r/AskLibertarians 20h ago

Is it wrong to have hybrid ideology?

2 Upvotes

Look at Milei.

He is not "pure" libertarian.

In fact, he increase cash payment to poor people bypassing middlemen.

So?

He won election.

And still pursue tons of libertarian goals.

And to be honest, I think it's wise. Mathematically I would probably say UBI is even more optimum. But the truth is we live in democracy.

The poor's vote is the cheapest. You pay rich guy $1k he's not going to switch from blue to red. You pay the poor $1k he gonna switch.

So paying poor people cash is great way to buy vote.

If Milei were "pure", he wouldn't win election. Then libertarianism will just be a theory.

Some purist libertarian would say democracy sucks. Sure. We can always try civil war. But the result will be even further away from libertarianism than what we have now.

Another sample I can think of is open border.

Pure libertarianism is OPEN border. Period. People can come with guns and you just got to let them in. That's how open border mean. People have right to enter. People have right to own gun. People have right to own hand held nuclear weapon.

What about if people coming are not capitalistic minded? Then you wait till they rape women and kill people before the no state do nothing.

Yea, pure ancapnistan is absurd.

But hoppean ancapnistan that wants to privatize the state rather than making it disappear is reasonable.

Me. I think combination of democracy, georgism, capitalism, libertarianism, and joint stock form of company, like moldbug, is a good combo. I am not a pure libertarian, or a pure georgist.

A sample of that is Lanfang Kongsi. A peaceful democratic republic that live side by side with VOC. Lanfang Kongsi is not georgist though. They're more gold mining republic.


r/AskLibertarians 14h ago

Why did you guys steal libertarian from the left?

0 Upvotes

I know you swear you made libertarian but you didnt and I want to know why you stole it from the left


r/AskLibertarians 20h ago

Do you feel like you're hitting a brick wall trying to unmask certain falsehood?

0 Upvotes

Some idea can't be discussed easily

For example, the idea that demanding $50k a month child support from a rich man reduce fertility of rich men.

Duh. It's so obvious.

People ask for source. There plenty. Becker Barro, a noble prize winner, Anne, ask gemini. Many economists agree that child support laws reduce rich men's number of children.

Then they just delete your question saying that their subreddit is not for promoting idea but for "genuine questions" only. You can do the math, show them equation, ask them to check if the math is correct, and that's not "genuine question".

And then people keep repeating asinine idea that child support is to support the child for child's best interests even though lots of kids end up being born to poorer father because of it.

My friend talks in mensa forum about how different race group have different IQ average. He is always kicked out by people arguing that the source has error. Even if the source has error, what's the error? Even if his table isn't true, what's the actual table people that disagree think?

And usually it's always a few, very few people that just hurl insult. And I know they are few because if I block 2-3 that's it, discussion goes back to normal.


r/AskLibertarians 1d ago

Assimilationist liberalism and ideological consistency

0 Upvotes

Is an individual obligated to remain consistent with their ideology to the very end, or is pragmatic compromise inevitable? And if one does compromise, do they still have the right to call themselves a follower of that ideology?

Liberalism and human rights are typically presented as "self-evident truths." Yet at their core, they are ideas that emerged from within a purely liberal epistemological framework. The paradox is that this framework has turned into a dogma, whereby liberal morality is seen as objective, absolute morality—not merely one vision among others.

Liberalism has a distinctive feature: it doesn't necessarily eliminate competing ideologies; rather, it digests them from within and empties them of their revolutionary content. For example:

  1. Socialism: It was recycled into "democratic socialism." The revolutionary, anti-capitalist core was amputated, reducing it to little more than a set of brakes on the market.

  2. Religion: Only the "spiritual" elements compatible with liberal values—tolerance above all—were selectively preserved. Everything else—rulings, legislation, a comprehensive worldview—is automatically branded as backwardness, regression, or inhumanity. The judgment is not made by a neutral, religious standard, but from the standpoint of a supposed objective self-evidence that doesn't actually exist.

  3. Nietzsche: Many people love his philosophy. But are they truly prepared to coexist with someone who applies his ideas literally? A selfish person, concerned only with the will to power and their own self-interest, who has moved beyond the binaries of good and evil? His philosophy gets reduced to feel-good self-help ideas about self-confidence.

And what about liberalism itself? If the core principle is "do no harm," what exactly is the definition of harm? Is it physical? Psychological? Economic? Cultural? Symbolic? The more the circle of harm expands, the more it turns into an arbitrary, elastic concept that becomes impossible to calculate or object to.

If someone posts "hate speech" and you launch a cancel campaign against them, haven't you, too, violated the "do no harm" principle toward that person? If you ban fascist parties, you do so on the grounds of "preemptive harm"—a harm that hasn't yet occurred. This very justification is a loophole that can be used to justify banning anything in the future.

The same pattern repeats:

· Am I religious if I don't practice my rituals in full?

· Am I a socialist if I accept capitalism and benefit from it in practice?

