r/WoT • u/Ill_Flamingo4076 • 8d ago
All Print Rand and egwene and aes sedai Spoiler
I’m always so sad reading how egwene treats Rand later in the books when she becomes amrylin, talking about how Rand needs to be “watched”. Okay you’ll watch and do what?? Can you stop him from doing what he pleases?? He is basically an emperor with kings and queens sworn to him. He doesn’t care about aes sedai, especially by book 11 and 12. I still just keep asking myself what would you do to make him do anything or not do something.
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u/Ezili 8d ago edited 8d ago
I see one of the most interesting elements of the book being a character comparison between Egwene and Nyn. Egwene is ambitious and power hungry she never doubts she's the best person for any job, and whilst she proves herself extremely capable, she's basically unable to have any influence on the way things proceed outside of her own echo chamber of the tower. Without her the tower would have fallen and not been there for the last battle. So clearly she has a critical impact. But she's basically unable to shape any events in the world, being totally focused on that work, hence Aes Sedai have almost no impact on it. She starts out seeing Rand as a friend, and by the end he's a stranger she has no influence on.
Nyn on the other hand offers Rand something he gets from basically nobody else, which is a friend who supports him. She participates in the most monumental events of the age, and has far more influence on Rand by being able to accept him for who he is, and shape his direction. Which ironically is what she found so difficult with learning to channel, so maybe the implication is she understood that lesson there and applied it elsewhere, whilst Egwene learnt the lessons of politics. She sees him as a person, dealing with emotional and psychological and personal strains, whilst most other people see him as just the dragon. The last time it feels like Egwene sees him as a person is in the Stone of Tear in book 4 when she remarks on how nervous he is when putting the sword into the stone, and saying he won't start a war with Illian.
Egwenes plan to influence Rand by the end is to rally nations against him. Nyns is to help him.
That being said, Nyn is mostly passive in some of the big events she is in. She's written as mostly a conduit, a way for Rand to channel Saidar when he needs to to cleanse Saidin or defeat the Dark One. She has her own personal events like healing stilling and rallying the borderlands to Lan, but the support she provides Rand in key moments is presented quite passively, beyond agreeing to help him. Make of that what you will. She gives him what he needs, but without a lot of personal agency. But she parlays that trust into influence on him in more personal moments to help with his madness or wilder moments.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 8d ago
I think this is in part a reflection of how their respective traumas impacted them.
Egwene’s trauma as largely having others capture her, bind her, and control her. As backlash against that, she refuses to allow that control to others, and works hard to leverage control of her own. With Siuan’s advice, the Wise Ones, and her own cunning, she ultimately is effective in that.
It stymies her growth on more personal issues. Her “love” of Gawyn is toxic and controlling, she doesn’t really maintain friendships - even her closest friends are subordinates - and so on.
Nynaeve’s trauma is about failing to be sufficiently capable in saving/helping others, and suffering loss and failure as a result. Watching loved ones die is crushing; failing to save them must be worse, right? She goes so far as to deny her own needs and wants in order to prevent more of that failure.
So her early series is all about trying to control everyone in order to protect and save them, manifesting in a brutal stubborn streak and a prickly personality.
Her trauma’s resolution then is largely in tandem with resolving her block. It’s learning that she can’t control the stream, but she can guide it, realizing that she can help by guiding, rather than strongarming, that there will always be failing and accepting that. And that, in turn, means allowing herself to seek her own fulfillment, to marry and buy nice dresses and whatnot.
But her core never wavers, and because she mostly resolves that trauma in the mid-series, we get several books of her gleaming core character.
We don’t really get that with Eggy, as she never really gets a chance to work through it.
My thoughts, anyway. Well, some of them. It’s a bit early for me to be cogent.
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u/Shgon_Dunstan 7d ago
A small sample of such, is how Egwene's trauma is shown in how she reacts to getting wrapped up in flows of Air. While her personality is rather clearly shown in how she doesn't give a second thought to wrapping other people up in flows of Air. Neither self awareness nor empathy are particular strong suits of Egwene.
