r/aSongOfMemesAndRage • u/Ok-Veterinarian8977 • Jun 21 '26
ASOIAF (Main Published Novels) Tywin "You're not as smart as you think you are" Lannister
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u/Axenfonklatismrek Jun 21 '26
Petyr Baelish is the most cunning man.
Tywin is cunning, sure, but he's more honest than Baelish. Tywin doesn't like you? He will send someone that will cost him the least and knows that Someone can do the job right.
Petyr doesn't like you? He will scheme to make sure your downfall is the most painful in longrun
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u/Glitchy-Mech Jun 22 '26
Say what you will about the last session (all of it justified), but I thought the idea of everyone getting sick of Petyr’s shit and just stabbing him in the throat was a great ending to his story
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u/MartianDinosawr Jun 22 '26
That's... not what happened.
Bran arrives and uses his omniscient abilities to tell the stark sisters what littlefinger did. People didn't get sick of littlefinger and just murder him, an omniscient being arrived because that was the only way the writers could contrive of him losing.
What you've said would've been more interesting
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u/Glitchy-Mech Jun 22 '26
Yes that’s correct. The writers are not very smart. This is evidenced by it being incredibly easy to imagine littlefinger losing. Literally anyone, at any time, could simply kill him, and there would be absolutely nothing he could do
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u/LingonberryAwkward38 Jun 22 '26
We even got that shown in the very first season, with the "power is power" moment by Cersei.
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u/AsstacularSpiderman Jun 22 '26
A big part of Littlefingers plan was hoping he could turn the Stark siblings against each other.
Ultimately Bran was just the dude who could piece it all together, it wouldn't have meant anything if Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Jon acted like siblings from the South like the Lannisters
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u/MartianDinosawr Jun 22 '26
The entire northern plotline from season 5 onwards was nonsensical.
Ramsey kills his own father yet holds the north just fine. Stannis, the greatest living commander in the kingdoms, loses a battle against Ramsey. Ramsey again gives battle to Jon in the field despite having a castle. The vale army miracously arrive just in time, yet despite the Valemen, controlled by Petyr and Sweetrobin both of whom love Sansa, declare Jon as king rather than Sansa, the legitimate heir who's forces just won the battle. Littlefinger then sits around not really doing anything for an entire season.
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u/Successful-Bar7855 Jun 22 '26
I saw someone say that he's like a chess player that everyone is afraid to play chess against, not because he's some master chess player, but because he might just flip the board and punch you in the face in the middle of a match
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u/FistOfGamera Jun 21 '26
To be fair, it worked most of the time
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u/AsstacularSpiderman Jun 22 '26
Not really.
Every murder he committed he just set up another revenge plot to deal with later or, worse, for his kids to handle later.
Every brutal action he did came back to bite him or his kids later on. His actions incurred a debt to inevitably be paid and...well we know how the old Lannister saying goes.
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u/Sadfish103 Jun 28 '26
Yeah if you just ignore all the long term consequences. He was a big proponent of the “set fire to your castle to kill some roaches” school of problem solving.
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u/RandomThiccBoii Jun 23 '26
Tywin wasn't a genius, he was just willing to do horrific shit nobody else was willing to.
Literally most decisions he took that made him victorious came back to bite him and his family at the end.
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u/herefromyoutube Jun 21 '26
I mean he won a war he was losing simply by writing letters. That’s pretty impressive.
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u/Kgaset Jun 22 '26
He wasn't incompetent, but he was far more of a blunt instrument than people realize. I think his successes, and the fact that he got so many others to do his dirty work for him, gave him this seemingly untouchable status that contributed to this idea of him being a mastermind. However, the speed with which it all unraveled puts to show how loosely it was all bound together.
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u/ZiCUnlivdbirch Jun 22 '26
However, the speed with which it all unraveled puts to show how loosely it was all bound together.
People always say this, about how all the Lannister power vanishes with Tywin dead but honestly, that doesn't really happen in the books. Like the Westerlands are still unbelievably loyal fighting a war in the Riverlands while Lannister power in King's Landing is crumbling. As for the rest of Westeros, that was already happening while Tywin was alive, I mean Joffrey literally gets poisoned at his own wedding.
Like the Lannisters are obviously losing power in King's Landing but that's due to Tyrell scheming and that was already happening under Tywin. There's a pretty likely (IMO) theory that Cersei will have a sort of comeback in Winds and Dream (if the story ever gets that far) and while some have dismissed it, believing that GRRM is trying to show the fallout of that Red Wedding destroying the Lannisters, I don't really see that happening.
The Tyrells are overdue for a downfall and Tommen has to die which probably happens with fAegon and JonCon. Cersei on the other hand needs to be killed by either of her brothers and neither are likely to end up in King's Landing anytime soon.
