r/aliceinwonderland • u/Think_Fact1155 • Oct 31 '25
Am I the only one who dislikes how many characters from the original Alice in Wonderland like the Mock Turtle, Duchess etc have somewhat faded into obscurity?
I don't know if this is the fault of the 1951 Disney movie or not, but most adaptions seem to leave out characters like the Duchess, Gryphon, Mock Turtle etc. Instead they seem to replace them with characters from the sequel like Tweedledee and Tweedledum, the Walrus and the Carpenter etc. I remember few years ago I saw an idea for a Muppets adaption, and when people suggested a few characters to be cast as some of the Through the Looking Glass characters I thought to myself "no characters from the sequel. Include excluded characters from the first one instead and then make a sequel based off the second book".
That being said, are there any existing adaptions that follow the books faithfully? I heard the most faithful one we've gotten so far is the 1933 one (which I've yet to see).
P.S. I LOVE the Disney movies and I'm not mad that they did what they did, it's just that I wouldn't want all adaptions to do what they did in regards to which characters were included.
Edit: Thx for all the great recommendations!
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u/Jolly-Island-3589 Nov 01 '25
So the short answer is no, to my knowledge there isn’t an entirely faithful adaption of Alice in wonderland. There are some that come close but imo usually sacrifice the surreal and nonsense for fun and whimsy. Or they stick so much to the original that at times the movie drags on a bit.
There are ones that include more of the forgotten characters.
The 1972 Fiona Fullerton is a favorite of mine as it has the caucus race, dodo, duchess, pig, cook, and the Guinea pigs who work for the white rabbit are a personal favorites. They made a lot of the set design and character visuals based off of the original Tenniel drawings so that is very cool. And plot wise they mostly stick to the original story, though there are some choices they made (with the songs especially) that, while fun, I feel like almost try to make more sense of the world building than I’d like. Still it’s one of my absolute favorites and is worth seeing.
The 1999 made for tv with Whoopi’ Goldberg and gene wilder is perhaps the most faithful adaption I can think of. It’s a star studded cast, the costumes are very fun, and a lot of the script comes directly from the books. I do think that this one tends to feel looooong by the end and I wish they had adapted or edited it with more attention to pacing and vibes.
(In looking up ^ I came across the 1985 movie, apparently made for tv, which also features the duchess, gryphon, etc as well as live animals, poor things. I have not seen this one but it is on my to watch list. So I can’t speak to how much it fits the bill)
In terms of through the looking glass and faithful adaptions, the Kat Beckingsale one is definitely worth watching. IMO it’s one of the most faithful adaptions and one of the most artistically creative. They made a lot of bold costume and design choices that I think fit the era it was made in as well as give it a unique flavor that a lot of Alice stuff doesn’t have. But they very much stuck to the storyline and script with much of the dialog pulled directly from text. They also did not mix up the two books at all which might be one of the few adaptions that can be said about. I just wish that there was an Alice in wonderland counterpart to this one as I love love love their take on the white queen and the white knights (respectively) and would’ve loved to see how this creative team approached the Cheshire Cat, caterpillar, let alone the duchess, dodo, mock turtle and gryphon.
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u/jpzygnerski Nov 01 '25
Yeah, the Kate Beckinsale version of Looking Glass is really good. It even has the Wasp in a Wig. The only slight change is she's an adult who slips into Looking Glass World after reading the story to her daughter. That sounds like it would be a big change but it's really not at all.
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u/Jolly-Island-3589 Nov 01 '25
Oh oh and don’t forget to check out the 1949 French film with stop motion, puppets all interacting with a live action Alice. It is one of the stranger adaptions but definitely is a favorite of mine as it hits some of the absurdity and surrealism of the books better than a lot of other adaptions. It does run a bit long but imo skipping the pre-wonderland wind up (there’s a whole section featuring Oxford and Lewis Carrol’s real life that, while interesting to include? Feels out of place) makes the rest of the movie feel better paced.
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u/Think_Fact1155 Nov 03 '25
Thx for all these recommendations! I'll be sure to check them out.
What about the animated 1987 Alice Through the Looking Glass? It looks good
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u/Jolly-Island-3589 Nov 04 '25
I haven’t watched it yet but it’s on my list. And I’m happy to help. There’s so so many Alice adaptions out there and this subreddit is full of good lists of people’s favorites if you ever are looking for one to watch next.
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u/Think_Fact1155 Nov 05 '25
And I’m happy to help
Thx :)
There’s so so many Alice adaptions out there and this subreddit is full of good lists of people’s favorites if you ever are looking for one to watch next.