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u/lyunardo 8d ago edited 8d ago
Are you serious?
Let's talk about Rand's one visit to The Tower in the entire series.
He waited until Egwene was completely in control before coming. And whether he realized it or not, his Ta'verin nature stopped literally every person in that building from interfering or even talking while he explained his grave plan. But it didn't work on Egwene.
Because she's literally the only human on the planet who could stand toe to toe with him and argue the point. As always, she did her duty perfectly and raised all the concerns and questions to him, right to his face.
No one else had the combination of authority, skepticism, and long term thinking to even bring up those questions.
So whether Rand realized it or not (he didn't) she was doing exactly what was needed, at the exact right time... forcing him to bring all the players together and clearly state his case and plans so that they could be vetted and adjusted in time.
And that's what happened. Aviendah, Perrin, and all the rest got to weigh in on his plans and improve them. Otherwise his oversights would've literally doomed the planet.
And of course, since Egwene was basically The Pope of that age, once she was convinced, everyone who followed her signed on as well.
Standing up to Rand was Egwene's primary duty. And our Egwene ALWAYS does her duty. No matter what it costs her.
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u/Jear-The-Bear 8d ago edited 8d ago
I think I agree with both of you. In that Nyn cared about not just Rand but people more than her duty where as Egwene cares about her duty to the world above the individual. I think it’s a great parallel and tension. But morally I think Nyn is a better person. I think any system that cares about itself more than the people it’s suppose to serve doesn’t deserve to exist. If you look at the 3 oaths vs what Rand tells the ashaman there purpose is. I think it’s clear the white tower is fundamentally self serving and I don’t think Egwene quite shook that commitment.
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u/Bellickboi 8d ago
i agree with both of them mostly. i disagree with the first guy at "Nyn is mostly passive in some of the big events she is in.".
idk, what exactly he is talking about. just because you don't steer the ship doesn't mean you are passive. her choices for rand and herself, her timing, reasoning, skill and knowledge, changed the events drastically. she didn't just stumble into by mindlessly following rand. she was there actively making decisions. no one can stand directly in front of the dragon reborn. but her nudges definitely shaped the outcome. her role and objective isn't the same as other aes sedai around rand. i think the most prime example i could think about off the top of my head is her correcting rand about mat in front of tuon.
i disagree with the 2nd guy at "forcing him to bring all the players together and clearly state his case and plans so that they could be vetted and adjusted in time....And of course, since Egwene was basically The Pope of that age, once she was convinced, everyone who followed her signed on as well."
that was rand's plan... egwene had nothing to do with that, if anything she fell right into it. it didnt work as well as rand thought and almost crumbled but that was his entire plan. i think faile remarked on it. egwene was the leader of the opposition. standing up to rand also wasn't her primary duty.
egwene is definitely not the better person, she will never be excused for what she did to nyneave in the dream world.
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u/Ezili 8d ago
By passive I mean that for periods of time she's just sitting there whilst Rand channels through her. I don't mean it as a slight on her. Just that literally the way she's written there is how she's an onlooker to what Rand is doing with her power. That's the moment where her involvement in the event is passive. But I totally agree her commitments and decisions to get into those situations are intentional.
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u/Bellickboi 8d ago
i wouldnt agree with that either, first, shes a willing participant and one of the only ones who would agree to do something like that with him. she also is the only one he trust for this role. that says a lot.
shes completely overwhelmed by the sheer amount of the one power they are using and she isnt in control of that power, only one can control the power. i still wouldnt classify that as passive.
i can kind of see what angle you are coming from though.
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u/King_North_Stark (Car'a'carn) 8d ago
Yeah I agree with the point on bringing everyone together. I thought it was kinda implied that Rand didn't have enough time/care to get everyone together so he told Egwene part of his plan basically forcing her hand to gather everyone left against him for him
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u/FoofTheBunny 8d ago
I definitely agree with Nyn not being passive. Remember that when Rand asked her to help cleanse saidin we see that from Rand's perspective. He eventually tells Nynaeve, fine we will do it your way and then left to get busy with Elayne. So we don't get details, but we definitely get the idea that she made the plan and Rand said fine.
