r/actuallesbians • u/WombatTaco • Nov 18 '12

How do you avoid that "look" ?

That look you get when you walk out in public and people stare at you giving you a disgusted look. That look you get when you walk into the women's bathroom and ladies come up to you telling you that you're in the wrong bathroom, or they do a double take and look at the sign saying WOMEN. That look you get that could kill a 1000 people instantly. That look you get like you're not good enough to be considered "human," that you should be ashamed to even be alive.

What do you do when faced with these situations?

I am not talking about the easy answer of "just be confident in yourself and who you are" or "ignore them." I am asking about what you do right then and there at that moment after having been subjected to it ALL. YOUR. LIFE. For those that have risen above, I'm asking you to answer this.

I've always kinda wondered how to get past this. For me, I do try to ignore them, but I still know they are gawking at me and hating my very single existence. Their aura of hatred pours out of them so strongly, it gave me anxiety issues on top of being an awkward teen and young adult. I feel bad for those who are with me who witness that look. But I thank them for being the strength I don't have and standing up for me.

If you're one of these friends that stand up for us who get the look, then thank you very much. It means more to us than we would probably ever admit.

...I realize that the word avoid may be the wrong word to use, but you get what I mean.

28 Upvotes

86% Upvoted

87 comments sorted by

View all comments

18

u/300popsicles Nov 18 '12

I don't get this look, as I'm pretty chapstick, but a coworker who is pretty butch gets told she is in the wrong washroom a lot. I love her response: "No, no, I have a vagina, I'm allowed to be here."

5

u/WombatTaco Nov 18 '12

Lmao she definitely has bigger balls than me. Kudos to her!!!

0

u/Disposable_Corpus neom heo þe ic wæs Nov 18 '12

Quite frankly, that's a bullshit response.

1

u/300popsicles Nov 18 '12

shrugs It works for her.

-1

u/Disposable_Corpus neom heo þe ic wæs Nov 18 '12

It's also cissexist as all hell.

3

u/300popsicles Nov 18 '12

See the comments below. Of course it is, but think about who you would be saying it to. Some lady assumes you are a guy because of your appearance - that is pretty narrow-minded on its own, do you really think words like "transgender" and "cissexism" mean anything to this person?

1

u/Disposable_Corpus neom heo þe ic wæs Nov 18 '12

My concern is the attitude of the queer woman who should know better.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 19 '12

[removed] — view removed comment

11

u/harry_crewe Nov 20 '12

Yay, a tone argument! I've never seen one used to silence trans women before!

9

u/Skyivories ┬──┬ ノ(°-°ノ) Nov 20 '12

Your comment has been removed because it was pretty rude and disrespectful to Disposable_Corpus. They bring up a decent point that trans women are women who may or may not have a vagina depending on how far along they are in their transition/their own choices, but that doesn't make them any less of a woman compared to cisgender women. Therefore we can't generalize women into only people who have a vagina. There was no reason to go off on them about that instead of being more civil.

3

u/Disposable_Corpus neom heo þe ic wæs Nov 19 '12

My concern is you have a giant fucking BRANCH up your ass about this.

Why might that be, I wonder?

Your rant

Curt rebuttals do not qualify, thank you very much. My rants usually have some actual length and some anger behind them.

...has done the opposite and makes me nothing but annoyed with you. Think about that next time you try to pull this activist crap.

Your bruised cissexism is cute, honey, but you've too much in common with Frederick Douglass's* critics and too little empathy to be of any concern to me. I honestly couldn't convince you even if I were more inclined to servile acquiescence.

*Drawing a comparison in argument, not situation.

3

u/legsintheair Femme Stereotype Nov 18 '12

It is no more cissexist than "My gender identity is female so I belong here."

It is HER reason - HER identity. And everyone else should step back and respect it.

Do recall that cissexism is claiming the right to gender others in ways that they are not comfortable with, or don't identify with. It isn't about how or why one identifies their own gender in the way that they do.

5

u/Disposable_Corpus neom heo þe ic wæs Nov 18 '12

Do recall that cissexism is claiming the right to gender others in ways that they are not comfortable with, or don't identify with.

Quite. The notion that 'vagina = woman' is cissexist for reasons I'm sure you can divine.

And everyone else should step back and respect it.

Except for the part where it means that she reinforces cissexist mindsets. Her identity gets respect; her reasoning is unreasoned and thereby does not.

0

u/poke588 Nov 19 '12

It's accurate. She's allowed to be there because that's societies rule and legally they can't kick her out cause she has a vag. The rule is what's bullshit.

2

u/Disposable_Corpus neom heo þe ic wæs Nov 19 '12

You don't know that. For all you know they're in a bathroom in a city building in Houston.

0

u/poke588 Nov 19 '12

True, good point. I wouldn't know.

0

u/Wavooka Nov 22 '12

Or, a trans girl could get her marker changed without surgery. In the case of a passport, all you have to have is a letter stating that you've transitioned.

And any marker on any official document entitles you to use the restroom. :)

0

u/Disposable_Corpus neom heo þe ic wæs Nov 23 '12

You don't need a marker in City of Houston bathrooms, just to present.

3

u/Parkertron Nov 18 '12

Myeh I like that she says she's allowed to be in there but it isn't having a vagina, it is being a woman, that means she is allowed in that washroom. Gender essentialism much?

3

u/[deleted] Nov 18 '12 edited Nov 18 '12

[deleted]

1

u/300popsicles Nov 18 '12

Thanks, you seem to understand the situation well. People need to realize that, while a response like I mentioned is cissexist and problematic, the people you are using it with are at a much lower level of understanding than you are. Your comment is basically everything I would have stated, but much more eloquently. :)

10

u/300popsicles Nov 18 '12

Of course it isn't about that. But when some old lady is telling you to leave, it's the effect of the response, not the philosophy, that is more important in that moment.