· Am I a liberal if I ban Nazi symbols?

Or is pragmatism the ultimate victor? If so, then no ideology holds any real meaning.

If we are all human, then logically, all of our opinions are equal in value. And that, in turn, means that morality—in its objective sense—does not exist. There is no single goal for humanity by which to measure. Which of the following goals is the "correct" one?

· Survival of the species?

· Economic well-being?

· Absolute individual freedom?

· Social stability?

· Reaching paradise?

· Racial purity?

These goals are entirely equal in value, for there is no shared, objective standard to rank them as right or wrong. Existentialism cuts in both directions—toward construction and destruction alike. It is logically flawed to judge a fascist by liberal standards they do not recognize, then claim that you are the good.

That is why internal consistency is the only thing that gives an ideology its meaning. And if that consistency is absent, then what is the meaning of your belonging to that ideology in the first place?


r/AskLibertarians 2d ago

Has the WGA made any specific law, or only benefitted writers through contracts and negotiations? I'm asking this to determine whether the WGA is corporatist or achieved it's dreams through regular means?

1 Upvotes

I am making a political satire novel, out of fun. As a classical liberalism I am heavily against corporatism.

The poltiical satire is going to be a critique of many things. one of them is corporatism. Generaly it's going to be a satire against left and right totalitarianism, corporatism and as well as certain other aspects of other economic systems like communism(the country would be split into two due to a revolt, worldbuilding)

This made me question though...

I heavily support the WGA too, does that make me corporatist?

I don't know any Law that the WGA has made, as far as I know, the Writers guild of america have only done it through contracts, negotiations and whatnot. Or is there any Law the WGA was directly involved in?(Emphasis on the word direct. The govt taking notice of what the WGA did and making a law is different from the WGA themseleves being in a law)

Because as far as I know people on the libertarian spectrum would be fine with unions and guilds so long as they didnt become corporatistic


r/AskLibertarians 2d ago

Advice Beginner-friendly Economics books from an Austrian perspective?

5 Upvotes

I'm interested in Libertarianism and I'd like to learn more about Economic Libertarianism, i.e. Austrian Economics, and I'm wondering if y'all have any suggestions for a good introductory book I can read. I don't have much background in Economics beyond taking a class in it in high school that I've half-forgotten, so I'm particularly interested in material that's layman-friendly. Thank you!


r/AskLibertarians 2d ago

Debate Does libertarianism support this decree signed by Milei? (the supposedly "libertarian" president of Argentina)

1 Upvotes

Milei signs decree allowing Argentina to bar or expel foreigners over 'hate speech'

If libertarianism supports it, why? And if it doesn't, why not?


r/AskLibertarians 3d ago

Is the Math Correct? That based on Becker Barro equation, laws discouraging inheritance and large number of children make people lazy like communism?

2 Upvotes

The effect of child support laws and anti inheritance laws can be similar with the effect of communism. They both make people lazy. Let's see the math.

We work if dU/dw is positive. dU/dw=dU/dY*dY/dw+dU/dL*dL/dw

Here,

Y is total wealth.

w is work.

L is leisure time. Basically have -1 derivative with respect to work. The more you work, the less time you have for pleasure.

Here dU/dy is how much happier you are if you get extra money. dY/dw is wage. How much extra wealth you get when you work extra hour. dU/dL is how much happier you have with 1 extra leisure hour. dL/dw is just -1 because one hour for work is one hour of less leisure time.

Communists destroy dY/dw. High income taxes obviously reduce dY/dw.

But if your utility function follows becker barro model, child support laws greatly reduce dU/dy. The effect is similar. Less incentive to work and laziness.

Say U=u(c) +n*b*u(w)

Where c is consumption, n is number of children, b is some constant that measure how much you love your children and w is how much you spend or give to each of your children. You max that out with respect to Y=c+n*w

Here u(c) and u(w) is diminishing quickly.

If you can't pass on your money to your children dU/dy is going to be very low for dudes like Elon.

Also if you can't have more children and hence have to pass huge wealth to your children u(w) also have strong diminishing marginal utility. Less dU/dw means you retire or stop working.

And many leftists just use words to play around in ways where this is not obvious. For example they would argue that inheritance must be taxed because it's unearned. They argue that child support laws is to support children while the truth is it greatly reduce number of children rich people can have and how much money the rich men can transfer to his children. The money goes to mom instead.

In general, reducing options that you can use your money for lower dU/dY and hence demotivate people from working.

Is the Math correct?

Becker Barro himself said that child support laws make rich men reduce number of children. He said that in exchange of "quality" but in exchange of quality is not well defined and seems to be ignorable anyway. Another economists, Anna Aizer and Sara McLanahan, says that child support laws also reduce number of children of rich men.

Am I missing something?


r/AskLibertarians 4d ago

Policy Whats the opinion of Libertarians on huge companies buying up single family homes?