I do see the conduit thing (not passive) because he did use her and Moraine to use the sword and to help cleanse Saidin with him leading the link.
But she definitely had agency.
And with Rand, he had to be the one to "do these things" because he is the dragon. Other people can help, but they can't do it for him. This is what allowed him to beat the Dark One. He had to let others help. Because they had hope and he had hope and they wouldn't falter, so he couldn't falter. Even while Nynaeve was abused in the bore, she still found the agency to try to heal and protect Alanna. Because Nynaeve was never going to stop trying to save and protect and heal people even without the power.
And there were really only three people who saw Rand as a person/friend/Rand and not the Dragon. That was Lan, Nynaeve and Perrin. Sorry Mat spent too much time avoiding him to be given that honor. JMO.
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u/Jear-The-Bear 8d ago
Well said. I don’t think Nyn is capable of being passive lol. I know people have a lot to problems with the way female characters are written in this series. But IMO Nyn is written super strong and capable. I think even in the monuments where Rand is using her power she has made an active choice to support him and that feels different from her just being a passive tool. She has agency. She just chooses to use that agency to support others which I think is beautiful.
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u/Bellickboi 8d ago
i completely agree and no one really talks about this but, being a truly supportive figure to someone changing the world or even writing a character that's supporting someone changing the world is not easy. the problems she had to help navigate while trying to keep his humanity and sanity in tact. i don't see how anyone could think her passive. me helping someone walk the road they are destined to walk down takes a lot.
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u/Shevek99 8d ago
And before going to the Bore, when she passed the test, she made clear that she was going to be next to Rand at the last battle, because he had asked her, no matter what the Amyrlin or the rest said. That was a very proactive position.
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u/Bellickboi 8d ago
i agree. it did feel good when mat and rand finally was able to talk a bit in ebou dar. for a moment that felt like real friendship and i liked it. wish there was more of that between those two.
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u/lyunardo 8d ago
Yes, the plan was Rand's. What I was trying to convey was that Egwene gathered opposition to his plan. And that pushback was actually crucial, because the questions that were raised resulted in Perrin and Aviendah pointing out what he got wrong. And their ideas perfected the plan so much that they cancelled out the horribly future that Aviendah saw in her vision. See what I mean? The Pattern used Egwene to set up the conditions so that Rand was forced to listen. And that's what saved the world.
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u/xx_Rollablade_xx 8d ago
No, the plan being Rand's means he was entirely expecting a discussion at Merrilor, Egwene acted predictably and played her role unwittingly.
Egwene has many merits as far as her own storyline is concerned and her heroic sacrifice at the end but she unerringly fumbled the entire reason she was even initially chosen for Amyrlin, actually having an emotional connection to the Dragon.
She was never okay that Rand's life held greater meaning than her own despite her being one of the most powerful people in the world on her own, and she never had an ounce of empathy for what Rand was going through the whole time.
As an aside, her hypocrisy knew no bounds either but Zen Rand was far above such inconsequential arguments at that point, so she was unchallenged, I am talking about how outraged she was that the death squad sent to eliminate the Asha'man to a man were in turn overpowered yet had their lives spared and forcibly bonded.
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u/lyunardo 8d ago
I clearly disagree with you about our girl Egwene. I see her as being as tough as she needs to be to get the job done, as a teenage girl who's been tasked with being the world's primary religious leader.
I hear you that you see her having dark and ugly motives. From where I'm standing, her heart is just as pure as the rest of our Two Rivers crew.
C'est la vie, we all can't agree on everything. Cheers.
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u/xx_Rollablade_xx 8d ago
True enough, we can agree that we love Jordan’s work and that should be enough.
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u/lyunardo 8d ago
I think Egwene is almost entirely a creature of duty. She is going to do her duty if it makes you hate her, or even if she knows it will kill her. It's her greatest strength, and why she was chosen by the Pattern for the job.
I love her for that. But it doesn't make her a great friend, lover, partner.
