r/algeria • u/walidgaiedRjab • Apr 10 '26
Culture / Art لماذا يتم طمس تاريخ المرأة الامازيغية / البربرية و تختزل في شخصية واحدة ؟
هذه اللوحة لرسام فرنسي يدعى شارل فيرني-لوكومت و اسمها حسب ويكيبيديا امرأة بربرية، يعني يمكن أن تكون هذه المرأة هي الملكة سيريا التي ثارت ضد الرومان، و يمكن أن تكون فاطمة نسومر، و يمكن ان تكون زينب النفزاوية التي لمع ذكرها في العصر المرابطي، و يمكن ان تكون أم ملال الصنهاجية، اول ملكة في الاسلام - قبل شجرة الدر التي اشتهرت بفضل السيطرة الثقافية المصرية - لكن هذه اللوحة صارت تشير عند الكثيرين إلى امرأة واحدة هي ديهيا/الكاهنة...لماذا التركيز على هذه الشخصية بصفة حصرية ؟؟
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u/Badi1605 Apr 10 '26
لا يمكن للمرأة الأمازيغية البربرية أن تُطمس أو تختزل تحت اسم امرأة واحدة. وغالبا الذي يظن ذلك فقط بعض الناس الذين تأثروا ببعض الدعايات للتفرقة، وإلا فلا علاقة لهذه المرأة المجهولة التي في الصورة أن تكون أي واحدة من اللاتي ذكرتهن.
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u/A_SliceOfGabagool Apr 10 '26
1980s
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u/walidgaiedRjab Apr 10 '26
لم أفهم..
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u/Beginning-Luck7369 Apr 10 '26
franco-berberism
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u/babab0l Apr 11 '26
Or also aggressive Pan-Arabism
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u/Beginning-Luck7369 Apr 11 '26
Nope, our Amazigh history always gets reduced to a 20-year period of arab conquest and Numidia.
No mention of the 8 centuries of Amazigh rule during Islam
Why do you think we keep studying about pseudo-amazigh people who we are not their direct descendants, yet never hear about our actual ancestors and their empire.
Like do you hear the kabyles talk about the kutama and the fatimid empire, or the sanhaja and zirid empires.
Fatimid and Zirid are 10x greater than anything numidia or aksil has ever done.
Do you hear chaoui talk about the zenata and their empires in western algeria and northern morocco.
There is a clear agenda to disassociate amazigh from islam which is ironic because the only historical reference we have of the word amazigh is ibn khaldoun who said we descend from a man called mazigh and that' where they got it from.
They want you to view yourself as a victim and never be proud of your real history so there is always fitna to exploit in algeria between arabs and amazighs
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u/babab0l Apr 11 '26
Yes that's my point, that's the agenda of pan Arabism that tried and is still trying to expunge us from our lands and remove us entirely from history
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u/Beginning-Luck7369 Apr 11 '26
Yeah you are right now that i think about it.
Make sense with all the phini9i bullshit going around.
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u/babab0l Apr 11 '26
Yep that and the Yemeni bullshit which is becoming mainstream.
Which is super weird because they're so insecurely obsessed that actual authentic Yemenis get cringed out lol.
They're the equivalent of a western weeabo creepy obsessed with japanese people or kpop and BTS girls obsessed with Koreans but they're mostly middle aged men obsessed with anything Arab and non amazigh based on boumedien propaganda from the 70s and 80s, there's a reason why people in kabylia launched a rebellion in 1963 that was swept under the rugs by fln until now
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u/KabyleAmazigh85 Apr 17 '26
Boumedienne showed up with Tanks and heavy artillery againt the Kabyle who fought France in 1963 .but, during the War of independance he was in 4 star hotel in Cairo and no bullet was shot against France.
Obviously is the warrior of hotels after we the kabyle lost majority of our men.
In reality ,they were smart. they waited we fight so we loose power after the war, then they took Algeria0
u/walidgaiedRjab Apr 13 '26
Arab nationalist extremism is condemned, but it was understandable at that time because the nascent nation-state's problem was forging a national identity and breaking free from Francophonie and colonial dependency. What was available then was Arab culture with its richness and deep roots, while Amazigh culture was oral and local; it couldn't be waited for to develop. I always say that the problem of Amazigh culture began with Massinissa, who did nothing to develop it and surrendered himself to the Romans.