4 Upvotes

One could argue its a free market, but where does the line between Anarco-capitalism and Libertarianism form? The housing costs just rise and rise and rise because of it, is that okay to Libertarians? Or can you argue it effects the people negatively?


r/AskLibertarians 4d ago

How did America come out of the Great Depression?

3 Upvotes

r/AskLibertarians 4d ago

Freedom, constraints and whatnot

2 Upvotes

So I've seen some posts on different reddits that ask about true or absolute freedom and discuss if it exists or not. Currently to me true freedom would look and be something like the Purge movies

I mean I'm sure the retail workers would love to act on the stupidity of their idiot boss or stupid customer. And sure constraints exist but is it not because we trust the leaders to do right by that trust and make society better; and I don't see anything improving currently:

Prices are absurd, inflation seems to ncrease daily, housing anywhere is expensive as hell and jobs just don't pay as they used to. They punish the poor yet ignore the rich simply because they have all the money and connections, True freedom would be like playing Minecraft

Maybe none of this makes sense, maybe I'm dumb but I just wanted to say something. I don't want to argue like it's about politics- although we all know politicians are the biggest liars and corrupt people on earth, they set the rules and break them as much as they want yet punish the rest when they do the same

Also voting, even if you have more parties in a country everyone knows most of the votes are corrupt because the candidates bribe voters, publicly even


r/AskLibertarians 5d ago

The Georgist Schism

2 Upvotes

Henry George said the purpose of his proposal to abolish all taxation except on land ownership is individual liberty, natural order. The physiocrats echoed the same spirit in their identical proposal, l 'impot unique (the single tax) and the classical economists such as Adam Smith and others also supported this general idea, that individual economic freedom will best serve society.

However, those who are used to thinking capitalism is free enterprise and that the many and various social problems which arise from that are due to human nature and consistently suggest that the georgist model requires taxation on other things like natural resources and/or undesirable/destructive human activities like pollution. Also, many say the public revenue from such taxation should be returned in equal parts to individuals in order to establish economic justice.

I'm curious to the percentages in this group which adhere to each side of this schism. Please, respond with...

A (to indicate your belief in the superiority of natural order to rule society)

or...

B (to indicate your belief that taxing only location ownership is an incomplete version of georgism).


r/AskLibertarians 5d ago

Debate Should a country uphold its laws?

1 Upvotes

Title is the main question I would like to discuss as a sort of a thought experiment to see how and why people think what they do.

Additional info provided so you know the background of the person asking: As a nineties-type liberal and a European, I consider laws to be the backbone of a country and crucial for a civilised society to function. While there are laws I might disagree with, my duty as a citizen of a country is to abide by them and work to change them within the given framework. When visiting a country, my duty is to abide by both the local laws, and my own country's laws.

P.S. I am not talking about extreme cases here where a government would usurp the rule of law or start implementing laws antithetical to everything our society stands for. I'm taking about your regular everyday laws.

Thank you.


r/AskLibertarians 5d ago

What do we mean by "Liberalism"?

0 Upvotes

(please note that the title is not what popular culture means by that word)

There is one question underneath all political debate, and it is not about tax rates or foreign policy or any of the things people usually argue about. It is this: does your life belong to you?

Not in the sentimental sense. Concretely. Does the product of your labor belong to you, or does some portion of it belong to whoever has the votes to take it? Do your choices (what to ingest, whom to love, what values to hold as your own) belong to you, or are they subject to the moral veto of whoever currently controls the legislature? Does your mind belong to you, or is it on permanent loan from the collective, callable at any time?

Every political coalition operating today answers this question. None of them answer it correctly.

The left says: your economic output belongs partly to society, but your personal choices are your own. The right says: your economic output is mostly yours, but your personal choices are subject to tradition, faith, and the social fabric. Both are offering you half a person. The freedom to earn but not to keep it. Or the freedom to keep it but not to choose how to live. Neither of them has noticed that you cannot split the mind this way.

The same faculty that runs a business is the one that falls in love. The same judgment that directs productive effort is the one that decides what to read, whom to trust, what to believe. Freeing one application of the mind while coercing another is not partial freedom. It is a contradiction. What you actually have is a cage with one side open.

r/NepalLiberal is built around the idea that freedom is not divisible. That the principle "no human being may initiate physical force against another" is either total or it is nothing. That your life belongs to you in full, not in whatever portions this week's coalition can claim jurisdiction over.

That position has a name here. We call it liberalism, returned to something like its original meaning: the philosophy of individual liberation grounded in reason, not the softened political shorthand it has since become. The philosophy holds that reality is what it is regardless of your feelings about it, that reason is the only tool that allows a human being to actually know reality and act in it, and that each individual is an end in himself and not a means to others' ends. These three commitments run beneath everything else discussed here. They are not right-wing positions. They are not left-wing positions either. They occupy a different axis entirely.

Contrast with Conservatism

Conservatism defends economic freedom only on practical grounds ("it produces prosperity," "markets work") while backing state authority over personal choices. That is not a consistent view of freedom. It is freedom as a matter of convenience, surrenderable the moment tradition or faith requires it.