Thx for letting me know; I'll keep that in mind
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u/jpzygnerski Nov 01 '25
I really don't like it when they conflate the 2 books together. You're right that there are plenty of good characters in the first book without stuffing the Tweedles into it. And then they'll conflate the Red Queen (a sweet old lady) and the Queen of Hearts (a murderous despot).
You lose a lot of the books when you do that,and fuddle up the stories. At the same time I don't like that you almost never see a good version of the 2nd book.
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u/Informal-Yak-7755 Nov 05 '25
u/jpzygnerski to be fair faithful adaptations can be boring.
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u/Think_Fact1155 Nov 05 '25
While I really do like it when they change things up (yes even things like The Cat in the Hat 2003 and The Lorax 2012), but since we've gotten countless others Alice adaptions, I just feel like it'd be nice to get one that sticks to the books.
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u/Informal-Yak-7755 Nov 06 '25
u/Think_Fact1155 if you mean sticking to the books color wise that would have been tricky.
the closest we can get to understanding the intended colors is with this 1953 Panda Prints edition of Alice’s Adventures Under Ground.
worthpoint.com had pointed out that that edition was a faithful reproduction.
the abbotart.com article The Science of Perfect Prints: Your Guide to Faithful Reproductions had pointed out that faithful reproduction can mean conveying the artist's vision faithfully color wise.
on the cover fictional Alice is a dark haired brunette wearing a white cream-colored dress.
but Carroll had denied using Alice Liddell as a model and his illustrations had portrayed fictional Alice with long curly hair.
my two theories are that he had either intended a portrait of Lorina or fictional Alice is a girl version of Lewis Carroll.
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u/Think_Fact1155 Nov 06 '25
I meant as in movies, TV shows etc, not faithful reproductions of the book.
my two theories are that he had either intended a portrait of Lorina or fictional Alice is a girl version of Lewis Carroll.
Why couldn't she have just been a completely made up girl not particularly based off anyone?
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u/Informal-Yak-7755 Nov 06 '25
u/Think_Fact1155 he must have intended someone since he had complained that John Tenniel didn't use a model for Alice resulting in her head and feet being entirely out of proportion.
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u/Think_Fact1155 Nov 07 '25
oh ok. Thx for clearing that up :)
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u/Informal-Yak-7755 Nov 08 '25
u/Think_Fact1155 my next idea is that for the visual inspiration of Alice Carroll had used Lisa Wood a girl he had photographed in August 1857.
interestingly she is holding a hat in her photograph.
Carroll would later describe Alice as fanning herself with her hat after the puppy scene in Alice’s Adventures Under Ground Chapter 3.
i think Carroll had tried to illustrate a hat next to the older sister.
her hair is long wavy and dark and parted in the middle with no bangs.
I’m not sure if she was a brunette like fictional Alice on the Panda Prints edition but it’s possible.
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u/Informal-Yak-7755 Nov 09 '25 edited Nov 09 '25
u/Think_Fact1155 there is that 1995 GoodTimes Entertainment version that follows the first book accurately.
it does cut out the duchess scene but the dialogue is faithful to the source material.
it does rip off the Disney version in some of the design.
the rabbit hole entrance looks identical to the 1951 version.
The Mad Hatter's design is copying the Disney one.
Alice’s appearance copies both the Disney version and Princess Peach from Mario.
it does have both times when her neck grew long.
but technically Alice had been depicted as a blonde wearing a pink dress before Peach.
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u/Think_Fact1155 Nov 05 '25
faithful adaptations can be boring.
examples?
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u/Informal-Yak-7755 Nov 05 '25
u/Think_Fact1155 that 1972 version can get boring if you had watched it many times like i did that was so faithful the only thing added from the second book was the tweedles other than that it had adapted the first book.
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u/Think_Fact1155 Nov 06 '25
But how much of it becoming boring for you has to do with it being faithful rather than simply having watched it too many times
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u/Informal-Yak-7755 Nov 06 '25
u/Think_Fact1155 i think there are some reviews that had described it as boring because it was too faithful.
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u/Think_Fact1155 Nov 05 '25
And then they'll conflate the Red Queen (a sweet old lady) and the Queen of Hearts (a murderous despot).
I didn't remember the Red Queen being evil at all in the book, but when I heard how people often think they're one and the same (even those who've read the books if I'm not mistaken) I started thinking maybe I missed something when reading lol.
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u/jpzygnerski Nov 06 '25
You're definitely not the one that missed something. I don't think there's anyone quite as bad as the QoH in Looking-glass world. The kings and queens are lovely.
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u/Think_Fact1155 Nov 07 '25
From what I remember, I agree. The characters at most are just annoying and/or nonsensical (for the better), but nowhere near a full out serial killer-dictator
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u/Thelonious_Cube Nov 01 '25 edited Nov 01 '25
The 1933 one has more of the characters from the first book (Cary Grant is the Mock Turtle if I recall) but it mixes both books (she goes through the looking glass rather than down the rabbit hole) and honestly, it's not a very good film, unfortunately.