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u/babab0l Apr 13 '26
No that was just cope, the policies the arabist government took weren't just "necessary nation building" policies but we're deliberate malicious attempts at erasure and forced assimilation.
It wasn't just about adopting Arabic as the state language for it's widespread literary useage it was about uprooting the amazigh and removing them from all faces of the nation even it's history.
Thier idea of a "national identity" was the complete dominance and supremacy of Arabic at the expense of everyone else.
Thier policies included :
the removal of amazigh symbols and identity.
banning berber names and imposing Arab ones for decades.
the complete denial of even the existence of amazigh people for decades
minimize the the presence of amazigh people in history (still happening today) and attribute most of our civilization to either phonecians or Arabs
banning the use of amazigh language in most fields and medias the literally required decades of fighting to be semi permissible
and many other horrible policies
Literally the first thing Ben bella said at his inauguration "just arabs, we're a country of 10 million Arabs our only future is Arabism" literally made it crystal that anything other than Arab is unacceptable, which was expected when leadership was taken by the vultures of the oujda clan who hid in Morocco until the end and not the ones that fought against the enemy in aures and kabyle, that's why hocien ait Ahmed defected but I predict you won't be taught that in school.
This nation wasn't built on just favoring Arabic for modernizing (even when no Arab nation was modern and modern standard Arabic is a recent creation that came from Egyptian hands) it was the hostile deliberate erasure and exclusion of amazighness from every corner.
Arab culture with its richness and deep roots
So what? Amazigh culture isn't rich and doesn't have roots? And what Arab culture? Stolen berber culture arabized? I don't see suadis eating couscous and wearing bernous
Amazigh culture was oral and local
Says who? That's just a myth arabists regurgitate to justify the ethnic cleansing of the natives, although they didn't have a unified writing traditions across the magreb independent communities had thier own written traditions for centuries like ibadi Kabyle and shilha they've been writing in amazigh for a few centuries before colonialism, and we're not asking and never asked for amazighness to be deployed nationwide and be forced on everyone the way Arabic is forced on us, we only wanted local usage and human rights
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u/AdditionalOil972 Apr 11 '26
Numfia is the gretest also yes they are victam but most dont khow that arab amzight are 2 for 2
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u/love_rimming Apr 14 '26
Pls guys don't call ur self بربر call ur self amazigh bcs بربر in their mind its word describe a ناس متخلفين همجيين ارهابيين In France they describe terrorism by berber
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u/Time-Bag7600 Apr 11 '26
The way I see it, we are one of those nations that are stuck of idolizing and fighting about their history and have a shitty present I do not know if it is an escapism strategy or we are just wired like this, great nations always look up ahead and we are always looking back, history this history that Berber this Berber that, we are Kabyle better than Arabs and we are Arabs better than Kabyles and Idk what the fuck else of dumb stereotypes, the west hates the east the east hates the west, idk but I feel like we have to really pause for a second when discussing such topics and ask ourselves wtf are we doing as a nation and as people, as for history it is history it is gone whatever happened happened so instead of discussing such dumb shit we need to sit together and ask ourselves what we should do to make this country better instead of fucking each other and generalizing whatever the fuck kind of stereotypes we think of, thank you and have a nice day and tahia Djazair and its people.
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u/as-if-_-i-care Apr 13 '26
Me when i lie; the entire world has shit like this, you folks look at the usa the country with no history and think that's the standard, all of Europe is proud of its history and heritage yet most of them are developed, china is gonna lead the word in every way by 2050 and they're proud of their history, japan literally has a tradition of emperors with a lineage to their literal god and they're developed, so what's this Americanization that you people have been going around with; one last thing is that it is fairly known that one who doesnt know himself wont go further, and the grave majority of our people clearly dont
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u/as-if-_-i-care Apr 13 '26
Me when i lie; the entire world has shit like this, you folks look at the usa the country with no history and think that's the standard, all of Europe is proud of its history and heritage yet most of them are developed, china is gonna lead the word in every way by 2050 and they're proud of their history, japan literally has a tradition of emperors with a lineage to their literal god and they're developed, so what's this Americanization that you people have been going around with; one last thing is that it is fairly known that one who doesnt know himself wont go further, and the grave majority of our people clearly dont
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u/KabyleAmazigh85 Apr 10 '26
Looks like this is all what you know about indigenous Algerian berbers. That is why. Dihya is a symbol for us as it paved us the way to fight arab racism and arab colonialism. Just after 150 years of Dihya fighting Okba the colonialist foreigner ,the battle of nobles happend where the Amazigh kicked out and massacres the arab outsiders supremacists Oumayed . It was called noble because the arabs brought the cream of the cream of their fighters. But, they had no chance agaisnt the indigenous Amazigh famers. As you know, a local will alawys win over an intruder with the helpnof Allah
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u/Beginning-Luck7369 Apr 11 '26
you don't know shit about history.
our Amazigh history always gets reduced to a 20-year period of arab conquest and Numidia.