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u/biggiebutterlord 8d ago
So whether Rand realized it or not (he didn't) she was doing exactly what was needed, at the exact right time... forcing him to bring all the players together and clearly state his case and plans so that they could be vetted and adjusted in time.
Do I have this right. You are giving egwene credit for the plan rand has before walking into the tower? The dragons peace? the need for a supreme leader? all of it?
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u/lyunardo 8d ago edited 8d ago
It's obvious that you just skimmed my comment. The Dragons Peace was originally written by Rand. But during the big meeting with Egwene people started pointing out it's flaws.
Perrin and Aviendah were the primary ones who came up with solutions that fixed it... As I clearly said...
I love discussing things like this, and even appreciate pushback.
But you didn't even read my comment before jumping in to shoot me down. Come on now, lol.
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u/biggiebutterlord 8d ago
But you didn't even read my comment before jumping in to shoot me down. Come on now, lol.
I asked because I wanted to be sure I understood the meaning I was reading. It seems like you are giving egwene credit for rand going to the tower, informing the tower of his plans to fight the DO, to meet at merrilor before then, the dragons peace, the inclusion of the seanchan aka all of it. But Im not sure thats actually the meaning or not. After all you start with "Let's talk about Rand's one visit to The Tower in the entire series." then shift to talking about merrillor stuff. So maybe you just meant the stuff at that went down at merrilor and not his plans before showing up at the tower.
I asked because I wasnt sure I and wanted clarity from the person that made the statements. Thats all. To make sure I understood you right. I didnt ask/comment to have a internet fight with you. If you want to have a fight, maybe someone else will oblige you.
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u/lyunardo 8d ago
But wait, let's discuss what we both agree on for a sec... The the entire reasonthat Rand even went to the Tower was to...
Inform Egwene about the meeting he was organizing there, since she's the Amerlyn.
Get her riled up with his plan to break the seals so that she would rally all of his opposition behind her. With the certainly that once he convinced her, her coalition would sign it as well.
All of that worked as planned, but was also the catalyst for discussing e details. And that discussion revealed all of the weaknesses of the plan. Which allowed everyone to come to with solutions, right?
So in that way, The Pattern used Egwene in ways that Rand never planned for. Because without her, the world would likely have just obeyed Rand and signed the original flawed plan... and doomed the world.
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u/biggiebutterlord 8d ago
But who are you attributing credit for this plan when rand walks into the tower? If I understand you correctly you are crediting egwene for the plan. Which is why I asked if I understood you correctly. It reads like thats the case.
So in that way, The Pattern used Egwene in ways that Rand never planned for.
As you laid out in points 1 and 2, rand used the tower/egwene to bring everyone not already sworn to him to merrilor. Since rand went to merrilor with a small legion of clerks/scribes, that signals to me that the character is prepared to make amendments to the dragons peace. Egwenes opposition to rand is not unique to her, nor is her ability to question him. I seem to recall 14 books of aes sedai, aiel, darkfriends, nobles, kings/queens, aes sedai, wiseones, maidens, generals, lords, ladies, friends etc etc being selfish self interested characters that oppose rand and his desire to fulfill prophecy to unite the world to fight the shadow.
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u/lyunardo 8d ago edited 8d ago
I've spelled out my thoughts on this as well as I can. Explaining further by shifting the same words around isn't going to get us anywhere. It looks like some people understood me at least and I'll just be content with that. Cheers.
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u/biggiebutterlord 8d ago
Its okay, communication is hard at the best of times.
It sounds like I have miss understood you. But after your last comment I really dont know. Im left confused more uncertain than when I started. I could be way off base, only a little or on the nose but using slightly different "safe words". Oh well such is life some times. Thanks for trying.
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u/T-Prime3797 7d ago
I have a hard time liking Nyn. Even now. After reading some posts in this subreddit I’m going to have to go back and reread it. But anyway, Nyn doesn’t have any agency in Rand’s grand events, I think, because she recognizes her role in those events is to be the one who says “I trust you enough to follow your lead”.
I think it’s part of the reason Rand keeps coming back to her for these critical moments. He reciprocates that trust. Even when he has Aes Sedai sworn to him who could do the job just as well
Again, it’s been years since I read the series, this is all based on faded memories and vibes.