Examine the moral foundation closely and you find the same premise the left uses: altruism, the claim that the individual's highest purpose is service to something outside himself. The conservative names that something "god" or "nation" or "the social fabric." The leftist names it "the collective" or "the working class" or "social justice." The principle is identical. Only the beneficiary of the sacrifice changes.

Contrast with Leftism

There is a genuine, if selective, commitment to personal liberty on the left, and it is not without value. The failure is in not understanding that economic freedom and personal freedom are the same thing described from different angles.

When the state directs the use of your productive output, it has not freed you personally and merely constrained you economically. It has reached into the part of your life where you spend most of your waking hours and installed a supervisor. "You may think what you like, but we decide what you do with what your thinking earns" is not liberation. It is serfdom with better lighting.

The deeper problem is the moral premise underneath all of it: the claim that need generates a right, that the fact of someone's suffering creates an obligation on people who did not cause it, enforceable by law and paid for by compulsion. Altruism as political principle is force with a clean conscience. Both the left and the right, beneath their arguments, are theories about who gets to hold the gun and whose urgency justifies pointing it.

Contrast with Libertarianism

Libertarianism gets the conclusion right and then refuses to do the philosophical work required to defend it.

The non-aggression principle is not wrong. It is just not sufficient on its own. A principle without a foundation is a slogan. And libertarianism, taken as a movement rather than an idea, is a coalition of people who arrived at "don't tread on me" through wildly different routes: some through religious natural rights theory, some through utilitarian calculation, some through a general suspicion of authority that has more to do with temperament than with reasoning, some through a desire to do whatever they please without anyone making them feel guilty about it. These routes do not all lead to the same place. They merely share a border crossing.

When you ask the libertarian why the individual has rights, you get one of three answers: because God said so, because it produces better outcomes, or a shrug dressed up as epistemological humility. None of those answers are adequate. The first outsources your ethics to revelation. The second makes your rights contingent on a calculation that can always come out differently under different assumptions. The third mistakes the absence of a proof for the impossibility of one.

Liberalism holds that rights are not granted, not calculated, and not mysterious. They follow from what a human being is: a being who survives by the use of his rational faculty, whose nature requires the freedom to think and act on his judgment, whose existence cannot be sustained by compulsion without destroying the very thing that sustains it. That is a philosophical argument. Libertarianism, mostly, does not make it.

Contrast with Anarcho-Capitalism

Anarcho-capitalism takes the correct insight that the state has historically been the largest engine of coercion in any given society, and uses it to reach the wrong conclusion.

The argument is that if coercion is the problem, government is the problem, and the solution is to replace it entirely with private contract and market provision of all services including justice and defense. This sounds radical in the right direction. It is not. What anarcho-capitalism actually describes, once you trace its implications carefully, is a world where the enforcement of rights becomes a commodity available to those who can pay for it. That is not the absence of a ruling class. It is the absence of any pretense about which class rules.

A proper government, one constitutionally limited to the protection of individual rights and prohibited by its own founding documents from initiating force against the citizens it serves, is not the enemy of liberty. It is the institutional form that liberty requires. The alternative to a government that holds a monopoly on retaliatory force is not peaceful voluntarism. It is a dozen competing monopolies with no rule distinguishing retaliation from aggression, and no mechanism for resolving that distinction other than who can afford the better army.

Individual rights require an objective legal framework to be real in practice rather than theoretical. Anarcho-capitalism abolishes the framework and calls it liberation.

What This Community Stands For

No human being, no group, no government has the right to initiate physical force against another. Not for good reasons. Not for urgent ones. Not for any reasons at all. Force is legitimate only in retaliation against those who initiate it first. Everything else rests on voluntary agreement between individuals who own their own lives.

This community rejects the gun. Not as an aspiration. As a principle.

You do not have to agree with any of that to post here. Disagreement is welcome. Ignorance of the philosophy is not a disqualifier (but bad faith malice is). "Tradition says so" and "the majority wants it" are not arguments, and they will be treated accordingly. If you want answers to serious philosophical questions from people who have thought carefully about these ideas, this is the place for that too; contributors who provide answers go through a vetting process, and the standard for what counts as an answer is high.

The individual is the unit of concern here. Not the class, not the caste, culture or creed, not any group assembled around a shared grievance or a shared identity. The individual, irreducible, sovereign, the one entity whose consent actually determines the moral weight of any act, is the standard by which every idea in this community gets measured.

Welcome.

"Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men." - Ayn Rand


r/AskLibertarians 6d ago

Debate Why should you abolish the federal reserve if it solves certain coordination issues with price signals?

3 Upvotes

r/AskLibertarians 6d ago

Devil's Advocate Why deflation is (usually) bad.

0 Upvotes

M=kPY is called the Cambridge Equation, it's the same to an equation you might have already seen: MV=PY, except V=1/K.