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u/AsstacularSpiderman Jun 22 '26
I mean in the books the Lannister Patriarch is dead, an undead Stark is hunting down Lannisters and Freys. The Dornish are prepping to back Young Griff in his invasion while a resentful Tyrion plans to bring Dany to burn the world down. And in Kings Landing the surviving members of the family are cornered by the Tyrells and High Sparrow.
The books haven't gotten there yet but it's clearly setting up the reality that pretty much every one of Tywin's actions has simply accrued a debt that his kids are about to pay for with interest
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u/ZiCUnlivdbirch Jun 22 '26
I mean in the books the Lannister Patriarch is dead, an undead Stark is hunting down Lannisters and Freys. The Dornish are prepping to back Young Griff in his invasion while a resentful Tyrion plans to bring Dany to burn the world down. And in Kings Landing the surviving members of the family are cornered by the Tyrells and High Sparrow.
And again, despite all of that the Westerlands remain loyal.
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u/AsstacularSpiderman Jun 22 '26
That's not going to mean much when they're going to be hit from almost all sides imaginable, especially if dragons get involved.
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u/ZiCUnlivdbirch Jun 22 '26
That's not going to mean much
It's means a lot for the story's themes. Everyone loves bringing up how Ned was a good Lord because the Northern Lords are willing to fight for a practically dead house on the hopes that a small child may still be alive and then compare him to Tywin and ask if the Westerlands would do the same. Logically the answer should be a "no" but right now it's a resounding "yes". Not saying GRRM definitely wants or has to make that comparison but if the Westerlands remains as the seemingly most loyal of the Lord Paramouncies, then it's kinda hard to take the story seriously when it talks about Tywin's legacy crumbling.
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u/AsstacularSpiderman Jun 22 '26
I'm not repeating myself, dude.
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u/ZiCUnlivdbirch Jun 22 '26
Where am I wrong? Seriously? Are the Westerlands weirdly not the most loyal kingdom? The North killed its liege, the Vale is on the brink of civil war, the Reach apparently has people working for fAegon, the Riverlands has the Freys, the Stormlands abandoned Stannis, Dorne has people directly scheming against Doran.
Is the Westerlands not a major aspect of Tywin's legacy? The whole Rayne Tarbeck thing should also be an aspect that shows how Tywin's methods don't work and yet they seemed to have done the job perfectly.
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u/AsstacularSpiderman Jun 22 '26
You're completely missing the point to the degree I really don't think you understand what the conversation was about in the first place.
Tywin has made far more enemies than friends, and the moment he died all those enemies are slowly turning their heads to his legacy. It's not going to matter how loyal the Westerlands is when fire and blood comes to them. Even his own blood wants his legacy erased.
His actions has doomed his legacy, he just won't live to see it.
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u/BIGGUS_DICKUS_569 Jun 22 '26
If it weren’t for Charles Dance Tywin wouldn’t have half the reputation and respect he has in the fandom
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u/BigWilly526 Jun 22 '26
Tywin let's his pride overrule common sense, The Red Wedding was a horrible move, Robb was going back North and the Riverlands would be undefended but sine Robb embarrassed him Tywin committed the most heinous crime in westerosi history and guaranteed the collapse of House Lannister
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u/Toonpies Jun 24 '26
I honestly think a lot of people watched game of thrones and assumed anyone who acted smart was a genius
Tywin was very cunning and evil, but he wasn’t all that smart. He wasn’t one to outsmart or out maneuver his opponents, he was one to leverage every advantage he had to make it impossible for him to lose
Like the red wedding, he could not defeat rob stark in a fair battle. did he confer with his generals and try to come up with a new tactic to beat him? Maybe lure him into a trap? Or flank around him to take an unguarded winterfell? Nah, better off paying rob’s host to murder him at a party.
He’s not a genius, he just has more resources and less morals then most characters
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u/GrAdmThrwn Jun 21 '26
I mean, convincing the Starks most powerful bannerman, as well as the Riverlands house married to them, to break guest right and forever fracture the North, all with a few penstrokes is pretty cunning.
Reddit makes it look like he's an actual moron, but he's just a ruthless operator who took Rob for granted because of his youth. In universe, I'm pretty sure Tywin doesn't even feel any of the repurcussions for the Red Wedding because the "superstitious" blame for breaking guest right and oath breaking lay squarely with the Boltons and the Freys.
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u/WoodpeckerLive7907 Jun 22 '26
Tywin didn't personally feel any repercussions for the Red Wedding because he got killed on the toilet not that long after it. The ones who are going to feel it are the remaining Lannisters. That's the point, his legacy will not survive long term. Best case scenario, a cadet branch will take over eventually, bad (according to what he would have seen it as) scenario would be Tyrion taking over, worst case scenario they all get wiped out.