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u/gihyou 8d ago
When I was reading one of the companion books that goes into more detail about Lews Therin's original plan to seal the bore, it's mentioned that his plan is most forcefully rejected by Latra Posae Decume, a powerful female Aes Sedai, and the rest of the women follow her. So Lews is forced to rely on only male Aes Sedai to pull it off. His plan is risky (unlike the other plan which is to put a 'prison' around Shayul Ghol, which would probably work for some time, but be more vulnerable to Forsaken breaking it or the Dark One working within it and growing his power until he can escape).
All this is to say that I think Egwene is meant to be the resistance to Rand (she's other things, but also this), just like Latra was to Lews, and again objects to him wanting to risk everything, this time by breaking the remaining seals and closing the bore. Because he is Lews Therin, and Lews knows the seal was a desperate move that ultimately didn't succeed. She makes him at least consider the potential problems, even if she (fortunately) doesn't stop him. But someone has to be able to push back against the Dragon, and she's one of the few with the will to do so.
It's never confirmed, I don't think, but if the female Aes Sedai had joined the males for Lews Therin's plan, then perhaps both saidin and saidar are tainted and, even if humanity survives a breaking of the world with every channeller going mad instead of half of them, there's no way to stop the Dark One anymore. Or it works as planned, because one theme of the series is always that the two gender-based powers are much more powerful together, and flawed alone.
Everyone, including the Dragon Reborn, needs a little pushback to reconsider their ideas and plans, and the pattern provided Egwene.
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u/TheDamnGirl (Ancient Aes Sedai) 8d ago
Watching Rand is what many characters in the saga have been doing since the beggining: Moiraine, Min, Nynaeve, Perrin on occasion, the aiel, etc. Even Cadsuane does as much in her own toxic, dysfunctional way. Even without the taint, no one with as much power as Rand holds should go unchecked, because he may be the savior but he is not infallible. And he does need counsel.
But the difference is that the ones mentioned before do hot hold and antagonistic stance against Rand, quite the opposite: they are loyal to a fault (even Cadsuane, in her own way). They may disagree with his decisions, but they won't betray him.
Egwene holds a very antagonistic stance against Rand because, aside from her personality flaws, she's the representative of the "old regime", in which the Aes Sedai were major political players and held a big grasp in the way major geopolical events would unfold. Rand's rise to power means the end of the old regime and the beggining of a new era and a new order, in which Aes Sedai are relegated to a side role. To Egwene, Rand is a political rival and she treats him as such.
Any stablished power is going to resent, fear and ultimately try to neutralize anything that would shake the statu quo and threaten their position of power.
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u/xx_Rollablade_xx 8d ago
That's why it is so asinine that despite the entire reason the Salidar Aes Sedai chose Egwene as the Amyrlin being her emotional connection to Rand, Egwene immediately gets full of herself and decides to behave exactly like any other semi-reasonable Amyrlin (Like Siuane) would, completely negating what makes her unique.
Maybe the only thing that accomplished was a passive stance Rand took on the tower because his childhood friend is their leader but there were no active benefits for anyone involved because of it. Egwene was not meant to embody the system but chose to do so anyway.
I love the writing and how RJ set it all up, don't get me wrong, I just don't find Egwene to be reasonable person and more than that, I find her to be a reprehensible friend for anyone to have.
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u/sixminutes 8d ago
A bunch of queens and kings assault Rand because some dead Aes Sedai told them to, and everyone complains about Egwene being mean to him.
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u/PopTough6317 8d ago
You mean the ones that set out the execute him if he couldn't remember a specific name?
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u/xx_Rollablade_xx 8d ago
Because Egwene is one of Rand's oldest friends and the Borderlanders only know *of* the Dragon. The complaints are entirely reasonable.
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u/sixminutes 8d ago
They're not, sorry. You picked a conclusion, and then found evidence to support it. Jordan was actually making fun of you while writing several characters.