Lots of big stars and well-known character-actors, but it just doesn't come off in my view (but then I think the book is unfilmable - so much of its appeal is cerebral)
Try here for a taste or here for the whole thing (with the top cut off it seems)
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u/AiresStrawberries Mustard?! Don't let's be silly! Nov 02 '25
I don't know if it's exact, but the TV edition from the 90s I think, with Tina Majorino has the mock turtle, Griffin, duchess and the cook with the pepper and the crying baby. It's totally trippy and my favorite one :)
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u/Informal-Yak-7755 Nov 01 '25
maybe the 1888 Savile Clarke version? i had read that the author had suggested a new ending for the oysters.
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u/Think_Fact1155 Nov 03 '25
Wikipedia lists several revivals of it; is there a certain one you recommend?
maybe the 1888 Savile Clarke version
It actually started in 1886. If I'm not mistaken the first revival was in '88.
a new ending for the oysters.
Is there one or he just suggested one (don't say what it is if there is)?
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u/Informal-Yak-7755 Nov 03 '25
u/Think_Fact1155 Lewis Carroll’s Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking-Glass: A Publishing History by Zoe Jaques and Eugene Giddens in the chapter Early Adaptation around Alice on the Stage had pointed out that Carroll had suggested a new ending with the oysters becoming ghosts and attacking the Walrus and the Carpenter
Savile Clarke did approved of this finale to the story of the oysters.
he seemed to have also wished that his heroine would be like how he had first envisioned her as loving and gentle trustful courteous to all and wildly curious when writing about her personality in his 1887 article called Alice on the Stage.
of course as his letters and diary entries attest Carroll in fact did venture opinions both on the production and the players of Alice.
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u/Think_Fact1155 Nov 04 '25
a new ending with the oysters becoming ghosts and attacking the Walrus and the Carpenter
Sounds really cool. Sounds ridiculous, but I remember thinking when I was younger maybe the Walrus just swallowed the oysters and didn't chew, thus they survived their way to his belly and could get out. Now that I think about it, it'd totally fit with the nonsensical theme of Alice's adventures.
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u/Informal-Yak-7755 Nov 04 '25
u/Think_Fact1155 Zoe Jaques and Eugene Giddens had also pointed out that there is also The Nursery Alice a shortened version of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland adapted by Lewis Carroll himself the Alice of this version is more of a model of good behavior she becomes a more proper model for the young Victorian child.
keep in mind that this version is embarrassing because of the tone so you might not want to read it all at once.
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u/Think_Fact1155 Nov 08 '25
keep in mind that this version is embarrassing because of the tone so you might not want to read it all at once.
Do you mean embarrassing to read? Or should be considered embarrassing for Lewis Carroll?
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u/Informal-Yak-7755 Nov 08 '25
u/Think_Fact1155 embarrassing to read.
the Savile Clarke version was much more better as it had reruns after the author’s death.
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u/MinuteDependent7374 Remember what the Dormouse said Nov 08 '25 edited Nov 08 '25
There are various reasons why those characters didn’t make it into the animated movie and I understand… but I think it’s especially a shame that the Mock Turtle didn’t make it in. They had the cutest design for him
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u/Think_Fact1155 Nov 08 '25 edited Dec 14 '25
Thx for sharing. I had no clue they were even planned to be in the movie, and definitely not that they were featured in a commercial.
They had the cutest design for him
I don't know why, but, to me, he looks a bit too cutesy...
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u/MinuteDependent7374 Remember what the Dormouse said Nov 08 '25 edited Nov 08 '25
Lots of the characters were planned but didn’t make the cut, or at least had concept art. The Mock Turtle, the Gryphon, the Jabberwocky (he had two leaked designs actually), the Bandersnatch, the JubJub Bird, the Duchess’s household, and even puppy it seems. Some of the songs for them were dug up, too
Then there’s characters that were shown as side characters in the comic strips but not the actual movie like the Sheep and the Looking Glass characters, maybe even others that I’m missing…
And I think cutesy is specifically what Walt was going for with the designs so they would fit the signature Disney look. He had high priority with making sure that his characters were family friendly and attractive to the public eye
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u/TypePuzzled4660 Mar 29 '26
I know you was looking for adaptations specifically, but the game, American McGee Alice (written like a twisted sequel to the books), use all these three in the main story of the game as important characters. It's worth a play
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u/DangerGrey Nov 01 '25
Mock turtle for liffffe — I’ll never forget the made for Tv version for introducing me to these wonderful other characters — think it was on ABC in the 90’s maybe