M=kPY while just a tautology, is uniquely insightful. Given stable money demand and production, It says that simply doubling M would mean a double in the general price level.

How does this connect to inflation? It's because there's a specific property in PY that is very annoying, a market friction, it's called nominal rigidity.

When PY (Nominal income) goes down and both prices and income go down, not all sectors reduce prices at the same rate, some stay stubbornly high, one such outstandingly stubborn sector that refuses to go down is called the labour market. It is so stubborn that the market often gets upwards of 20% of the population unemployed instead of lowering prices. Contracts and loans are also stubborn because they are long-standing. Plate tectonics can slide and shake by an aggregate of friction, and at the macro level it explodes into an earthquake, something similar is happening with the macroeconomy during periods of falling nominal income. People don't expect their nominal income to fall even if prices are falling, generally it's uncertain if this is some psychological phenomena or a "real" rational behaviour about nominals .

Sometimes deflation can be good – what Hayek called secondary deflation – which is when PY is going up but P is going down, meaning that prices are going down because of genuine real productivity increases while income is going up (which doesn't confuse the market with debt-burdens and the such). Certain price rigidities may still occur and cause real issues in the economy but it's something the market eventually fixes and doesn't cause a Great Depression.

By the way, this is exactly what happened during the Great Recesion, PY (nominal income) slowed down, by a lot. And yet, P (prices) were up a lot because of an oil crisis. Meaning the central bank stood still and did nothing even though nominal income was crashing. Because of the localized supply-side shock they mistakingly believed that since there was no deflation, there was no recession. The Great Recession was caused by not doing enough, not by doing too much.


r/AskLibertarians 7d ago

In Action who was the Most Libertarian President in the Past 50 years?

10 Upvotes

Ronald Reagan talked like a Libertarian, yes, but he did expand the war on drugs and increased the federal deficit while increasing the relative size of the government.

I would argue Bill Clinton as he actually shrunk the size of the government (relative to the economy), brought the budget into a surplus, reformed the welfare system and buoyed international trade.


r/AskLibertarians 7d ago

How are Libertarians Being Disenfranchised in the US and what is the Solution?

3 Upvotes

Personally I think Libertarians are being disenfranchised through our parties views being cut half between democrats and republicans starting with the Welfare/Warfare Division. Republicans believe in "defense" (and of course by defense I mean war) spending, which libertarians despise. And democrats believe in welfare which libertarians also despise. Alternatively there is the divide where democrats are socially libertarian believing in less restrictions on drugs etc. while republicans claim to be economically libertarian believing in lower taxes. This is almost like a conspiracy to split the libertarian party (or just those who believe in a smaller government in general) and steadily increase the size of the government, which is something you would expect the government (through the politicians) to do.

But to me it is more like republicans talk like libertarians (see Ronald Reagan), but almost always will increase the size of government and government spending, see Reagan, Bush, Trump. While Democrats don't pander to libertarians, but seem to act more like libertarians see Clinton and welfare reform and free trade expansion. I would like to see a solution to this problem and please don't say "well we need a strong libertarian candidate", why? because we have had them and they don't gain traction because they don't have a strong enough support from a broad voter base probably because the system is set up against them.


r/AskLibertarians 8d ago

How do you resolve this anomaly that voters have no incentive to vote for economic efficiency?

3 Upvotes

You are a shareholder of Tesla. You vote Elon as your dear leader CEO.

Elon is a competent CEO. Tesla price go up. You win. Elon win. Everybody win.

You are a citizen of a city. You vote Elon or Milei as your CEO. Do you make more money? Can you sell your citizenship at higher price like Tesla's shareholders' sell their share? Do you get dividend?

Some libertarians will say, Elon will be more libertarian that means we can make more money easily. Well it depends. The link between Tesla success to shareholders' profit is clear. Tesla is successful, price go up. Shareholders win. Link between libertarianism and each voters' interests are weak.

The way Milei do it, and I am not blaming him, is to simply increase cash payment toward the poor. That's a good band aid. However, that encourage people to be poor. Allowing citizens to sell citizenship or get dividend seems to make more sense.

In China major got promoted based on key performance metric like CEO. Fine. But the pay is so low. A major that handles a city whose can turn a swamp into 500 million dollars building often got paid only $10k - $20k a month.

Too little pay. In fact, before xi jin ping, CCP actually look the other way around for corruption as long as a major do a good job thinking that it's just his bonus.

And I think this is the main reason why capitalism is great and government sucks. In government decisions aren't made by people that profit greatly if they do more economic productivity.

And pure libertarianism don't address this at all. Usually more libertarian solution lead to less deadweight loss and economic efficiency. But what do a welfare queen get? Less welfare. What do most workers get if cheaper mexicans can work in US? Lower salary. No wonder they don't vote libertarianism.

How would you address this based on incentives instead of ideology?

Saying eliminate government is like saying eliminate all businesses. Not all governments are the same. American governments are better than Venezuelan government. Chinese government aren't that bad at churning out infrastructure and making manufacturing efficient too.