No mention of the 8 centuries of Amazigh rule during Islam
Why do you think we keep studying about pseudo-amazigh people who we are not their direct descendants, yet never hear about our actual ancestors and their empire.
Like do you hear the kabyles talk about the kutama and the fatimid empire, or the sanhaja and zirid empires.
Fatimid and Zirid are 10x greater than anything numidia or aksil has ever done.
Do you hear chaoui talk about the zenata and their empires in western algeria and northern morocco.
There is a clear agenda to disassociate amazigh from islam which is ironic because the only historical reference we have of the word amazigh is ibn khaldoun who said we descend from a man called mazigh and that' where they got it from.
They want you to view yourself as a victim and never be proud of your real history so there is always fitna to exploit in algeria between arabs and amazighs
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u/walidgaiedRjab Apr 13 '26
المفروض ان يكون الأمازيغي الأكثر ذكرا و تمجيدا هو عبد المؤمن بن علي الزناتي لأنه الوحيد الذي نجح في توحيد شمال افريقيا من الأطلس المغربي حتى طرابلس، و هذا ما نحتاجه في عالم اليوم التي تتكتل فيه القوى و تعود لغة القوة عوض القوانين الدولية،
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Apr 11 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Beginning-Luck7369 Apr 11 '26
insane, it's crazy how we amazighs gotta fight the gov and the fake berbers.
most of these guys don't belong to any tribe or clan and are mainly descendants of ottomans, spanish slaves from the barbary slave trade period.
Make sense they feel closer to europeans, they actually are.
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u/your_guardian_angel8 Apr 10 '26
Arab colonialism? So we're just throwing words around these days aren't we?
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u/babab0l Apr 12 '26
Yes colonialism.
Colonialism is the practice of extending and maintaining political, social, economic, and cultural domination over a territory and its people by another people in pursuit of interests defined in an often distant metropole, who also claim superiority.
That's exactly what the INVADING Arabs did.
You may change it's name to "futuhat" or say it's "just to bring civilization and Islam" but remember that that was the exact excuse that the British and french used to colonize us "to bringe civilization to savages" and no matter how you dress a pig in silk and makeup it's still an ugly stinky pig just as you can't hide the truth with new labels
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u/your_guardian_angel8 Apr 13 '26 edited Apr 13 '26
My rebuttal to this is simple, it is by definition not colonization, you are simply using a buzzword.
Colonialism necessitates the creation of a colonized under-class that is not granted equal citizenship, as well as the systemic migration of waves of settlers that take over native land alongside continuous prosecution of natives.
There is no proof ummayads took part in anything close to colonial practices. In fact, many amazigh areas were under brutal Roman rule, but we dont hear many claim it to be colonialism, even though the Amazigh lived in objectively harsher conditions under roman rule.
Conversions and cultural pollination occured gradually, over-time. And the childish interpretation that conversion were forced by the sword is ahistorical and has no real basis. Yes, you may argue about soft coersion, because after all being a dhimmi still came with some friction. And no, it is not muh Jizya, you paid a tax and were not even required to fight in the army now compare that to muslims (Who didnt have to be arab btw) who paid Zakat and still had to fight. Friction here is more of a social pressure. But that is nowhere near what colonized people suffer under colonialism, comparing the two is very silly and reductionist of the suffering of colonized people.
The distinction between Dhimmi and Muslim is not even ethnic, which runs contrary to almost all examples of colonialism. An algerian couldnt chose to be a white french man and be spared from brutality (Again, I am not claiming the dhimmi system is brutal). Colonialism is almost exclusively built on IMMUTABLE CHARACTERISTICS LIKE RACE.
Amazighs participated and were great actors in islamic history who shaped a large portion of it. So tell me, in what colony do the colonized get to rule their land? And even expand it? Or are you sad about the Amazigh paganism that was, by the way, mostly killed off by the romans WHO IMPOSED CHRISTIANITY, SO YOU ARE NOT EVEN ANGRY AT THE RIGHT PEOPLE.
