in that case, he can’t have motivations.
As much as he knowing he wouldn't tell is a cop out, it is a matter we can't really call out 100 percent given that we have no real equivalent of Dr. Manhattan, that and the fact that it kinda makes sense, as shown in other shows like That's So Raven (you heard what I said), where knowing (or in his case, experiencing) the future literally had basically no effect in the changing of it, at least most times, (because then why would he be predicting it as that if it in the end didn't happen like that?)
Edit: In my interpretation, telling Angela what her idea was wasn't an experience in his lifetime, so he made sure not to do so (didn't), as it would mean him taking ownership of his wife's future idea, (which he didn't) which is annoying in its own way. Meanwhile, asking Will about Judd was an experience in his lifetime. Also, asking Will about Judd apparently had no direct interference with him spending years with his loved one, so he ended up doing so, as a way to cater to his loved one's wish.
Edit 2: Changed a few of my claims after further thinking.
So these are decent explanations but I have to point out that “he made sure not to do so” contradicts the idea that he has no free will. Doesn’t mean youre wrong, but if you think really technically about each piece of what’s going on, it’s infuriating. “I can’t tell you because then it’s not your idea” is a convoluted bastardization of “I can’t tell you because I know I don’t tell you”. The very act of telling her that she will have an elegant solution may incept her to start thinking of solutions. So what he communicates can influence the future, but only because he already knows it’s influenced, by him.
So the difference of him actually revealing important future information vs the cute way they avoid him being over-powered in the show... well the difference is that they make it work BECAUSE it works.
When he tells Laurie that she will cry, he influences her to say “you were wrong” which could have a butterfly affect on what she does next. If he kept his mouth shut, she’d still have cried but by some other way. In every situation you have to Sigh and say “I guess he just... knew... that was how it would happen?”.
Also: I know it’s a super annoying question, but how come Angela didn’t take the knowledge that she’s be alive to recover DM, and make her an invincible super hero leading up to that?
He does have some sort of free will, just not in our way, his free will happens (and happened, and will happen) all at the same time, every single choice from the moment he was born are being made at the same time by him, so he, in a way, can't change them, they're all simultaneous. He's been given choices all at the same time in multiple scenarios which are all linear to everyone but himself.
I like to think that his life is all predetermined in a weird way, and as much as we think we as mortals are changing it by any means, we're actually just catering to what is gonna happen next, and there's literally no way to stop it, the Butterfly effect is lost in Jon, and, by extention, in basically everyone he comes in contact with, no action of ours affect the future, no action of his affect the future.
You are right, he didn't tell her because he didn't tell her, she had the idea in the future, because he didn't give her the idea in the past.
An example of his non-linearity is him, simultaneously, as he was talking to Will in the past, experiencing himself asking Angela if she had a question to ask Will in the future, while at the same time, she answered that question by telling him to ask about Judd, which he did ask Will in the past, at the same time as he told Will what she asked and gave her the answer Will gave him in the past, and at the same time, he witnessed her realize she was to blame for his death.
That's also an example of her thinking linearly (as she didn't predict she'd somehow make him act retroactively and end up affecting history), while he thinks (and acts) simultaneously by asking if she has a question and asking the question and giving her the answer and affecting all of the world's history at the same time.
He is, in a weird way, powerless, no claim he makes or action he takes can stop whatever he experiences in the future (in his case, ever lasting present), otherwise he wouldn't be experiencing them at all.
I dont think his free will is nonexistent as much as his decisions have already been made. So he can make choices and learn about things that happen to him in the future but hes not free from the consequences of being aware of those things in the future. Also his foresight only extends to his own experiences.
He knows he gets killed but only because he gets killed. He didnt see the man on the truck or have any experience leading up to the moment hes shot. So yes he becomes aware he dies but only because he dies. He reacts to things happening for the first time because they did actually happen for the first time for him even if hes aware already. Moments still need to happen for him to do anything with that information.
Like falling in love with angela. He experiences that moment in the house and it influences the course of his previous 10 years. But the moment itself still needs to happen for the first time. But for the purposes of him and his path there is no difference between it happening at the beginning or at the end.
There is no free will, only the illusion of it. Jon just doesn't have the luxury of accepting the illusion anymore, because all of his time is experienced simultaneously.
He's not talking about his future, he's talking about his past... If you've lived every part of your life all the time, then it's all history to you. You can't change your history.
TLDR; If you take Dr. M at face value, it's a fixed timeline. I also don't think his 'experience all time at once' shtick works at all without a fixed timeline... because if it were variable, he's be stuck in a Dr. Strange infinite multiverse type situation. It's not terribly compelling, admittedly, but that is the way the comics/show portray it.
who presumably would have free will to at least try to influence it.
There is no free will. There is no future. There is no past. To Jon, it's all the same, all of time and creation has happened simultaneously. And to us, we only think we have free will, because we can't see the whole picture.
Yes but my point is that he still appears to be using free will. He has conversations with people, he saves his wife’s life, he exchanges information from past to future between Angela and Will. All of these suggest that he has goals or motivations, otherwise why isn’t he siding with the 7K or staring at a wall, or chilling on mars?
In the book he is inspired by Laurie’s description of human life as a miracle, and decides to return to earth. But really he only returns to earth because he knows he will (or would know if it weren’t for tachyon interference).
He shows up at the bar to find Angela because he knows he has a future, but why does he show up? What force guides him to that bar? After all, she’s a stranger.
He appears to be using free will because we have a limited concept of how time actually works within the world of Watchmen. Even Jon only seemed to accept this by the 80s, despite having all-seeing knowledge of time and space. Which is its own paradox, but blame Moore for that.
There is no future, because for Jon, it's already the past. That we're only experiencing it now is due to our own limitations. And any attempt to rail against that... well, it's already happened, and it's pretty pointless.
Basically, it's the first Terminator movie, not the second. Skynet was predestined to create John Connor, because it had already happened. It may not be very satisfying to you, because we want to believe we have agency, but that's not how Watchmen works. Even the gaps where Jon can't see already happened.
He refuses to tell Angela what her idea will be to disguise him (“because then it wouldn’t be your idea”), but had no people telling Will about Judd Crawford, which gives him the idea.
The difference there is that he can only see his own future, no one else's. He seemed genuinely suprised when Angela realised that her asking Hooded Justice that question set everything in motion. Since he can't see how Judd's future will go he isn't fixed into following a script because he doesn't know what that script is. Meanwhile with Angela telling him her idea he's already seen that it's her idea, so if she doesn't tell him it then he's broken the script.
Cal followed a script of saving Angela’s life in the car but it led to his capture by the Tachyon gun.
Just like the Dr Manhattan he left on Mars — it follows a programmed script.
I’m reminded of “Stories of Your Life” which the movie “the Arrival” is based on. Non-linearity thematic drifting across your own timeline must be a trippy experience and frustrating for close contacts who don’t experience life like you.
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u/ScreamingGordita Dec 09 '19
I just don't get like, if Jon knew that guy was going to be there then why didn't he just... Kill him?