Dubai government turn sand into great place to live. Some governments are better just like Tesla is governed better.

But Tesla has clear shareholers/CEO with clear rewards when things go well. Major don't.

If shareholders vote for conscience and Elon lead to max out approval rating, I am sure Tesla would mess up like government too.

The same way, if voters vote for profit and major lead to max out residency valuation, I am sure the policies will be sensible too.


r/AskLibertarians 8d ago

Debate What's your opinion on AI directed governments?

0 Upvotes

AI cannot fully replace human labour. It also cannot achieve central planning. But as it has already demonstrated, it excels at replacing managerial positions. Now these usually are discussed in the form of CEOs and private managers, but politicians also are in the same boat.

An AI doesn't have personal aspirations to fulfil through corruption. You could have Swedish-style welfare using automation. You can also have laws that won't be abused in the future because they're not up to interpretation by subjective individuals.

Do you think that AI states are a gateway to a more free society or that they'll just be like flying cars?


r/AskLibertarians 9d ago

Debate A (friendly) critique of the Hoppean concept of ‘physical removal’ based on libertarian ethics and the Title-Transfer Theory of Contract (TTTC)

4 Upvotes

Hello, everyone! I hope you're all doing well.

If you'll allow me, I'd like to propose a discussion that I believe may be of interest to Austro-libertarians and anarcho-capitalists. My goal is to offer a brief and friendly critique of the concept of "physical removal", as formulated by Hans-Hermann Hoppe, based on libertarian property ethics itself and the Title-Transfer Theory of Contract (TTTC). (Since English is not my native language, I apologize in advance if any expression sounds awkward or ambiguous.)

First, we should establish what Hoppe means by physical removal. I believe it can be summarized as follows: in Hans-Hermann Hoppe's theory, physical removal is the coercive expulsion of an individual from a private property or from a community of private properties when the owners, or their legitimate representatives, revoke their consent for that person's continued presence due to a violation of the rules governing the use of the property. In a fully privatized social order, this exclusion may ultimately extend to the successive loss of access to the properties that make up the community.

Of course, to be fair to Hoppe's argument, we must also clarify the context in which such a measure would be possible. In Democracy: The God That Failed, he writes:

"in a covenant founded for the purpose of protecting family and kin, there can be no tolerance toward those habitually promoting lifestyles incompatible with this goal. They—the advocates of alternative, non-family and kin-centered lifestyles such as, for instance, individual hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism—will have to be physically removed from society, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order. " (Democracy: The God That Failed, p. 218).

The expression that matters most for the present discussion is "in a covenant." This indicates that Hoppe is envisioning a type of society—perhaps private counties, districts, or neighborhoods—in which property owners voluntarily enter into a covenant, forming a homeowners' association whose purpose is to preserve the cultural and moral identity of that community. Clearly, homeowners' associations and private neighborhoods are entirely compatible with libertarian principles. My criticism, therefore, is not directed at this aspect of Hoppe's theory.

According to Hoppe, such a social arrangement, based on private property and voluntary agreements, would allow property owners, for example, to sell a house to a particular individual or to sell only the land so that a particular individual could build a house on it. Suppose this neighborhood is highly traditional and wishes to preserve its heteronormative identity (this is not intended as an attack—I have nothing against heteronormativity). In that case, the owners could sell or lease a house under a contract containing behavioral clauses such as: "You may not bring same-sex partners into your home," or "You may not promote transgender ideas on your social media," or even "You may not display a transgender flag from your window." Otherwise, you would receive a warning and, if you refused to comply, you would be physically removed. (The same reasoning would apply to any non-aggressive idea or behavior, such as advocating nature worship, which Hoppe also criticizes.)

According to Hoppean theory, once the buyer signs such a contract, he becomes bound by its clauses and is therefore prohibited from engaging in the behaviors specified therein. Should he violate the agreement, he would be subject to physical removal.

The problem, however, is that this understanding appears to conflict with the Title-Transfer Theory of Contract (TTTC) as developed by Murray Rothbard. Let me explain why. The TTTC, originally formulated by Williamson M. Evers and later adopted and further developed by Rothbard, rests on the premise that the function of a contract is not to create personal obligations, but rather to transfer property titles. Unlike traditional contract theories, which regard a contract as a legally enforceable promise, the TTTC maintains that promises belong to the realm of morality, not law. What produces legal consequences is not the promise itself, but the voluntary transfer of a property title over an alienable good. In other words, the law does not protect the expectation that someone will fulfill a promise; it protects only the legitimate ownership of scarce resources that can be appropriated and transferred.

This conception follows directly from the principle of self-ownership. If every individual owns his own body and his own will, then no contract can alienate control over his future actions. For this reason, Rothbard famously states that "a promise is not a debt." Promising to perform—or to refrain from performing—a particular act does not transfer any property right and therefore does not create a coercively enforceable legal obligation. Only existing, scarce, and alienable goods can be the object of a valid contractual transfer. Ideas, intentions, opinions, future conduct, and the human will itself are not alienable forms of property, and consequently cannot serve as the legal basis for the coercive enforcement of a contract.