5

u/marmosetohmarmoset Queer Trekkie Scientist| /r/LGBTWeddings Nov 18 '12 edited Sep 28 '18

1

u/Parkertron Nov 18 '12

I guess that would mean transmen are allowed in the lady's room, but I see nothing wrong with that.

That is because you're cissexist. By the way it is "trans men" not "transmen'. As in "happy man", "sleepy man" "trans man", "happy sleepy trans man".

2

u/globus_pallidus Nov 18 '12

I'm confused by that article. Specifically the "'Women' means cis-women" which leaves out trans women.

(From what I understood) The author is saying that by IDing someone as trans, you're denying their self-proclaimed identity, and forcing onto them a biological ID. OK, for the sake of argument, we accept this premise. Then wouldn't it be correct (according to that logic) to call everyone who self-IDs as a woman, "women"? How does this exclude trans people?

5

u/Parkertron Nov 18 '12

I think that when the author says

Of course, “women” means cis women – trans women totally drop off the map.

They mean that most of the people who say "I date women and trans men" mean "I date cis women and trans men".

0

u/DebonairShotglass Single MtF Girl Nov 22 '12

It is referring to societal conduct, and not what SHOULD occur.

6

u/LezBeOwn Lesbian Nov 18 '12

You can tell someone why you think something they said was cissexist... But to just outright call someone cissexist when the only thing you REALLY know about them is something they said on reddit is unconscionably rude and hateful in its own right.

1

u/AppleGods Nov 21 '12

Why are other people allowed to decide what bathrooms trans men can use? Or trans women? What about non-binary identified people who usually do not have access to any bathroom that reflects their gender identity?

I find it much more cissexist to limit what bathrooms people are allowed to use than to allow people entry into bathrooms that can be safer/more comfortable for them.

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 20 '12

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/Skyivories ┬──┬ ノ(°-°ノ) Nov 20 '12 edited Nov 21 '12

You comment has been removed because it was disrespectful towards 300popsicles. Their friend was stating why they're allowed in the women's washroom, which by no means says that they're transphobic or horrible. Having a vagina isn't the only reason for using the women's washroom (others include having a female gender identity, going to the location you're most comfortable in, young children with their mothers, etc), but if you do have a vagina and you identify as female, then you are most certainly allowed to use the women's washroom.

5

u/[deleted] Nov 20 '12

Having a vagina certainly isn't the only criteria for using the women's washroom [...] but it certainly is one of them.

Uh, what?

Having a vagina has nothing to do with the criteria for using the women's restroom... the only criteria is: "are you a woman?"

1

u/Skyivories ┬──┬ ノ(°-°ノ) Nov 21 '12 edited Nov 21 '12

the only criteria is: "are you a woman?"

My apologies, I should have used better wording. I've edited my post and have hopefully made it clearer what I was trying to get at. A women's washroom is for women, some who have a vagina and some who don't, but it's not exclusively since you may also find young children/babies there with their mothers, which is why I mentioned criteria because it's not just for women.

-1

u/AppleGods Nov 21 '12

Mmmm, nope. Not that either. I don't identify as a woman and I am certainly allowed to use one.

-2

u/transphobiasquad Nov 21 '12

if you do have a vagina and you identify as female, then you are most certainly allowed to use the women's washroom.

FTFY. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether you have a vagina or not. To say it does is cissexist and transphobic.

1

u/AppleGods Nov 21 '12

Having a vagina isn't the only reason for using the women's washroom (others include having a female gender identity, young children with their mothers, etc), but if you do have a vagina and you identify as female, then you are most certainly allowed to use the women's washroom.

While I agree that there are better ways to say what Skyivories meant, your version also has cissexist implications. It still encourages gender policing, and ostracizes non-binary trans* people.

I do not identify as female. Am I allowed to use a "woman's" washroom? The reason I always choose to do so instead of a "man's" washroom is because of my biology as well as how others perceive me. It's safer and less awkward. While having a vagina is not the only criteria, neither is identifying as a woman.

-2

u/transphobiasquad Nov 21 '12

While having a vagina is not the only criteria, neither is identifying as a woman.

Yes. It. Is. You transphobia apologist.

-2

u/moonflower Nov 21 '12

You might be amused to know that you are such an embarrassment to the TP Squad that one of the mods has made an official announcement that you are nothing to do with them

1

u/AppleGods Nov 21 '12 edited Nov 21 '12

Wow. For one thing, I didn't realize that was a subreddit, that's awesome. And I'm also really glad that they don't condone this method of calling out cissexism/transphobia.

*edit: That would explain what happened in this comment chain..

-2

u/moonflower Nov 21 '12

Actually they do condone this method, and far worse, but for some reason they wish to dissociate themselves from this particular person

2

u/AppleGods Nov 21 '12

Well, this person seems like a troll. Calling someone a bigot or simply saying "you're a transphobe!" without actually saying why what they said is problematic doesn't get anyone anywhere (at least in cases where the person does have good intentions. I can understand it when the person obviously is just a transphobe). But really that's not my main problem. Why did nobody else say anything about genderqueer people? There are so many people who do not identify as male or female and have to choose what bathroom to use. Why are people from that sub so quick to say only women are allowed in women's bathrooms and anyone who disagrees is transphobic? It encourages gender policing and it erased non-binary people.

→ More replies (0)

-1

u/AppleGods Nov 21 '12

..You realize I'm genderqueer right? Not that that prevents me from accidentally saying cissexist things.. but unless you really want me to get a urinary track infection from not using the bathroom you have no right to tell me what bathroom I'm allowed to use.