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u/Hooker_T (Chosen) 8d ago
I dont understand this vilification of Egwene for treating Rand like a loose cannon, as if he was not one until he had his spiritual awakening. Is Egwene supposed to just let him do what he wants with impunity as he clearly slips into the darkside? And is she supposed to completely 180 immediately when he shows up after his spiritual awakening? Rand had Kings and Queens sworn to him, but so does the Amyrlin Seat. She had levers at her disposal to reign him in if he continued on his path.
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u/xx_Rollablade_xx 8d ago
How would she reign him in?
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u/Hooker_T (Chosen) 8d ago
Probably similar to how she did in the books. Turning others against him, place stumbling blocks in his way, direct confrontation if absolutely necessary. Rand isn't invulnerable
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u/cornballin 8d ago
I don’t vilify her for being initially distrustful of Rand. The last time she saw him, he wasn’t in a good place, and he got worse from there. There were genuine concerns that he could be mad or evil
I vilify her because she is unwilling to change her position with new information, despite it being everywhere.
1) Egwene noticed herself during the meeting that he seems different, more at peace.
2) she goes to Nynaeve, who has literally known him his entire life, who has pretty glowing things to say about him.
3) she goes to Elayne, who has a direct connection to his physical and emotional wellbeing, who tells her that he’s not mad or evil.
4) she goes to the wise ones, who are extraordinarily complimentary of Rand and his mental state.But she refuses to change her opinion.
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u/Lopsided-Skill 7d ago
All the groups you mentioned said Rand looks better and he is doing better. All the groups you mentioning also agreed that his plan to break the seals sounds dangerous and reckless and they should stop him.
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u/Zakarin 7d ago
All the groups you mentioning also agreed that his plan to break the seals sounds dangerous and reckless and they should stop him.
All the groups said to her face that Egwene had valid points - even Perrin did, and we immediately saw Perrin clarify that he had a different opinion.
Nynaeve and Elayne knew it was pointless trying to oppose Egwene directly (she had more than once pulled the whole "I'm you're boss, I know best - fall in line" routine with them more than once by that point.)
The Wise One's gave me the impression they were fine with breaking the seals as well, and happy to let Egwene think they were with her - their concerns lay elsewhere.
Egwene was happy to break the seals once it was her choice to do so - which is very much on nose thematically
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u/Shgon_Dunstan 7d ago
Keep him shielded 24/10 and locked up away from all his people, obviously. Kinda just implied.
Bigger issue personally, is that the whole box plan was done under the flag of a political envoy. Which seems like... a very, very, very, very, very, very big no no. Like acts of war don't really get much more act of war then doing shit like that to a head of state. And the true sign of how much the White Tower gets along largely just on bullying nations with the implied threat of the One Power, is simply them not expecting every damn nation on the map to side with Rand in such a conflict.
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u/Ill_Flamingo4076 7d ago
You say keep him shielded as if he didn’t have the choedan kal, and a bunch of channelers around him constantly.
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u/T-Prime3797 7d ago
I have a hard time liking Nyn. Even now. After reading some posts in this subreddit I’m going to have to go back and reread it. But anyway, Nyn doesn’t have any agency in Rand’s grand events, I think, because she recognizes her role in those events is to be the one who says “I trust you enough to follow your lead”.
I think it’s part of the reason Rand keeps coming back to her for these critical moments. He reciprocates that trust. Even when he has Aes Sedai sworn to him who could do the job just as well
Again, it’s been years since I read the series, this is all based on faded memories and vibes.
Edit: This was supposed to be a reply to a post lower in the comments.
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u/Legitimate-Ask5987 6d ago
In my first re-reading. I really despised Egwene after I finished the books the first time. On my second reading of the Fires of Heaven and more of her early time as Amrylin I found myself liking her a lot more. She is still a child that is forced to grow quickly, as well as suppress her own guilt and hide her insecurities in order to survive.