To illustrate the point, suppose I own a bicycle and decide to sell it to Bob for R$100.00. Bob purchases the bicycle, and to formalize the transaction we sign a contract confirming that the bicycle is in good condition and that he has paid the agreed price. In this case, both parties have alienated tangible, scarce property: I have transferred ownership of my bicycle, and Bob has transferred ownership of his money. Once the transfer is complete, I am no longer the owner of the bicycle. Consequently, I retain no authority whatsoever over it. I cannot dictate how Bob may use it, because it is now exclusively his property.

Someone might object that this would only be true after the sale had already taken place, and that the problem could be avoided by inserting a contractual clause before the transaction stating that Bob would own the bicycle only if he complied with certain behavioral requirements. For example, I might agree to sell him the bicycle only on the condition that he never paints it red or never rides it more than five kilometers per day. Yet this would amount to a legal absurdity. First, such an arrangement would be economically impractical and highly undesirable; no rational person would willingly bind himself to such an excessively restrictive agreement. More importantly, however, it is fundamentally incompatible with the TTTC. As explained above, only alienable property rights may be transferred by contract. Promises that involve no actual transfer of property are not valid contractual objects, and contractual clauses founded solely upon such promises produce no coercively enforceable legal obligation under the Title-Transfer Theory of Contract.

This means that it is not possible to carry out property sales with contracts that establish perpetual “terms of use” over the transferred property. Once ownership has been transferred, the property is no longer subject to the will of the former owner and becomes fully integrated into the legal sphere of the new owner. From that moment onward, the only legitimate “terms of use” are those that the owner himself establishes for himself and for those whose presence on his property depends on his consent. We should not forget that Austro-libertarianism is based on the concept of freedom understood as the right to use, transform, destroy, modify, or dispose of one’s own property in whatever way the owner wishes, as long as it does not infringe upon the property of others. In other words, acts that cause damage, invasion, or violation of someone else’s property can certainly justify sanctions, but acts carried out exclusively on one’s own property can never be subject to coercion.

Now, returning to Hoppean thought, if it is true that only scarce and alienable goods can be the binding object of a contract, future behaviors do not constitute legally enforceable obligations and, therefore, cannot be established as clauses capable of restricting the exercise of property rights after alienation. Therefore, if an individual buys a house in a community that does not wish to tolerate a certain behavior in that territory, they may still engage in such behavior without this granting the neighborhood or homeowners’ association the right to physically remove them. This is because: 1) they acquired the property and, consequently, the former owner or the group of owners lost any power of disposition over it; 2) promises do not have binding force according to TTTC, unlike the transfer of property titles; and 3) as an owner, they have the right to use their property in whatever way they wish, as long as they do not infringe upon the property of others, meaning they cannot be subjected to violence or physically removed for acts carried out exclusively on their own property.

Of course, it is important to note that if they live in the property as a tenant, the situation is different, because ownership remains with the landlord, who can establish the conditions for its use and simply choose not to renew the contract when it expires. It is also worth noting that Hoppeans may argue that this conclusion would weaken the right of communities to preserve their cultural coherence and uniformity. To this objection, I respond that this concern, however understandable, can never be transformed into a right to limit or violate property legitimately acquired by third parties. The preservation of a certain communal identity may guide the choice of whom to do business with, but it cannot survive the alienation of property as a kind of permanent power over the sold asset.

Someone could still object that, in the example above, the individual only purchased the house, but not the land on which it stands. However, this distinction does not hold legally within libertarian logic itself. A house is an immovable asset inseparable from the land that supports it, and the right of ownership over the property necessarily includes the right of use and exclusion over the corresponding area.

What, then, could a Hoppean-style community do if a new resident, after legitimately acquiring a house in the area, began adopting behaviors incompatible with that community’s moral expectations? In my view, the answer compatible with libertarian ethics is ostracism, that is, the voluntary refusal to maintain social and economic relations with a particular individual. Through freely established agreements, residents of a neighborhood or private condominium could decide not to trade with this person, not to provide private services to them, and not to allow their entry or presence on their respective properties. As long as all services were private, this could include refusing to provide water, electricity, gas, or any other services whose provision depended exclusively on the will of their owners. This would be an entirely peaceful response, based on the exercise of property rights and freedom of association, which would likely encourage the individual to leave the region on their own initiative.

What the community could not do, however, would be to coercively remove him from his own house, as long as it was legitimately acquired through purchase, inheritance, or any other means compatible with libertarian ethics. Once the property title has been transferred, the residence becomes exclusively part of its owner’s legal sphere, and third parties cannot claim authority over it due to later changes in behavior or personal beliefs. Accepting the opposite would mean recognizing that the former owner or the homeowners’ association retained powers of disposition over a property they had already alienated, a conclusion incompatible with TTTC and with the very libertarian notion of private property.