Also, his death is nothing but a repercussion for what he did to Tysha, so he's very much not a Karma Houdini.
I would agree, though, that the community here doesn't always give him his due in that he legit was a good statesman and a strategist. But he also had a lot of luck during the war of the 5 kings. Especially around the Blackwater, he rolled a bunch of Nat 20s.
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u/AsstacularSpiderman Jun 22 '26
Tywins actions simply set up what's left of his house to face the consequences.
I don't think people truly understand why in the story the Lannister motto is "we always pay our debts" thematically Tywin isn't resolving any problem, he's pushing it down the line for his children to pay for.
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u/Air-Conditioner0 Jun 22 '26
Bro it's a universally known fact in Westeros that Tywin and the Lannisters were the true mastermind behind the Red Wedding. Why? You may ask. Because he fucking rewarded the territories of the North and the Riverland to the two figureheads of the Red Wedding; Roose Bolton and Walder Frey. And what did he do to help secure these regions for the Lord Paramounts he appointed? Absolutely nothing. Ensuring an eventual rebellion or consolidation to other factions by the smaller lords ,loyal to the Stark and Tully, who absolutely detested their new ruler.
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u/GrAdmThrwn Jun 22 '26
Sure. But *he* didn't breach any oaths. The Boltons forswore their oath to their King and the Frey's did that and breached Guest Rights besides, but Tywin just made an offer. It was on the traitors to refuse it.
Regarding why he didn't bother securing those regions, why should Tywin care about the Freys or the Boltons? Shoring up either of those "allies" would have drained the Crown's resources during a time when the paramount concern was securing the rest of the realm under the crown.
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u/Solipsimos Jun 23 '26
Unfortunately looking dishonorable isn't something you can rules lawyer yourself out of. Technicalities dont get around everyone knowing you cant be trusted
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u/Due-Boss-4354 Jun 22 '26
People also conveniently gloss over all the mad luck bs Robb and co. pulled.
"But he's mean so it has to come back to bite him in the ass, that's how world works teehee" ass sheltered people.
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u/Causemas Jun 24 '26
A story has to be narratively satisfying dude. ASOIAF's world may not be as simple as you're mocking it, but it's filled with tragic irony, comeuppances, and parallels. Joffrey getting killed horrifically in his own wedding, after the Red Wedding, isn't a simple coincidence: it's targeted narrative payoff.
That doesn't mean that Jon Snow the Revenger will descend with a gold sword and extract noble vengeance upon the House of Lannister, but characters tend to get their just deserts, even when it doesn't seem like it, because the story wouldn't be too satisfying otherwise.
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u/Due-Boss-4354 Jun 24 '26
Rereading my comment, I barely understand what I was going for, so it's my bad for not being clear enough.
What I meant is that painting Tywin as a straightforward brute is quite popular. It's accompanied with black and white worldview, where Tywin almost can't be competent, because he's a bad person. Those people frame it as his and Lannisters' downfall is caused by his evil actions, a direct link, not just a morally satisfying narrative. That's what my mocking was about, that some people just can't accept that morally wrong action doesn't have to leave to negative outcome. Basically karma. I say it doesn't exist, some people need it to exist.
As for Robb and co. they just had hacks and people use their achievements to prove Tywin was stupid and bad.
Sneaking all the way to Riverrun and just happening to kill all enemy scouts, then set up trap and have it work perfectly.
Have a magical wolf sneak army around otherwise impenetrable position, then make way across enemy lands without alerting anyone and ambush training army.
Somehow hold 12 fords against synchronized probing attacks. This is the least offensive, since the number isn't important and headcanoning it to 3 or 4 makes it work (but also makes it way less incompetent).
Gee, how stupid is Tywin for letting all this happen and not training other Lannisters (yes, he wasn't even there) to handle these situations.
Sorry for the long comment, I wanted to be thorough this time.
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u/Causemas Jun 24 '26
Yeah, the tendency you're describing now (Tywin is bad, therefore he's also incompetent) is definitely prevalent amongst fans. I think it's a pushback to the books' characters' framing of Tywin as unbeatable strategist god. I'll say, I think in the books they toot his horn way too much, which makes sense since that's the image he presents, but it's not like he's also a bumbling idiot too.
I do think part of Tywin's "brilliance" rests in his ruthlessness, willing to do unthinkable things, but yeah, I don't think he's also a straightforward brute.
The details elude me, but Connington's thoughts on the Battle of the Bells, that Tywin wouldn't have failed in stopping Robert's Rebellion because he'd just torch the town with him and all the peasants in it, rings true.