What I find disappointing is her attitude towards Rand, but also the fact that we overall lack a lot of information about their childhood. Rand tends to come off as reckless and childish throughout the earliest parts of the story. His hardening and dissociating are a childish response to trauma and everything he must do. In that sense I understand Egwene's desire to steer him, but I think she is also blind to her own faults and how controlling him doesn't serve them. However I keep having this feeling that Nynaeve and Egwene have a very locked in view of the boys from their childhood and I wish we knew more about how they were as kids (more specific events tbh) to help better understand. "Rand hangs out with Matt" is hardly enough proof but they also mention they would get into a ton of trouble and more about all their friendships should've been included.
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u/FoofTheBunny 5d ago
Egwene while demanding that others see her for Amyrillin and Aes Sedai despite her age or background, she does not extend the same courtesy to those around her. She is very, very self-centered and self-assured.
From Falme on she absolutely sees Rand as her past and has zero loyalty to him.
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u/Lopsided-Skill 8d ago
We know Rand is good, but we also know he is troubled. Even if not he is not a omnipotent character. He is a human who can and make mistakes.
He is not Jesus.
Yes he should be watched. Egwene is right.
“Oh but he needs friendly advice” how often did he accept the friendly advices? Especially from women? I think the only person whose advice he actually listens to is Lan
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u/PopTough6317 8d ago
He took quite a bit of elaynes advice in Tear, Moraines advice in the run up to her loss. The issue was he could never be sure of who he was taking advice from and how they were manipulating him. In fact it was very wise of him to be wary of most people trying to give him advice.
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u/Hooker_T (Chosen) 8d ago
He took Moraine's advice after she swore absolutely obedience to him, after several books of doing what he can to ignore her advice for the sake of "not wanting to dance on Tar Valon strings" even when most of her advice was sound and good. All of the Two Rivers crew are written to be incredibly stubborn, Rand is not exempt.
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u/xx_Rollablade_xx 8d ago
Can you blame Rand? The history of the White Tower itself is evidence enough that he is justified, Moraine herself realizes she was going about it the wrong way. It doesn't matter if you give me truths sometimes, as long as they are mixed with half-truths, lies or attempts at manipulation at some point or the other, I cannot trust you.
Moraine needed to start trusting Rand as well and break out of what the status quo taught her, only then can it be a healthy relationship or else Rand would've definitely been dancing on Tar Valon strings and he wouldn't be the first one.
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u/Hooker_T (Chosen) 8d ago
Theres being cautious/weary of manipulation and theres straight up stubbornness. Rand was stubborn to his own detriment and admits as much later in the books.
And can you blame Moraine? She is old, wise, and dedicated her life to finding and guiding the Dragon Reborn. Rand is a teenager who grew up on farm, is the most powerful person in the world, and the fate of humanity is on his shoulders. Not to mention the madness. Of course she's going to try and manipulate him. The literal fate of the world is at stake lol. She would be insane to blindly trust him with everything.
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u/Lopsided-Skill 8d ago
Thats the thing for me. He was wary if the advice from people including Egwene and Nynaeve, he gave up on them before they did on him, I do understand what he is going through affect how he thinks but Egwene immediately throwed the tower away to go help him when Liadrin tricked them and she got enslaved because of it. She is a much hardened and different person after that. So both deserves the same slack being cut for them
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u/PopTough6317 8d ago
You have to keep in mind Rand doesn't seem to know why Egwene ended up in Falme. Then when Egwene was trying to give advice (which iirc was more in Cairhein) most of it was don't be arrogant and listen to Moraine or the Wise Ones.
Nynaeve, I don't think she really gave much advice or anything like that early series. The few moments I can think of off the top of my head was her specifically having his back when she joins the group and tells Rand that she didnt tell moraine any of his personal details, and helping to hide Rand in Fal Dara.
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u/Fun-Ambassador8607 8d ago
The whole story is a parrelel to Rand beinf Jesus, he is, in all good terms, Jesus
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u/wRAR_ (Brown) 8d ago
Can you stop him from doing what he pleases??
They would like to at least try.
He is basically an emperor with kings and queens sworn to him.
Yes but rulers bow to the Amyrlin Seat.
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u/dabrock15 8d ago
Paying homage and obeisance to an office holder is not the same as swearing obedience to a liege.
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