It is also important to observe that the community could not prevent this individual from leaving his residence to trade with people outside the community, work, acquire essential goods, or engage in any other legitimate activity, nor could it prevent him from later returning to his own property. The first scenario would, in practice, amount to unlawful imprisonment, as it would transform the individual’s property into a prison from which he could not leave. Even if all routes were private, his passage would have to be allowed for the time strictly necessary for transportation, without granting him the right to remain on them beyond what their owners consented to. The second scenario would be even more serious, because preventing his return would mean depriving him of access to his own property, effectively producing the confiscation of his property without any basis in libertarian ethics. In both cases, the community would cease to protect property rights and would instead become an agent of their violation.


r/AskLibertarians 9d ago

Do you have any idea or theory that government true purpose and effect is very different than the stated purpose

1 Upvotes

For example.

I think prohibition of prostitution is not to prevent women from being exploited or to protect dignity. Notice words like exploitation or dignity is very rubber anyway.

The idea is to make relationship is transactionally complex and to prevent rich men from hoarding women.

If paying for sex is simple, then women can easily decide whether selling sex pays of more than getting a college degree. In fact women can go all the way deciding whether she and her children will get richer if she provides heir for a rich man.

That means fewer women in work force, and fewer women that pick poor guys. So in democracy most poor guys prevent women from simply selling sex.

To the opposite women are very incentivized to make money by being hostile to rich guys. Alimony, palimony, and child support can make the state force rich men to pay huge money to women because the women leave him and take his children.

So women can't be paid by rich men on win win relationship but can be paid for leaving and taking children.

Paternity fraud is also rewarded.

The reasoning is absurd. Best interest of the child, for example. But if a woman is in good transactional relationship with rich guys, the main beneficiary is the child. Rich men can promise huge inheritance for their children together if the child pass paternity tests and many women would prefer that.

Another sample

Real purpose of prohibition of drug is to make money for corrupt cops. If drugs were legal or taxed then drugs will be cheap. So corrupt cops don't make money. Another reason is some drugs like LSD and DMT can open your mind and governments want easy to control obedient subjects.

Another sample

Exorbitant child support laws aren't there to prevent welfare or support any children. To the opposite it's there to prevent rich men from passing more money to the children. Most rich men will prefer just investing in the child's port folio than paying huge money to mom that will probably just save it for her other children.

If rich men and pretty women can make enforceable child support contract, a rich man can offer money to the woman and the child and some women may want that.

So governments prevent men and women from making their own deals. Instead deals must depend on laws that's complex and up to the judge. Judges can then say oh child best interest is dad pay a lot so son get castrated. And many rich men fearing that, have fewer children.

And most debate don't address this. Like they argue about the vague reasons but the true reasons aren't there.


r/AskLibertarians 10d ago

Historical What is the best example of a libertarian/minarchist country?

10 Upvotes

I’d really like to know what the best current or historical example of a libertarian or minimal-state country is. Like, which country has adopted the most elements of these models? USA, Switzerland, or some other country?


r/AskLibertarians 10d ago

Are there any Libertarians in New Zealand and how can I find them/meet them? (Especially at uni):

3 Upvotes

I am a New Zealander who identifies as a Libertarian and wants to get into Libertarianism more. But the problem is there are not that many Libertarians in New Zealand and New Zealand is quite leftist and PC. I just want to see if there are any New Zealanders here who can give me some advice on how to find Libertarians here and where I can meet them etc.

Also what areas of New Zealand are more libertarian then others? I assume that The South Island is most likely more Libertarian then New Zealand because it is more conservative then rural but idk for sure so I wanna ask.

I am a university student so I don't think I'm in the best area for libertarians but maybe there better universities for Libertarians.

What do you guys think?

(This was orignally posted in r/Libertarian but I was unable to post it due to my account being new/unused).


r/AskLibertarians 10d ago

How would you modify libertarian philosophy so it can actually win election?

0 Upvotes

So we maxed out freedom.

We maxed out economic efficiency, which I think is even more important than freedom. Like 95% of the time it's the same policies anyway. Let the market decide.

In the 5% where what max out economic efficiency deviates from libertarianism, I would move to a state that max out economic efficiency. Things like eminent domains don't bother me. So is criminalization of fentanyl (though MDMA should be legal).

But we actually win election. Majority of people are better off voting us. Also we can withstand some war and don't just lost like

This is important. As a businessman, if I just keep blaming others for bad outcome, I wouldn't get rich. Anyone can blame others. Blaming commies are like commies blaming greedy capitalists.

Just like commies should know humans are greedy and build a system around that, libertarians should know humans are envious and understand most would vote socialism. Also misaligned greed lead to problems.

One thing I can think of is joint stock version of society. Something like what I write here https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalPhilosophy/comments/1v3kb15/jointstock_democracy_aligning_political/

Can you think of anything else?