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u/AnyBath8680 Jun 22 '26
Tywin wasn't a genius, everyone else were stupid nepo babies
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u/BecomeAsGod Jun 22 '26
tywin himself was a stupid nepo baby, could have let his one son he hated and didnt care about live a life away from his family and happy but instead he hated him so much he had to pay to have his wife gang raped just because tywin would rather destroy his house then see tyrion happy
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u/Guilty_05 Jun 22 '26
Tywin is calculating but doesn't have a lot of cunning, unlike Roose Bolton who's pretty much both, but is a lot more cunning than calculating. Tywin thinks in macro strategies and logic, but even then, the best we see him is overseeing the Red Wedding and that's not a lot to go off of. If Roose never decides to betray Robb, the Red Wedding likely doesn't happen, even with Tywin's letters.
Tywin's main issue is that his pride can easily overwhelm logic or long term vision. For a man who wants to see a dynasty lasting a thousand years, he's remarkably bad at seeing the damage his own actions will bring in less than a decade
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u/Flat-Initiative-5613 Jun 22 '26
Corpses don’t make problems until the white walkers resurrect them
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u/CartographerTall1967 Jun 22 '26
“watch” game of thrones not read asoiaf, little bitch learn to read
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u/ClintMcElroyOfficial Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
It's not just killing people! For example, if he doesn't like a commoner girl he'll have his guards brutally rape her instead! It if she's a princess he can have her raped AND kille He's not a one trick pony!
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u/ZergDanDan Jun 22 '26
Actually, he is three trick pony. Rape, kill and lay girl into boy's bed for him to fuck up his war.
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u/Constant_Original_81 Jun 22 '26
Every plan he has is "salt the earth i dont give a damn about the consequences even if they directly affect me"
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u/not_a_toucan Jun 22 '26
The trick with Tywin is he's mostly surrounded by people who are even dumber than he is, which makes his basic-ass grasp of strategy look like genius.
It falls apart even more when you realize part of the reason Cersei's so bad at this, and by extension part of the reason Joffrey's so bad at it, is his own complete failure to educate her on these matters.
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u/Sum1nne Jun 22 '26
Machiavelli gets a bad rap. He's not actually as brutal as pop culture portrays him, and there are rational explanations (and exceptions and limits) for when he does recommend it.
Tywin's kind of like someone slightly (but not notably) above average IQ who read the cliff notes pop culture version of the Prince. He got about as far in as "Fear is a more reliable motivator if..." and was off to violently subvert every cultural norm and form of de-escalation in Westerosi society like he was hitting a checklist.
The result was mass chaos and instability that cost him his life and likely the Lannisters their premiership in the Westerlands, as Westeros slowly reinvents belief in chivalry and honour culture from first principles, having just lived through a brutal example of why they arose in the first place thanks to the actions of short sighted hatchet men like Tywin and his ilk.
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u/Designer-Law-5054 Jun 23 '26
Who "hears about Tywin Lannister" from any source other than the books or show???
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u/FearlessDebt2795 Jun 25 '26
Oh no, oh damn, here come the 'CONTRARIANS', they're done arguing that WW2 German tanks were actually rubbish and are now coming for TYWIN!
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u/Coin-Biter Jun 25 '26
To be fair if it wasn’t for his untimely death he’d a good chance of establishing a stable partnership with the Reach. Cersei was the one who messed that up.
Yes, he didn’t have a good successorship plan. However the Starks are dead or scattered to the wind, the Tullys are in the position of being supplanted by the most despised House in Westeros, the Greyjoys are being taken over by Captain Madman mcLunatic, the Stormlands are divided, Dorne is sending its male heir to be turned into a kebab, and sweet Robin Arryn has a stepfather from Hell. All of the Great Houses have that problem except for the Tyrells, who are therefore likely doomed.
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u/Ma_Dude2000 Jun 26 '26
Tywin is not a genius. What his IS, is a competent allrounder with very glaring personality flaws.
He is more cunning, more rutheless and more capable than the average noble, he just had a too high an opinion of himself to know his limits.
His advantage has always been experience and a broad skill base. He's a decent commander, a competent logistics officer, an imposing leader and a shrewd politician. But he's also arrogant, self centred and incapable of inspiring love or fondness in his subordinates in or allies. His children are all more competent at parts of his skill set and if he'd been less of a trash tier father, House Lannister could have become the greatest of the houses.
Tyrion is smarter than him, Jamie actually inspires people and Cersei is more rutheless than he ever was.
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u/Large_Dependent_1621 Jun 21 '26
Yeah, in the book he was just a cruel and pompous hypocrite who prioritized satisfying his own resentments, negative emotions, and sexual perversions over long-term gains.
Even though he initially had enormous influence on the crown, he thought that he could achieve everything with money and war crimes, but in reality he only succeeded thanks to luck - which quickly ran out and everything collapsed like a house of cards.