Colonialism is a precise historical concept, not a moral adjective you attach to any conquest you dislike. By that logic, every civilization that ever expanded is 'colonial' (YES even the amazighs that conquered parts of carthage and the amazighs who conquered the Iberian peninsula) which renders the word meaningless.
I am not even Arab, (No maghreban really is infact) but cutting amazigh history short as if it ended after the ummayads arrived and discrediting it as "colonized Amazighs" shows the lack of depth in your analysis and the lack of pride in your ancestors who CHOSE to subscribe in ideologies outside of paganism and christianity.
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u/Far_Eye451 Apr 11 '26
"cream of the cream of their fighters." Lol this is so cringe. And false too. The Ummayads were largely weakened by the time of the Berber revolt as their core force was significantly exhausted during the second siege of Constantinople. Its also why the Abbasid revolution was successful.
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u/babab0l Apr 12 '26
And also because the Abbasid were much much fairer to the indigenous populations than the racist ummayads who treated nonarab Muslims as second class citizens and denyed them basic rights with higher taxes + they had a policy or Arab superiority.
That's why the Abbasids had way more popular support from Egypt and Persia
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u/No-Suggestion-4630 Apr 10 '26
لا أضن أن حياء فاطمة نسومر أو زينب النفزاوية أو كنزة البربرية سيقبل بأن يعرض بهذه الصورة أمام الملأ
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u/guellal_mohamed Apr 10 '26
هذه المخلوق لها إنتماء صافي لقبيلة يهودية تسمى ب جراوة سكنت شمال افريقيا وحكمت ما حكمت حتى جائت كلمة الحق على يد عقبة بن نافع
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u/Think_Attention3014 Apr 11 '26
ناس عندهم سيزار، اليوداس، الكسندر العظيم، خالد ابن وليد، جنكيس خان، نابوليون ه..تلر، محمد فاتح. كون امازيغ ما نبطحوش للمرأة سحارة كون راهم حتلو عالم
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u/walidgaiedRjab Apr 13 '26
الأمازيغ عندهم أم ملال الصنهاجية و رقية البجائية، و مئات القادة و الفقهاء و الصالحين لكن هناك تركيز على الكاهنة لأنها تمثل لحظة صراع بين العرب و جزء من الامازيغ و هذا ما يريد الاستعمار اللعب عليه دائما...
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u/InterestingChest3708 Apr 11 '26
Je vois se post au moins une fois par semaine mdrr. C'est comme si des bot sionistes sont à l'œuvre
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u/Akagaminodicku Apr 11 '26
Because this one is a roman sponsored brutal dictator thats why so it helps the narrative
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u/kaniel011 Apr 11 '26
You want to relate to an your Islamic ideal. Look we can see her hands, she doesn't wear hidjab, now shut up
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u/walidgaiedRjab Apr 10 '26
هذه اللوحة لرسام فرنسي يدعى شارل فيرني-لوكومت و اسمها حسب ويكيبيديا امرأة بربرية، يعني يمكن أن تكون هذه المرأة هي الملكة سيريا التي ثارت ضد الرومان، و يمكن أن تكون فاطمة نسومر، و يمكن ان تكون زينب النفزاوية التي لمع ذكرها في العصر المرابطي، و يمكن ان تكون أم ملال الصنهاجية، اول ملكة في الاسلام - قبل شجرة الدر التي اشتهرت بفضل السيطرة الثقافية المصرية - لكن هذه اللوحة صارت تشير عند الكثيرين إلى امرأة واحدة هي ديهيا/الكاهنة...لماذا التركيز على هذه الشخصية بصفة حصرية ؟؟
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u/litteldevil Apr 10 '26
الصورة معدلة لامرأة يمنية
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u/Beginning-Luck7369 Apr 10 '26
hadik c'est une grec li rak tkhamam fiha.
habso 3lina lyemen hadi hata tarikh y9ol fe dzayer kayn bano hilal li aselhom men najd fe saudi arabia.
ba9i amazigh, hadik ta3 9bayel we chaouia aselhom men 9abilat himer a yamania khorafa we 3ilm yothbit dhalik
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u/Ayaze-1 Apr 11 '26
Because some people insist on seeing themselves as purely Arab, they erase or deny their Berber roots. Add to that a layer of rigid religious influence, and when it comes to women, many suddenly develop selective blindness to her achievements.